Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51967671]I mean who fucking cares the point is that the study is completely unrelated to jontron's statement[/QUOTE] I care cause Judas is just plain wrong, angry, and calling me a racist. So yah I will respond to his post.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967675]I care cause Judas is just plain wrong, angry, and calling me a racist.[/QUOTE] and you're just plain wrong saying that study is related to what jontron said

can we talk about the fact that you literally [i]just[/i] got unbanned and you're on holidays overseas and you're already shitposting in topics posting irrelevant shit [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] the study isn't even relevant to what jontron said in the first place ffs

[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51967687]can we talk about the fact that you literally [i]just[/i] got unbanned and you're on holidays overseas and you're already shitposting in topics posting irrelevant shit [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] the study isn't even relevant to what jontron said in the first place ffs[/QUOTE] Irrelevant shit? The study was a conversation to be had for pages on here and was brought up in the video. If you guys want to cease the debate on its findings I am fine with that though. There is no clear conclusion or answer to why this statistic exists and even the study itself doesn't seem to infer anything from all the sources I could find. If anyone wants to pay the $35 to buy the journal go ahead, but I ain't doing that. [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] Though the holidays has been great! I just am really excited to be back and posting per the rules again. Learned my mistake and won't let that happen again.

[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51967687]can we talk about the fact that you literally [i]just[/i] got unbanned and you're on holidays overseas and you're already shitposting in topics posting irrelevant shit [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] the study isn't even relevant to what jontron said in the first place ffs[/QUOTE] If he goes for 24 hours without shitposting he gets severe withdrawal symptoms

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967709]Irrelevant shit? The study was a conversation to be had for pages on here and was brought up in the video. If you guys want to cease the debate on its findings I am fine with that though. There is no clear conclusion or answer to why this statistic exists and even the study itself doesn't seem to infer anything from all the sources I could find. If anyone wants to pay the $35 to buy the journal go ahead, but I ain't doing. [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] Though the holidays has been great! I just am really excited to be back and posting per the rules again. Learned my mistake and won't let that happen again.[/QUOTE] It doesn't fucking matter why the data in the study exists. "Young black people below the top income percentile are incarcerated at a higher rate than young white people of the same income bracket" has NOTHING TO DO with the claim "WEALTHY BLACKS COMMIT MORE CRIME THAN POOR WHITES" in fact, the study [I]directly contradicts that statement[/I], in that it explicitly states that young black people in households that make more than 69k annually aren't any more likely to be incarcerated than their white counterparts.

"There is no clear conclusion or answer to why this statistic exists" doesn't mean anything when you can't even interpret the data correctly lmao

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51966839]My favorite is still Jon "Aryan Safari" Jafari[/QUOTE] My favorite politically incorrect names are Ben "Empty my 9 into the welfare line" Garrison and Mike "Frag grenade for the fag parade" Pence

[QUOTE=Kaelnukem;51966604]You'd think with all the mental gymnastics Boogie does he'd lose some weight. There's a point where you can't just keep putting up excuses for someone's behaviour and it seems to me that Boogie would only get angry if it got physical.[/QUOTE] This is actually a pretty [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNEAe-pMvGs"]asinine [/URL]and [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7iTP-HaoFg"]insensitive [/URL]post the dude has a medical condition that is preventing him from losing it, and he has been trying and succeeding in losing weight for years now in fact he has continuously been extremely supportive of others as well as open minded about the topic. The dude has been nothing but understanding and caring. The reason the guy acts the way he does is because he literally cannot mentally or physically handle the stress of genuinely calling someone out in anger. Sure he has his Francis persona, but that's not really the same thing. [QUOTE=AaronM202;51966486]The twist no one saw coming: Youtube was in fact the Nazi's final scheme, 70 years in the making. Google was founded by Hitler after fleeing to Argentina. All according to Reichaku.[/QUOTE] Being FP's biggest racist I can 100% confirm this as factual that asshole stole my lawnmower take that you baby-sausage dick

[QUOTE=Tudd;51966955]So just because were 35 pages in and I wanted to post this finally. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/[/url] Here is that study Jontron was referring to that everyone thinks he pulled out of his ass.[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is that you, and he, only read the title and didn't bother looking at the article or the study, then? Here's something that should absolutely blow your mind. Courts in the USA are more likely to imprison blacks than whites, regardless of their wealth.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51967933] Courts in the USA are more likely to imprison blacks than whites, regardless of their wealth.[/QUOTE] I don't want to be a stick in the mud, especially cause most of the shit jontron said was retarded, but just from a purely abstract point of view, isn't there a problem in being able to account for evidence to the contrary by means of arguing that the evidence itself is proof of the conspiracy of racism? Like, how do you verify that the stats, at any given point, are not the result of some overarching bias against people? Idk, that's just me nitpicking. I would need more data like arrest rates and stuff like that in order to be more of a devils advocate, but even then if the arrests rates were higher across the board then that could be pinned on racist cops. It's an epistemic extra-legal nightmare. What would affirmative action to stop this look like?

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;51968007]I don't want to be a stick in the mud, especially cause most of the shit jontron said was retarded, but just from a purely abstract point of view, isn't there a problem in being able to account for evidence to the contrary by means of arguing that the evidence itself is proof of the conspiracy of racism? Like, how do you verify that the stats, at any given point, are not the result of some overarching bias against people? Idk, that's just me nitpicking. I would need more data like arrest rates and stuff like that in order to be more of a devils advocate, but even then if the arrests rates were higher across the board then that could be pinned on racist cops. It's an epistemic extra-legal nightmare. What would affirmative action to stop this look like?[/QUOTE] Right, but this 'evidence' cited by Tudd and supposedly JonTron was evidence that went against the point he was trying to make in the first place. Nobody's pointing at the study and saying "This study is made-up because it doesn't fit my narrative!". No, Jafari looked at the study and decided to misrepresent the stats, which showed that richer blacks were incarcerated more often than poor whites, and claim instead that richer blacks [I]committed more crime[/I] than poor whites. In other words, he took a study meant to demonstrate a systemic bias in the justice system and instead decided that it meant that black people were inherently more criminal than whites. The study never came close to making such a claim. Tudd, under the impression that those who don't share his political views and don't support Trump would have a hard time disagreeing with anything printed in the Washington Post, as the Post always criticizes Trump, figured that he'd scored a point in posting a study with a title that seemed to confirm Jafari's bias. Unfortunately, much like Jafari, he didn't bother reading the article itself. As for affirmative action, I see it as a sledgehammer where a scalpel is needed instead. Nothing but strong public education that teaches people to deal with diversity can solve this problem in the long run. It won't show immediate results, but over generations, it will. Social engineering is key, not quotas.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51968071]Right, but this 'evidence' cited by Tudd and supposedly JonTron was evidence that went against the point he was trying to make in the first place. Nobody's pointing at the study and saying "This study is made-up because it doesn't fit my narrative!". No, Jafari looked at the study and decided to misrepresent the stats, which showed that richer blacks were incarcerated more often than poor whites, and claim instead that richer blacks [I]committed more crime[/I] than poor whites. In other words, he took a study meant to demonstrate a systemic bias in the justice system and instead decided that it meant that black people were inherently more criminal than whites. The study never came close to making such a claim. As for affirmative action, I see it as a sledgehammer where a scalpel is needed instead. Nothing but strong public education that teaches people to deal with diversity can solve this problem in the long run. It won't show immediate results, but over generations, it will. Social engineering is key, not quotas.[/QUOTE] Do we have stats on crime rates? How would we judge that? Arrests? Conviction rates? It evidently can't be incarcerations. Strong public education to deal with diversity perhaps won't address the issue if there is actually a crime issue on the part of some group, be it the poor or whatever. Either way this whole conversation is dumb cause it would lead to something like 'black people are bad' when that in itself would have to be unpacked as a generality and from nature-vs-nurture. Even, then, having that, there is nothing you can do that is in keeping with the notion of basic equality save concentrating on sheer cultural issues. Anyways, Jontron is pretty dumb though for doing that, he clearly didn't think it through.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;51968085]Do we have stats on crime rates? How would we judge that? Arrests? It evidently can't be convictions. Strong public education to deal with diversity perhaps won't address the issue if there is actually a crime issue on the part of some group, be it the poor or whatever. Either way this whole conversation is dumb cause it would lead to something like 'black people are bad' when that in itself would have to be unpacked as a generality and from nature-vs-nurture. Even, then, having that, there is nothing you can do that is in keeping with the notion of basic equality save concentrating on sheer cultural issues. Anyways, Jontron is pretty dumb though for doing that, he clearly didn't think it through.[/QUOTE] Let's be clear here: Statistics show that blacks, especially in the USA, do commit somewhat more crime than whites do. How many of these convictions are legitimate and impartial, and how many are due to bias in the justice system is extremely hard to determine. However, the Human Genome Project has already established, with evidence, that no phenotype has a markedly different genetic makeup to any other, which is why you hear all the time that the scientific consensus is that race doesn't exist except as a social construct. In other words, the idea of blacks being inherently more violent than whites, as Jontron and other White Nationalists/Supremacists seem to believe, has absolutely no basis in science. Sociologists, however, believe that in countries where a certain identifiable population has been systemically fucked over and over by the government and by their fellow countrymen for generations, they trend towards more social and familial conflicts, more crime, and more poverty. This damage lasts for generations. It works exactly the same way that, in studies of domestic abuse, those who have grown up in abusive families are more at risk to become abusive themselves. See: Blacks in the USA, Native Americans in Canada. The stats in the Washington Post studies, by the way, were taken from court cases in 1985. Thirty-two years ago, just 22 years after Martin Luther King Jr. gave his "I have a dream" speech in Washington DC. Just 21 years after blacks and people of color in the United States had their civil rights recognized. Just 21 years after this was outlawed: [t]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d9/a6/3d/d9a63d75980cf46ab2a5e4b0f0a2614c.jpg[/t] Let's not even bring up slavery. There are many, many Americans alive today, baby boomers and the generation before them, that remember the America before the civil rights movement finally met with success. There are those among them who still consider blacks inferior and sub-human, and teach their kids the same. The many black families that existed then in abject poverty didn't get magically get rich in just 53 years. Their kids, and their kids' kids, are still poor. They still grow up with the belief that society will shit on them, because even though overt systematic racism was outlawed in 1964, it's still alive and well in American society, just under the veneer of legitimacy. To such people, who grow up poor, don't have access to a decent education, and who come from families with a long history of suffering oppression, their only recourse is often gangs or crime - they gotta look out for themselves somehow, in a world that seems out to get them (and very often is). There are many states in the USA that have no right to determine their own voting laws because every single time they've been allowed to, they've tried to take the vote away from blacks. The sins of our fathers are visited upon their sons. How many generations do you think it'll take before those systemic inequalities are rectified? Before those old wounds heal? Before blacks and whites truly have the same economic and social opportunities? Before police stop targeting blacks disproportionately? Before courts stop disproportionately convicting and incarcerating them? Because if race, as we now know, has no scientific basis and so does not exist except in the minds of people, the only other explanation is the one above. America has made [I]some[/I] progress since the pre civil rights era - just not nearly enough. The resurgence of white nationalism in the dogwhistling of the new US administration and the rise of the so-called Alt-Right is threatening to undo what little progress has been made.

[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;51967687]can we talk about the fact that you literally [i]just[/i] got unbanned and you're on holidays overseas and you're already shitposting in topics posting irrelevant shit [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] the study isn't even relevant to what jontron said in the first place ffs[/QUOTE] Hey defending racist ideology is a full time job for him

If you haven't figured out yet that Tudd is posting solely to bait Judas and others like him into getting incredibly mad/banned at his intentionally fallacious or flawed racist arguments, check his ban history. It's best to ignore him and talk about the topic on hand, you're not going to actually convince him of anything. He doesn't actually believe his own arguments, he just pretends to. Ceaselessly. That's the whole ethos of the frog meme thing in his avatar, you post deliberately controversial and counter-popular opinions in an effort to irritate the shit out of people and make them flip out.

[QUOTE=Sonador;51968837]If you haven't figured out yet that Tudd is posting solely to bait Judas and others like him into getting incredibly mad/banned at his intentionally fallacious or flawed racist arguments, check his ban history. It's best to ignore him and talk about the topic on hand, you're not going to actually convince him of anything. He doesn't actually believe his own arguments. That's the whole ethos of the frog meme thing in his avatar, you post deliberately controversial and counter-popular opinions in an effort to irritate the shit out of people and make them flip out.[/QUOTE] Actually I do believe what I say. Though I was going to post in reply to the study about incarceration that there are studies that do find that blacks disproportionately commit more crimes despite their population being very low. Reasons for this are already posted by other users, but to say that the study Jontron referenced has no link is probably disingenuous when these two things are probably linked. [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51967737]It doesn't fucking matter why the data in the study exists. "Young black people below the top income percentile are incarcerated at a higher rate than young white people of the same income bracket" has NOTHING TO DO with the claim "WEALTHY BLACKS COMMIT MORE CRIME THAN POOR WHITES"[/quote] Actually if you look at the chart/data, it is for all the wealthier deciles except for the highest one. The Study doesn't contradict itself, it is just that at the highest possible the pattern stops. Which is actually pretty interesting. [quote] in fact, the study [I]directly contradicts that statement[/I], in that it explicitly states that young black people in households that make more than 69k annually aren't any more likely to be incarcerated than their white counterparts.[/QUOTE] [quote]About 10 percent of affluent black youths in 1985 would eventually go to prison. Only the very wealthiest black youth — those whose household wealth in 1985 exceeded $69,000 in 2012 dollars — had a better chance of avoiding prison than the poorest white youth. Among black young people in this group, 2.4 percent were incarcerated.[/quote] You are not wrong, but there is still the rest of the percentiles to look at. Though personally, I don't consider $69,000 annual salary to be affluent. [t]https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/03/max_revised.png&w=1484[/t]

[QUOTE=Tudd;51968871]Actually I do believe what I say. Though I was going to post in reply to the study about incarceration that there are studies that do find that blacks disproportionately commit more crimes despite their population being very low. Reasons for this are already posted by other users, but to say that the study Jontron referenced has no link is probably disingenuous when these two things are probably linked. [editline]16th March 2017[/editline] Actually if you look at the chart/data, it is for all the wealthier deciles except for the highest one. The Study doesn't contradict itself, it is just that at the highest possible the pattern stops. Which is actually pretty interesting. You are not wrong, but there is still the rest of the percentiles to look at. Though personally, I don't consider $69,000 annual salary to be affluent. [t]https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/03/max_revised.png&w=1484[/t][/QUOTE] You're still ignoring the point. Higher rates of incarceration =/= committing more crime. No, the study doesn't contradict itself. Because the study doesn't ever make the claim that wealthy blacks commit more crime than poor whites. Only that they're incarcerated more. The only people making that particular claim are you and Jon Jafari. Hell, given how racist and backwards the United States as a country is towards blacks compared to Canada, one can't even really trust that criminal convictions are 100% legitimate. Many of those will be just as motivated by racial bias as the incarceration rate. If you want a parallel example, examine Canada's demographics and crime rate. You'll find that in Canada, the Native American population, particularly the Metis, represent a whole 18% of the prison population despite the fact they make up only 3.8 of the country's population. This is a result of the fact that Native Americans in Canada have been screwed by recent administrations and historically almost as much as Blacks have been and continue to be in America. On the whole, the huge racial divides, prevalence of degeneracy like the alt-right and the openly racist GOP, and the widespread islamophobia are completely insignificant in Canada compared to the United States, despite the fact that our immigration system is points-based and not arbitrary.

So great to see the local shitposter is back outta ban jail to spread his wisdom once again.

[QUOTE=Hogie bear;51969002]So great to see the local shitposter is back outta ban jail to spread his wisdom once again.[/QUOTE] it was a good week but someone's gotta stink the place up i mean we could be reasonable and assume that not all incarcerations mean a voluntary criminal act, but wheres the fun in being reasonable when we can just make our own reality up

[QUOTE=mchapra;51969008]it was a good week but someone's gotta stink the place up[/QUOTE] I like having Tudd around. Keeps this place from getting too echo-chambery. Besides which, at the times like this one, where he's not presenting a good argument, cutting him down to size is cathartic. What I completely fail to understand is *why* he sticks around on a forum that is so often so hostile towards him.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51968896]You're still ignoring the point. Higher rates of incarceration =/= committing more crime.[/QUOTE] Can someone explain this to me? Why higher incarceration rates have nothing to do with committing more crime? I'm missing something here. I don't know if I'm not understanding something due to language or what. I mean if say Polish immigrants to the US would have much higher incarceration rate than other immigrants, wouldn't that mean that Polish immigrants commit more crime compared to other immigrants? Like... how do you "measure" which one of 2 groups of people commit more crime? Someone already asked this question. I thought incarceration rate would be a good way to get a rough idea about it, no? Or is it that you are saying that we can't trust these numbers in the slightest because of the prejudice of the justice system in the US? And just a disclaimer, I'm not making any arguments here or agreeing/disagreeing with anyone. I just want to understand something that I'm not getting while it's seems obvious to almost everyone else.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51969182]Can someone explain this to me? Why higher incarceration rates have nothing to do with committing more crime? I'm missing something here. I don't know if I'm not understanding something due to language or what. I mean if say Polish immigrants to the US would have much higher incarceration rate than other immigrants, wouldn't that mean that Polish immigrants commit more crime compared to other immigrants? Like... how do you "measure" which one of 2 groups of people commit more crime? Someone already asked this question. I thought incarceration rate would be a good way to get a rough idea about it, no? Or is it that you are saying that we can't trust these numbers in the slightest because of the prejudice of the justice system in the US? And just a disclaimer, I'm not making any arguments here or agreeing/disagreeing with anyone. I just want to understand something that I'm not getting while it's seems obvious to almost everyone else.[/QUOTE] The United States has standing issues with their criminal court and incarceration systems, ranging from incompetence, corruption, to good old fashioned racism. A conviction may generally mean assurance of guilt, but it is not necessarily so. Archangel also is correct below in the sentencing disparity. In some areas, the police departments also have similar issues, although not on such a widespread scale.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51969182]Can someone explain this to me? Why higher incarceration rates have nothing to do with committing more crime? I'm missing something here. I don't know if I'm not understanding something due to language or what. I mean if say Polish immigrants to the US would have much higher incarceration rate than other immigrants, wouldn't that mean that Polish immigrants commit more crime compared to other immigrants? Like... how do you "measure" which one of 2 groups of people commit more crime? Someone already asked this question. I thought incarceration rate would be a good way to get a rough idea about it, no? Or is it that you are saying that we can't trust these numbers in the slightest because of the prejudice of the justice system in the US? And just a disclaimer, I'm not making any arguments here or agreeing/disagreeing with anyone. I just want to understand something that I'm not getting while it's seems obvious to almost everyone else.[/QUOTE] Well, what I'm getting at is that even when an individual is found guilty of certain less serious crimes, and even assuming that the conviction was 100% legit (Which it often is not in the more... biased parts of America) courts have a lot of wiggle room in terms of how to sentence the offender. In crimes that could have fines or community service as a sentence, but also could result in imprisonment, blacks in the USA often get thrown in jail.

[QUOTE=Sonador;51969191]The United States has standing issues with their criminal court and incarceration systems, ranging from incompetence, corruption, to good old fashioned racism. A conviction may generally mean assurance of guilt, but it is not necessarily so. Archangel also is correct below in the sentencing disparity. In some areas, the police departments also have similar issues, although not on such a widespread scale.[/QUOTE] Yeah I figured bias might be one of the reasons. [QUOTE=archangel125;51969193]Well, what I'm getting at is that even when an individual is found guilty of a certain crime, and even assuming that the conviction was 100% legit (Which it often is not in the more... biased parts of America) courts have a lot of wiggle room in terms of how to sentence the offender. In crimes that could have fines or community service as a sentence, but also could result in imprisonment, blacks in the USA often get thrown in jail.[/QUOTE] Oh I get it. So a conviction rate would give you a better idea than incarceration rate then (you'd still have to account for the bias that we mentioned)? Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Was browsing r/all when suddenly [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5zprqq/the_cuckaroos_over_at_rjontron_think_jon_commited/[/url] Now he's done for

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51969182]Can someone explain this to me? Why higher incarceration rates have nothing to do with committing more crime? I'm missing something here. I don't know if I'm not understanding something due to language or what. I mean if say Polish immigrants to the US would have much higher incarceration rate than other immigrants, wouldn't that mean that Polish immigrants commit more crime compared to other immigrants? Like... how do you "measure" which one of 2 groups of people commit more crime? Someone already asked this question. I thought incarceration rate would be a good way to get a rough idea about it, no? Or is it that you are saying that we can't trust these numbers in the slightest because of the prejudice of the justice system in the US? And just a disclaimer, I'm not making any arguments here or agreeing/disagreeing with anyone. I just want to understand something that I'm not getting while it's seems obvious to almost everyone else.[/QUOTE] Correlation vs Causation thing. Doing a crime doesn't necessarily imply you are arrested or charged. Being arrested and charged for a crime doesn't necessarily imply you did the crime. Not being arrested and charged for a crime doesn't mean it didn't happen. Black people [URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/black-people-stop-and-search-six-times-police-racist-a7383591.html"] are more likely to be stop searched[/URL] (this is UK stat, US has it worse you can google this. also US stat coming up) (fun fact:[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/27/police-are-searching-black-drivers-more-often-but-finding-more-illegal-stuff-with-white-drivers-2/?utm_term=.75f1cf621e1e"] ironically[/URL] the disproportionate and uneccisary/unfounded targeting of black people leads to more false positives, which actually means whites have a higher rate of being found with illegal stuff - because when they are stopped it's got better founded suspicion) (black people 3 times more likely to be stop searched from that study, diff years, diff areas, diff studies show the same trend but diff rates.) Black people are also more likely to be [URL="http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/07/politics/blacks-wrongful-convictions-study/"]wrongfully convicted[/URL] [quote]According to the researchers, [b]innocent blacks are seven times more likely to be convicted of murder than innocent white people.[/b] Gross said this was partly because homicide rates among black people are higher than among white people, and innocent black people are therefore more likely to get suspected and convicted of murder. [/quote] Black people are also more likely to be found guilty (nuanced from the above since above was confirmed innocent, this is a more general trend ie implication is a black guy might be found guilty where a white guy might not) and are more likely to be given longer sentences for the same crime than white people. This data suggested (to me at least) that the police and the justice department disproportionate target black people for investigations and when a black person is taken to court the jury is more likely to find them guilty. The implication here is the white crime to white conviction ratio is lower than the black crime to black conviction ratio. ie conviction and incarceration rates are not reliable indicators for crime stats. It's not a solid counter but its a better, more grounded in reality argument than the thing jontron and tudd believe. All this said I do think that perhaps on average black people in the US have a higher crime rate than white people in the US. I believe this is because black people are more likely than white people to live in poverty and that people in poverty tend to have higher crime rates. The more reliable indicator for crime rate is poverty imo. Also black people (on average, because of poverty) having a higher crime rate is not a valid reason to profile black people or discriminate against them - indeed the ineffectiveness and high false positive occurrence for stop and search shows that racial profiling is bad use of police time/resources. Not saying you were suggesting this btw, you're super reasonable, but others (a friend of mine irl) have said this to me in the past. IMO this is also an argument for investment in poorer communities. We've noticed a problem - crime strongly correlating with poverty - we might be able to apply a fix, even if it didn't work because of some other factor we would be improving peoples quality of life and expanding domestic markets (middle class tend to have more disposable income to help stimulate the economy)

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51969318]Was browsing r/all when suddenly [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/5zprqq/the_cuckaroos_over_at_rjontron_think_jon_commited/[/url] Now he's done for[/QUOTE] geez, poor guy, even if he has some extreme views, nobody wants to be praised by those people.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51969323]Correlation vs Causation thing. Doing a crime doesn't necessarily imply you are arrested or charged. Being arrested and charged for a crime doesn't necessarily imply you did the crime. Not being arrested and charged for a crime doesn't mean it didn't happen.[/QUOTE] Yeah I understand these are not 100% proportionate, but arrests, charges and convictions are pretty much everything from which we can extrapolate how many crimes groups of people commit, aren't they? Of course you need to take into account all the biases that you and others have mentioned here. You can't simplify it like Jon did. I mean, it could mean what Jon wants it to mean but only in a world with no racial biases in the justice system whatsoever. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51969323]Black people [URL="http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/black-people-stop-and-search-six-times-police-racist-a7383591.html"] are more likely to be stop searched[/URL] (this is UK stat, US has it worse you can google this. also US stat coming up) (fun fact:[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/27/police-are-searching-black-drivers-more-often-but-finding-more-illegal-stuff-with-white-drivers-2/?utm_term=.75f1cf621e1e"] ironically[/URL] the disproportionate and uneccisary/unfounded targeting of black people leads to more false positives, which actually means whites have a higher rate of being found with illegal stuff - because when they are stopped it's got better founded suspicion) (black people 3 times more likely to be stop searched from that study, diff years, diff areas, diff studies show the same trend but diff rates.) Black people are also more likely to be [URL="http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/07/politics/blacks-wrongful-convictions-study/"]wrongfully convicted[/URL] Black people are also more likely to be found guilty (nuanced from the above since above was confirmed innocent, this is a more general trend ie implication is a black guy might be found guilty where a white guy might not) and are more likely to be given longer sentences for the same crime than white people. This data suggested (to me at least) that the police and the justice department disproportionate target black people for investigations and when a black person is taken to court the jury is more likely to find them guilty. The implication here is the white crime to white conviction ratio is lower than the black crime to black conviction ratio. ie conviction and incarceration rates are not reliable indicators for crime stats. It's not a solid counter but its a better, more grounded in reality argument than the thing jontron and tudd believe. All this said I do think that perhaps on average black people in the US have a higher crime rate than white people in the US. I believe this is because black people are more likely than white people to live in poverty and that people in poverty tend to have higher crime rates. The more reliable indicator for crime rate is poverty imo. Also black people (on average, because of poverty) having a higher crime rate is not a valid reason to profile black people or discriminate against them - indeed the ineffectiveness and high false positive occurrence for stop and search shows that racial profiling is bad use of police time/resources. Not saying you were suggesting this btw, you're super reasonable, but others (a friend of mine irl) have said this to me in the past. IMO this is also an argument for investment in poorer communities. We've noticed a problem - crime strongly correlating with poverty - we might be able to apply a fix, even if it didn't work because of some other factor we would be improving peoples quality of life and expanding domestic markets (middle class tend to have more disposable income to help stimulate the economy)[/QUOTE] Yeah I'm aware/agree with everything you said here.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51969013]What I completely fail to understand is *why* he sticks around on a forum that is so often so hostile towards him.[/QUOTE] Glutton for punishment? [sp]or perhaps the propaganda ministry pays really well[/sp]