Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51976201]just because he's articulating it poorly doesnt mean he doesnt have an argument, that makes no sense.[/QUOTE] his point has been completely eclipsed by his burning desire to make everyone in the world as angry as possible

So, I just want to talk to this post here, [QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51975890]Winning an argument these days is determined how many quick zingers you make, and not your points. No one knows what a fallacy is anymore, and the only time fallacies are brought up is when it's used as a zinger. Arguing is now entirely based on character, and not points. Liberals get more flak for going out of control because let's be honest, youtube liberals talk snidely and relatively professionally, they focus on points and throw in zingers around it. When they act out of line, it's a greater fall from status. Alt-Right youtubers normalized immaturity, and found a way to dismiss it as it being "humor". If Naked Ape shat on artists, no one would give a shit because that's how he is.[/QUOTE] and the spirit of it in general. The entire "scandal," be it JonTron's inability to put a bikelock on the stupid part of his brain, or Destiny's inability to refrain from telling someone to off themselves (which I, as a person with depression, see as a pretty powerful thing to throw around with a cavalier attitude) is really all just a big, public [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_play"]Morality play.[/URL] Nobody is actually focusing one the substantative arguments. Nobody wants to simply say, "JonTron believed something that was factually wrong, that's too bad," and move on. Instead, they want to readily demonize one side or the other. Either Jon for daring to harbor evil, racist, white-power thoughts, or Destiny for being a smarmy faux-intellectual who simply sets up and knocks down [URL="https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/"]weak men,[/URL] of the type outlined here, [quote] One of the cutting-edge advances in fallacy-ology has been the weak man, a terribly-named cousin of the straw man. The straw man is a terrible argument nobody really holds, which was only invented so your side had something easy to defeat. The weak man is a terrible argument that only a few unrepresentative people hold, which was only brought to prominence so your side had something easy to defeat. For example, “I am a proud atheist and I don’t like religion. Think of the terrible things done by religion, like the actions of the Westboro Baptist Church. They try to disturb the funerals of heroes because they think God hates everybody. But this is horrible. Religious people can’t justify why they do things like this. That’s why I’m proud to be an atheist.” It’s not a straw man. There really is a Westboro Baptist Church, for some reason. But one still feels like the atheist is making things just a little too easy on himself. Maybe the problem is that the atheist is indirectly suggesting that Westboro Baptist Church is typical of religion? An implied falsehood? Then suppose the atheist posts on Tumblr: “I hate religious people who are rabidly certain that the world was created in seven days or that all their enemies will burn in Hell, and try to justify it through ‘faith’. You know, the sort of people who think that the Bible has all the answers and who hate anyone who tries to think for themselves.” Now there’s practically no implication that these people are typical. So that’s fine, right? On the other side of the world, a religious person is writing “I hate atheists who think morality is relative, and that this gives them the right to murder however many people stand between them and a world where no one is allowed to believe in God”. Again, not a straw man. The Soviet Union contained several million of these people. But if you’re an atheist, would you just let this pass? How about “I hate black thugs who rob people”? What are the chances a black guy reads that and says “Well, good thing I’m not a thug who robs people, he’ll probably love me”? [/quote] (Which, I'd agree, Jon is culpable of arguing against too.) But, since we're busy dealing with [I]Morality plays,[/I] not with real arguments (which would, if we were [I]really[/I] considering those, have no weird-uncle sting when we come to the conclusion, "Smith said something racist, because he endorsed facts that he did not realize were false. This does not mean however, that Smith inherently believes the whole spectrum of racist things.") then the ethos of what you're talking about becomes really, really important. And that's something that goes back to [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism"]Sophists[/URL] and [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees#Pharisees_and_Christianity"]Pharisees[/URL] for how old it is, and how absolutely [B]long[/B] humankind has been arguing over whether or not it's okay to be an "immature dick" while you argue. Because the Sophist's keenest failing was that they would, for leverage in public debates, completely abandon actual [I]arguments,[/I] and just begin hammering on their opponent's apparent lack of morality, faith, or virtue. And someone who's [I]clearly[/I] so weak-willed as to be immoral, faithless and wicked [I]can't[/I] believe or advocate for [B]anything[/B] that's true or right. Likewise, the Pharisees became the Biblical condemnation of, "Do as I say, not as I do." The hypocrisy writes itself in short hand. If you're going to try and show people how good and clever you are, and how [B]righteous and noble![/B] your ideas are, you can't immediately turn around and do things that flatly contradict, or implicitly contradict, what you're saying. Finally, it's not as if the "alt-Right" somehow lowered the level of the game all on their own, or were even the first to get their foot in the door. I won't waste much time on this. If you genuinely believe that somehow, a nebulous group of neo-nazis has pulled the [I]entire[/I] argumentative spectrum down, then I'm going to say that you've blatantly and conveniently ignored people like [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwjvwncT31w"]Rachel Maddow.[/URL]

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976206]But the fucking context matters, Idubbbz absolutely had a reason to say that[/QUOTE] We're saying that there wasn't a good enough reason nor is there ever a good enough reason to say that in good faith. [QUOTE]and he couldn't care more because it's very crystal clear that "kill yourself" doesn't affect Keemstar in any way.[/QUOTE] Who are you to say that it doesn't affect him? [QUOTE]Idubbbz doesn't do this expecting his actions to be out of good will, no one tells other to kill themselves out of good will, context matters and Idubbbz just doesn't care about telling how much of an asshole an asshole can be.[/QUOTE] The fact that he "doesnt care" is a mark against his character. Idubbbz himself literally said "either its all ok or none of it is".

[QUOTE=Asaratha;51976214] "had a reason to say that" lol[/QUOTE] Yes, I just said that his reasons are basically [QUOTE]Idubbbz just doesn't care about telling how much of an asshole an asshole can be.[/QUOTE]. Not because he wants to be somehow moral while telling someone to kill themselves.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51976197]Destiny just went nuclear on twitter. What is he even DOING.[/QUOTE] Problem is that people have missed out that he isn't saying animation is easy work, but that it isn't sound from a business perspective to have hundreds of thousands of subs and not use it to make money. His original argument was from an entirely YouTube content-creation angle, but everyone has construed it to interpret it as "Animation is easy, you should be making lots of money from it." I know he's going off the deep end, but he still wouldn't be that stupid to argue some that patently false.

[QUOTE=Atlascore;51976221][video]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/842896033810206720[/video] He just keeps getting worse and worse.[/QUOTE] "Who is this sassy child?" Honestly if I had to spend all my time reading his tweets I'd add to that figure.

[QUOTE=J!NX;51976211]My point is that if you can't think of a point to add into your argument and are just spouting dumb memeshit, you aren't really arguing anything. You're just circling a point you made until its completely useless to even argue it any more. If he had an argument he wouldn't be shit-posting like that.[/QUOTE] He's arguing that animators live from a relative position of privilege and are in no position to make judgments on the merits or quality of life of physical laborers who are often underpaid, overworked, and subject to serious health concerns and physical injury. That's his argument. He might be shitposting but there is a legitimate argument behind it.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51976199]His entire personality revolves around being like that, he's always saying dodgy shit.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Arc Nova;51976204]It doesn't make it okay but Destiny telling some Romanian teenager to slit his own throat and drown in his own blood is far worse[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976206]But the fucking context matters, Idubbbz absolutely had a reason to say that and he couldn't care more because it's very crystal clear that "kill yourself" doesn't affect Keemstar in any way. Idubbbz doesn't do this expecting his actions to be out of good will, no one tells other to kill themselves out of good will, context matters and Idubbbz just doesn't care about telling how much of an asshole an asshole can be.[/QUOTE] I don't get why its such an arbritrary thing when telling someone to off themselves is shitty in whatever context. Either you take no issue with something like that or you do, there's no real level of severity to a statement telling someone to off themselves, it's as clear as a statement can get regardless of how its delivered.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51976227] The fact that he "doesnt care" is a mark against his character. Idubbbz himself literally said "either its all ok or none of it is".[/QUOTE] What the hell are you on about, Idubbbz always never cared about being moral himself, you're using a quote he said about racial slurs to explain his whole character, it doesn't work like that. He even fucking mentioned that context matters in the same video you took that quote.

like if i told you to kill yourself in real life to your face no one would be laughing or brushing it off as a joke, just because the internet works a certain way doesn't really change the severity of this statement. You don't just get to pick and choose over who's justified in saying something like this. edit: merge

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976246]What the hell are you on about, Idubbbz always never cared about being moral himself, you're using a quote he said about racial slurs to explain his whole character, it doesn't work like that. He even fucking mentioned that context matters in the same video you took that quote.[/QUOTE] How am I using that quote to "explain his whole character"? I'm making a point that he's being hypocritical and that you guys are showing a lack of consistency in defending him. If he doesn't care about being a hypocrite or being in the wrong then fine, but that takes nothing away from my point. You cant go after Destiny for telling someone to kill themself if you put people like iDubbbz on a pedastal for doing it in a context that you deem appropriate. Context matters, but the context of these two situations is not so wildly different that it avows him of any wrongdoing.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51976257]How am I using that quote to "explain his whole character"? I'm making a point that he's being hypocritical and that you guys are showing a lack of consistency in defending him. If he doesn't care about being a hypocrite or being in the wrong then fine, but that takes nothing away from my point. You cant go after Destiny for telling someone to kill themself if you put people like iDubbbz on a pedastal for doing it in a context that you deem appropriate. Context matters, but the context of these two situations is not so wildly different that it avows him of any wrongdoing.[/QUOTE] the difference is that iDubbbz wasn't acting like a giant manchild

[QUOTE=mchapra;51976243]I don't get why its such an arbritrary thing when telling someone to off themselves is shitty in whatever context. Either you take no issue with something like that or you do, there's no real level of severity to a statement telling someone to off themselves, it's as clear as a statement can get regardless of how its delivered.[/QUOTE] That's just silly and overly clear cut. Idubbbz has always done risque humour like that and I'm pretty sure Keemstar isn't crying himself to sleep over it. It's not quite the same as angrily telling some random kid to kill himself for disagreeing with you.

[QUOTE=mchapra;51976251]like if i told you to kill yourself in real life to your face no one would be laughing or brushing it off as a joke, just because the internet works a certain way doesn't really change the severity of this statement. You don't just get to pick and choose over who's justified in saying something like this. edit: merge[/QUOTE] Because no one is laughing or brushing it off as a joke, it's a big insult, and it's essentially what Idubbbz did. "Kill Yourself" are 2 big bad words coupled together, but what effect can those words cause if it's used on someone who's completely used to hearing that for decades, someone who's an adult and who made a profit off griefing videos. That's what you're failing to realize and instead jumping on a conclusion that I think it's a joke or a moral thing to do

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;51976204]It doesn't make it okay but Destiny telling some Romanian teenager to slit his own throat and drown in his own blood is far worse[/QUOTE] That and he actually told his suicidal friend he can kill himself if he chooses to. And his friend actually did it. There is a clip in the Naked Ape video at 3:08, but I am looking for the source clip atm.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51976242]He's arguing that animators live from a relative position of privilege and are in no position to make judgments on the merits or quality of life of physical laborers who are often underpaid, overworked, and subject to serious health concerns and physical injury. That's his argument. He might be shitposting but there is a legitimate argument behind it.[/QUOTE] Yes, that is his argument. But now he's turned it into "lets just insult everyone" instead. He's no longer arguing his point, he's just using it to fling shit at people that disagree with him. I can agree with his argument, but I can't agree that he's actually arguing it any more. He's not arguing with people, he's [U]mocking[/U] them. It's stopped being about convincing anyone the moment he started being a dick.

[QUOTE=Xubs;51976262]well its working. im really fired up rearin to go, whos with me[/QUOTE] I'm just gonna unplug my router and put up the blast shields until this all blows over in a couple years

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;51976223]Finally, it's not as if the "alt-Right" somehow lowered the level of the game all on their own, or were even the first to get their foot in the door.[/QUOTE] (Just a disclaimer, I read your entire post and I agree with every word with it. I can't comment on something I fully agree with when you're pretty much said everything that needed to be said.) Oh of course not. Liberal commenters during the Bush Administration were famous for doing this, although not because they couldn't disprove Bush's shit policies, but more for entertainment.

Shadman already drew him [media]https://twitter.com/Shadbase/status/842895197205803008[/media]

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976310]Shadman already drew him [media]https://twitter.com/Shadbase/status/842895197205803008[/media][/QUOTE] [media]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/842899370357985281[/media]

[QUOTE=Tudd;51976285]That and he actually told his suicidal friend he can kill himself if he chooses to. And his friend actually did it. There is a clip in the Naked Ape video at 3:08, but I am looking for the source clip atm.[/QUOTE] Is this what you're looking for? [IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7KVvHwU8AMgQwu.jpg[/IMG] He says he regrets it, but man, thats really, really fucked up.

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976279]Because no one is laughing or brushing it off as a joke, it's a big insult, and it's essentially what Idubbbz did. "Kill Yourself" are 2 big bad words coupled together, but what effect can those words cause if it's used on someone who's completely used to hearing that for decades, someone who's an adult and who made a profit off griefing videos. That's what you're failing to realize and instead jumping on a conclusion that I think it's a joke or a moral thing to do[/QUOTE] But we are arguing the use of such a term, not its context. Doesn't really seem right to me that people are going oh this is bad but looking at the same thing delivered differently and going no this is perfectly fine. I did jump to a conclusion there but I still don't think it's a good thing to say regardless of the person on the recieving end is a shithead or not.

When the guy gets to the point where his tweets are so atrocious he would immediately get banned here, I feel like people need to start ignoring him.

[QUOTE=kr1f333;51976312]*absolute total creep who's looking for attention vs. complete asshole*[/QUOTE] It's like watching the Hindenburg crash into itself ad infinitum.

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976315]Is this what you're looking for? [IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7KVvHwU8AMgQwu.jpg[/IMG] He says he regrets it, but man, thats really, really fucked up.[/QUOTE] Seems he just took his silly liberal logic too far. Dumb, but he didn't exactly tell his friend to kill himself like nakedape implied.

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976310]Shadman already drew him [media]https://twitter.com/Shadbase/status/842895197205803008[/media][/QUOTE] it's like everyone's in a competition to be the pettiest person in the universe it's like a black hole of dickery that keeps gaining in power the more stars it consumes

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976315]Is this what you're looking for? [IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7KVvHwU8AMgQwu.jpg[/IMG] He says he regrets it, but man, thats really, really fucked up.[/QUOTE] if this is what people like nakedape and psychicpebbles are pulling out to attack destiny with then thats pretty fucking pathetic.

Everything is on fire.

[QUOTE=SenhorCreeper;51976315]Is this what you're looking for? [IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7KVvHwU8AMgQwu.jpg[/IMG] He says he regrets it, but man, thats really, really fucked up.[/QUOTE] Found the full clip. Starts around 36:33. And holy shit with the full context about how his friend ended up killing himself. [media]https://youtu.be/H5GMj0YUM98[/media] I mean it is good he regrets it, but he sure hasn't cut back on the "kill yourself" phrase as far as I can tell even though this happened in his life.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51976334]Seems he just took his silly liberal logic too far. Dumb, but he didn't exactly tell his friend to kill himself like nakedape implied.[/QUOTE] nakedape doesn't exactly seem like the person who would report on it without sensationalizing it even if it's a bit, anyway that's probably my first and last post about nakedape, couldn't really bother caring about nakedape.