Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51974218]Ive been enjoying Destiny and all but he's being a total fucking prick to Psychicpebbles, jesus christ.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://youtu.be/ebEqKC_Nw_I?t=2m55s"]he gets that way[/URL], this is him berating one of his viewers who is 16 years old like a manchild

[QUOTE=Tudd;51974303]Fair point. Just wish Destiny was consistent and more comprehensive with his statements. Going from "Nobody wants to be a construction worker!!" to sweatshops being a positive thing in 3rd world countries. Sargon has really taken him through the ringer.[/QUOTE] How is that not consistent. Nobody wants to work in a sweatshop (except Intoxicated Spy's grandpa and dad) but it is still an upgrade from what many countries had before that.

[QUOTE=Skanic;51973923]Sargon and Destiny debate [video]https://youtu.be/j_y7ZZmYVPA[/video][/QUOTE] I haven't heard the whole debate yet, but as of about half way through I'm of the opinion that Sargon won this one. Great debate all around.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974316]I haven't heard the whole debate yet, but as of about half way through I'm of the opinion that Sargon won this one. Great debate all around.[/QUOTE] At the start it's amazing how to so many arguments all destiny says is "I don't know". A majority group would not willingly want to become a minority? What's not to know there. Destiny's hearsay about slavs, oh god that's embarrassing.

What did he say about Slavs? I just left a wifi area and got shitty internet again.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51974398]What did he say about Slavs? I just left a wifi area and got shitty internet again.[/QUOTE] He said that in Europe slavs are discriminated similar to how minorities are in US. Then when Sargon corrected him Destiny said something along the lines of that being the opposite of what he hears everywhere. It's funny because he based his view on slav discrimination from some place where he heard that.

[QUOTE=tehMuffinMan;51974307][URL="https://youtu.be/ebEqKC_Nw_I?t=2m55s"]he gets that way[/URL], this is him berating one of his viewers who is 16 years old like a manchild[/QUOTE] Holy shit. That's just embarrassing.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51974424]He said that in Europe slavs are discriminated similar to how minorities are in US. Then when Sargon corrected him Destiny said something along the lines of that being the opposite of what he hears everywhere. It's funny because he based his view on slav discrimination from some place where he heard that.[/QUOTE] his point wasn't that slavs are the blacks of europe, his point is that every person with white skin in europe isn't seen as part of a single group of "the whites" the way it is in the US, and that even in the US every ethnic group with white skin wasn't always seen as "white" his point is that people don't just care for other people of their skin color by default, what is seen as "the in group" has changed massively over time and varies massively by location

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974452]his point wasn't that slavs are the blacks of europe, his point is that every person with white skin in europe isn't seen as part of a single group of "the whites" the way it is in the US, and that even in the US people with white skin weren't seen as "white" his point is that people don't just care for other people of their skin color by default, what is seen as "the in group" has changed massively over time and varies massively by location[/QUOTE] Not at the part I was talking about. He explicitly mentions slavs being discriminated and then Sargon corrects him. What you're talking about happens later. He also clearly mentions basing that view on stuff he heard somewhere.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51974461]Not at the part I was talking about. He explicitly mentions slavs being discriminated and then Sargon corrects him. What you're talking about happens later.[/QUOTE] isn't there a lot of negative sentiment towards polish people in the UK? is that not a thing? because even in my limited experience I've heard a lot of uncharitable views about polish immigrants and polish people

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51973904]Sargon is an idiot. Nobody wants to be a fucking construction worker.[/QUOTE] My father passed the state bar then decided to become a house painter. Said it was the best move of his life. Stop being stupid.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51974279]I'm not watching the debate or whatever it is but often times sweatshops are an upgrade from the barely subsistence levels of farming that people in third world countries partake in.[/QUOTE] It was in the context of American companies having bought land around the company plantations in South America, basically forcing poor people to work there or starve. And suicide nets being set up outside factories in China. In that context, he said that it was an improvement. At the very least that's emotionally cold.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974476]isn't there a lot of negative sentiment towards polish people in the UK? is that not a thing? because even in my limited experience I've heard a lot of uncharitable views about polish immigrants and polish people[/QUOTE] That's true but UK is a huge exception. They're unlike any other European country. Not to mention they dislike Poles, not slavs in general. Also different. If Destiny said that UK discriminates against white Poles, fair game. But he talks about slav discrimination in Europe which is very different topic. Sargon might be a shitty person, but he is miles above Destiny in debating, it is quite evident during the debate. Destiny is awfully defensive in this one.

[QUOTE=DuCT;51974484]My father passes the state bar then decided to become a house painter. Said it was the best move of his life. Stop being stupid.[/QUOTE] Destiny just elaborated on stream that he means low skill labor, not something that you need to study and train and go to school for.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51974489]That's true but UK is a huge exception. They're unlike any other European country. Not to mention they dislike Poles, not slavs in general. Also different. If Destiny said that UK discriminates against white Poles, fair game. But he talks about slav discrimination in Europe which is very different topic.[/QUOTE] when his whole point is that europe isn't one big homogenous group of people that views themselves as "europeans", I doubt he's trying to say that everyone in europe doesn't like slavs

[QUOTE=patq911;51974494]Destiny just elaborated on stream that he means low skill labor, not something that you need to study and train and go to school for.[/QUOTE] Depends on what sort of house painter. Without more info we can't say what skill level labor his dad was doing. [editline]17th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974500]when his whole point is that europe isn't one big homogenous group of people that views themselves as "europeans", I doubt he's trying to say that everyone in europe doesn't like slavs[/QUOTE]If that was what he was saying there, he used totally wrong words and I have no idea how it could be interpreted that way at all.

Destiny continues being a cunt against Psychic Pebbles because ???

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51974511]Destiny continues being a cunt against Psychic Pebbles because ???[/QUOTE] Destiny is a manchild. [QUOTE=tehMuffinMan;51974307][URL="https://youtu.be/ebEqKC_Nw_I?t=2m55s"]he gets that way[/URL], this is him berating one of his viewers who is 16 years old like a manchild[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974316]I haven't heard the whole debate yet, but as of about half way through I'm of the opinion that Sargon won this one. Great debate all around.[/QUOTE] We should really stop treating these "debates" as win-lose bouts. It pits the two sides against each other and puts the focus more on defeating your opponent than on having a productive conversation. Even Destiny said he wants these to be discussions, not debates.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51974489]That's true but UK is a huge exception. They're unlike any other European country. [B]Not to mention they dislike Poles, not slavs in general.[/B] Also different. If Destiny said that UK discriminates against white Poles, fair game. But he talks about slav discrimination in Europe which is very different topic. Sargon might be a shitty person, but he is miles above Destiny in debating, it is quite evident during the debate. Destiny is awfully defensive in this one.[/QUOTE] I hear nothing but disdain for eastern europeans equal to disdain for those from the middle east on a daily basis. You can argue it depends on which part of the UK you're in but that irrational hatred is alive and kicking in plenty of places here.

[QUOTE=patq911;51974494]Destiny just elaborated on stream that he means low skill labor, not something that you need to study and train and go to school for.[/QUOTE] You don't go to school to be a house painter. There isn't really traditional training. My dad started it as a summer job in high school, then just got better as time went on. Their are unions, but my father has stayed out of that.

so: 1. destiny is a manchild 2. naked ape is human garbage 3. sargon is also a manchild but to what degree depends on your political stance 4. we must mourn for jon's career, unless he performs the proper steps to atone for himself and resurrect it from the grave boy, that's so swell! -- pere ubu, 1978, "Navvy"

the problem here is people are saying because some people want to work these low skill hard labor jobs, we should artifically limit the supply of labor to raise the wages for these jobs meaning people who [I]don't[/I] want to work these jobs aren't able to move into better paying higher skill complementary positions that never end up being made. You're selling out the people who want to actually bring themselves up for the sake of people who are happy where they are.

As for a winner of the debate, I would say no one won. If we talk pure economics, they are talking about different priorities and different ways of improving things, both which could work. Sargon's viewpoint was more stubborn and less effective but not completely worthless. Destiny had me with his arguing, then he decided to defend third world working conditions, he lost me there. That's just improving the US and letting the third world pay for the costs. Which is just awful. Sargon was arguing in bad faith during the "neo-liberal" arguments. Destiny knew his policies weren't perfect and wanted to address that with wealth distribution. Sargon never accepted that it was different from the status quo.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51974501]Depends on what sort of house painter. Without more info we can't say what skill level labor his dad was doing. [/QUOTE] Started small. Does interior and exterior. Doesn't charge you out the ass but does amazing work (clients words). Has built an incredible client base because of his work, and has worked for some pretty goddamn rich people. Even met Yo-Yo Ma on the job, got to listen to him and a violist practice for a couple hours. It takes skill to work at his level with the amount of speed he has. Low skill at entry, but there is a very high ceiling to aim for.

[QUOTE=DuCT;51974564]Started small. Does interior and exterior. Doesn't charge you out the ass but does amazing work (clients words). Has built an incredible client base because of his work, and has worked for some pretty goddamn rich people. Even met Yo-Yo Ma on the job, got to listen to him and a violist practice for a couple hours. It takes skill to work at his level with the amount of speed he has. Low skill at entry, but there is a very high ceiling to aim for.[/QUOTE] if your dad is good enough at house painting that he's being specifically hired by rich clients, then he isn't in the group of people we're talking about who are competing with immigrants for jobs

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51974532]We should really stop treating these "debates" as win-lose bouts. It pits the two sides against each other and puts the focus more on defeating your opponent than on having a productive conversation. Even Destiny said he wants these to be discussions, not debates.[/QUOTE] Okay, Sargon had the most convincing argument in this discussion.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974590]Okay, Sargon had the most convincing argument in this discussion.[/QUOTE] his opening point was that when Jon was talking about nonwhites outbreeding whites and foreigners entering the gene pool he wasn't talking about race I really don't understand how anyone could see him as the more logical person in this discussion

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974596]his opening point was that when Jon was talking about nonwhites outbreeding whites and foreigners entering the gene pool he wasn't talking about race I really don't understand how anyone could see him as the more logical person in this discussion[/QUOTE] One bad point doesn't invalidate a 2 hour discussion. Clearly Jon's opinions are indefensible, but if Sargon has a way to use it to talk about his own opinions then I'll allow it.

To sum up their economic arguments, as I see it: Destiny: We should take immigrants to expand our economy and labor base. Which will create new jobs to meet the demand of the new people coming. Those losing out on jobs because of immigration will be retrained for other jobs. Sargon: Instead of having to retrain, keep immigrants out and that results in people keeping already existing jobs and makes their wages rise due to lack of competition from immigrants.