Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974582]if your dad is good enough at house painting that he's being specifically hired by rich clients, then he isn't in the group of people we're talking about who are competing with immigrants for jobs[/QUOTE] No. I'm saying that he started off at the same place as everyone else, in the group of people competing with immigrants (although it was the 70's, so less immigrants). And that through his hard work he has been able to start is own business and do very well.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974600]One bad point doesn't invalidate a 2 hour discussion. Clearly Jon's opinions are indefensible, but if Sargon has a way to use it to talk about his own opinions then I'll allow it.[/QUOTE] in one breath sargon says that you can't say that gentrification or the drug war breaking up black communities can be seen as a cause for the disintegration of black families because you can't draw a causal link, and in the next says if you get married it will make you rich because married people are more likely to be rich like are these blatant contradictions not blindingly obvious? [editline]17th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=DuCT;51974619]No. I'm saying that he started off at the same place as everyone else, in the group of people competing with immigrants (although it was the 70's, so less immigrants). And that through his hard work he has been able to start is own business and do very well.[/QUOTE] do you think it's fair to say that the economic growth and lowered price of goods due in part to immigration might benefit his clients, and by extension his business?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974622]in one breath sargon says that you can't say that gentrification or the drug war breaking up black communities can be seen as a cause for the disintegration of black families because you can't draw a causal link, and in the next says if you get married it will make you rich because married people are more likely to be rich like are these blatant contradictions not blindingly obvious?[/QUOTE] The former is an opinion regarding the data he's seen and the latter is a true statement based on statistics? How can you compare these two statements?

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974632]The former is an opinion based on the data he's seen and the latter is a true statement based on statistics?[/QUOTE] did you know that school children who sleep more are more likely to get better grades in school do you think it would be fair to say that the more a child sleeps the better their grades will be?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974643]did you know that school children who sleep more are more likely to get better grades in school do you think it would be fair to say that the more a child sleeps the better their grades will be?[/QUOTE] Yes and yes, with one exception. I will say your second point is wrong unless it's "do you think it would be fair to say that if more children get a full night's sleep their average grades will improve".

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974643]did you know that school children who sleep more are more likely to get better grades in school do you think it would be fair to say that the more a child sleeps the better their grades will be?[/QUOTE] No because that a correlative link not a causal link.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974646]Yes and yes.[/QUOTE] did you know that when you further break that data up by class, the correlation is dramatically diminished? Turns out, wealthier kids are more likely to sleep longer. And wealthier kids also happen to get better grades. This is a famous example of why a statement like "married people are richer, therefor if you marry you will be richer" is wrong. [I]Rich people[/I] are more likely to marry, that doesn't mean getting married will raise you out of poverty.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974657] This is a famous example of why a statement like "married people are richer, therefor if you marry you will be richer" is wrong. [I]Rich people[/I] are more likely to marry, that doesn't mean getting married will raise you out of poverty.[/QUOTE] Does combining the income of two people not give a household more wealth with which they can invest into better living conditions? Serious question.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974622] do you think it's fair to say that the economic growth and lowered price of goods due in part to immigration might benefit his clients, and by extension his business?[/QUOTE] Paint costs won't come down due to economic growth, especially the decent paints. Paint has gotten shittier and shittier for a long time because of regulations and the like, so anything but top tier paint is trash and avoided. And the largest chunk of the bill is from labor costs, which my dad already keeps low.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974657]did you know that when you further break that data up by class, the correlation is dramatically diminished? Turns out, wealthier kids are more likely to sleep longer. And wealthier kids also happen to get better grades. This is a famous example of why a statement like "married people are richer, therefor if you marry you will be richer" is wrong. [I]Rich people[/I] are more likely to marry, that doesn't mean getting married will raise you out of poverty.[/QUOTE] I don't know about the latter suggestion that "poor people are less likely to marry than rich people". But you probably could argue from a residence standpoint that marriage means combining the wealth of two people.

I think we're getting a little off on a tangent here, aren't we?

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974669]Does combining the income of two people not give a household more wealth with which they can invest into better living conditions? Serious question.[/QUOTE] So does getting a room mate. Getting a room mate still isn't going to get you out of a ghetto, or give you a decent education. It doesn't actually in and of itself help to raise you out of your current position.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974683]So does getting a room mate.[/QUOTE] You've jumped the shark mate. Roommates only reduce your personal costs for your living area. They do not increase the wealth of the household as a whole as their concerns are themselves and their room. You're not going to borrow 10K from a roommate so you can purchase a car to share, or invest their money into your education so you can get a better job to move the two of you into a nicer house. A roommate also doesn't improve your tax situation or credit opportunities.

[QUOTE=DuCT;51974672]Paint costs won't come down due to economic growth, especially the decent paints. Paint has gotten shittier and shittier for a long time because of regulations and the like, so anything but top tier paint is trash and avoided. And the largest chunk of the bill is from labor costs, which my dad already keeps low.[/QUOTE] don't you think it can be reasonably argued if the cost of goods for the average person goes down and more high paying jobs open up there will be more customers with more disposable income to pay your dad for his services?

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974669]Does combining the income of two people not give a household more wealth with which they can invest into better living conditions? Serious question.[/QUOTE] Being married impacts your tax rate and can make you eligible for additional tax benefits at least in Canada

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974693]You've jumped the shark mate. Room mates only reduce your personal residence cost. They do not increase the wealth of the house hold as a whole.[/QUOTE] marriage doesn't increase wealth either, the only thing you could argue that it does is reduce the overall financial burden for the people married, assuming they don't have kids. By the logic, we should legalize polygamy, since the more incomes you have combined the less poor people are. It just doesn't work that way. [editline]17th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Sonador;51974682]I think we're getting a little off on a tangent here, aren't we?[/QUOTE] We really aren't though. These are fundamental mistakes with Sargon's logic. The reason we have to go on tangents is because I have to explain why these arguments are flawed, because apparently a lot of people don't understand.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974708]marriage doesn't increase wealth either, the only thing you could argue that it does is reduce the overall financial burden for the people married, assuming they don't have kids.[/QUOTE] If two people work the same job at the same rate, and they get married, they've effectively doubled the wealth of the household. That's without counting the tax benefits and credit benefits that would increase their wealth further. [editline]wat[/editline] And now you've jumped the shark again with that polygamy bit. What are you even doing in this thread? It's not debating whatever it is.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51973904]Sargon is an idiot. Nobody wants to be a fucking construction worker.[/QUOTE] Speak for yourself.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974694]don't you think it can be reasonably argued if the cost of goods for the average person goes down and more high paying jobs open up there will be more customers with more disposable income to pay your dad for his services?[/QUOTE] I guess my father is in more of a unique situation because he already has more clients than he can handle.

We aren't talking about "how can poor people better deal with poverty", we're talking about "how do poor people rise out of poverty". Sargon's solution for people dealing with a lack of job opportunities, growing up in areas with high levels of crime, recieving substandard education or being born into broken families is "get married". I really don't understand why it's so difficult to understand how stupid that solution is. This really isn't complicated. [editline]17th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=DuCT;51974732]I guess my father is in more of a unique situation because he already has more clients than he can handle.[/QUOTE] Great, now someone else in a similar position to your father is going to be able to do a similar thing, because now the economy can support more people in that role. Like, the world is big and complicated, there are downsides to everything. I just think it's important to recognize how something like immigration could benefit even people who are normally seen as the ones who lose out.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974708]marriage doesn't increase wealth either, the only thing you could argue that it does is reduce the overall financial burden for the people married, assuming they don't have kids. By the logic, we should legalize polygamy, since the more incomes you have combined the less poor people are. It just doesn't work that way.[/QUOTE] It doesn't increase wealth but if more people share the costs, more money will be left over. If 5 people live together, they might share a fridge. If they lived on their own, they would all need to buy their own fridge and so on.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974722]If two people work the same job at the same rate, and they get married, they've effectively doubled the wealth of the household. That's without counting the tax benefits and credit benefits that would increase their wealth further. [editline]wat[/editline] And now you've jumped the shark again with that polygamy bit. What are you even doing in this thread? It's not debating whatever it is.[/QUOTE] Your argument is that if two people who are in poverty get married, because their wealth is combined they're now wealthier. How does it not stand to reason that the more separate sources of income ýou combine, the more wealthy those people would be? Or are you saying that you can only combine two sources of income, and past that it doesn't matter?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974737]We aren't talking about "how can poor people better deal with poverty", we're talking about "how do poor people rise out of poverty".[/QUOTE] Ultimately it's up to the poor to get themselves out of poverty. That's an unfortunate reality of capitalism. I'm of the progressive mindset that people who aren't well off need financial assistance with food, education, healthcare, home costs, childcare, etc. Combine that with marriage and any benefits there, and they should have at least some of the tools needed to get somewhere in life. Hopefully far enough that their kids are at least a little better off than they were. It's a slow grind. I think a lot of the splitting of families in low-income households is due to incarceration via the war on drugs, and I'm in favor of legalizing those drugs. What you and I can do to make their lives better is figure out new ways to support them. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974760]Your argument is that if two people who are in poverty get married, because their wealth is combined they're now wealthier. How does it not stand to reason that the more separate sources of income ýou combine, the more wealthy those people would be? Or are you saying that you can only combine two sources of income, and past that it doesn't matter?[/QUOTE] There's social and child-raising questions to raise beyond financial with more than 2 parents. Is that a functional environment to raise children? Is it stable? Is it legal? This is all I'll say on it though as it's incredibly off-topic.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974760]Your argument is that if two people who are in poverty get married, because their wealth is combined they're now wealthier. How does it not stand to reason that the more separate sources of income ýou combine, the more wealthy those people would be? Or are you saying that you can only combine two sources of income, and past that it doesn't matter?[/QUOTE] I think we're reading a little too much into it entirely. Getting married for financial reasons and not much else is bound to have a net negative impact on your quality of life and is an incredibly shortsighted idea. Airline for the peanuts, etc etc.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51974737]We aren't talking about "how can poor people better deal with poverty", we're talking about "how do poor people rise out of poverty". Sargon's solution for people dealing with a lack of job opportunities, growing up in areas with high levels of crime, recieving substandard education or being born into broken families is "get married". I really don't understand why it's so difficult to understand how stupid that solution is. This really isn't complicated.[/QUOTE] It's long term though. Getting married and sticking together results in a better economy for the parents and children, leading to more opportunities and less broken families. Having a better economy means getting better education (in the US at least). Being educated (hopefully) leads to a job, which means less unemployment and less crime because of it.

[QUOTE=1/4 Life;51974767]Ultimately it's up to the poor to get themselves out of poverty. That's an unfortunate reality of capitalism. I'm of the progressive mindset that people who aren't well off need financial assistance with food, education, living conditions, etc. Combine that with marriage and any benefits there, and they should have at least some of the tools needed to get somewhere in life. Hopefully far enough that their kids are at least a little better off than they were. It's a slow grind.[/QUOTE] So you admit that Sargon's suggestion makes no sense as a solution in and of itself for getting people out of poverty? Because that's legit all I'm saying. That willingness of his to, in this one instance, say that correlation=causation, and then in the very next completely refusing to accept any explanation for the behavior of black people that isn't "they just felt like doing that" is my main complaint.

[url]https://twitter.com/psychicpebble/status/842827221039374336[/url] Wow, Destiny what the fuck is your problem.

Honestly I watched his debate with Jim and I can't say that I'm surprised to see this kind of tripe being posted [media]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/842828390667337729[/media]

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51974887][url]https://twitter.com/psychicpebble/status/842827221039374336[/url] Wow, Destiny what the fuck is your problem.[/QUOTE] I dunno if anyone has posted this yet, but it gets better: [url]https://clips.twitch.tv/HedonisticReliableSamosaKappaRoss[/url] I don't think I've ever watched someone have a spazz attack in 60 FPS before. It was magical.

[QUOTE=Sonador;51974899]I dunno if anyone has posted this yet, but it gets better: [url]https://clips.twitch.tv/HedonisticReliableSamosaKappaRoss[/url] I don't think I've ever watched someone have a spazz attack in 60 FPS before. It was magical.[/QUOTE] Did he just tell that dude to kill himself?