Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;51981710]Literally nobody is saying it's okay, the only thing here that's pissing me off is people trying to point at his past like it's some stunning revelation that he didn't actually care. What happened with his friend has nothing to do with this.[/QUOTE] How do you still not get why people are mentioning that.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51981742]How do you still not get why people are mentioning that.[/QUOTE] I get it, "oh he keeps saying kill yourself even though his friend killed himself due to his own mistake!" You don't think about your more severe fuck-ups for your entire life because it drives you god-damn insane if you do. It makes him an asshole for saying kill yourself, anything more is making deep assumptions about a guy you barely know to make him look worse. Destiny is an asshole but trying to tie his words to an old shame of his because you think you know he feels no guilt and learned nothing based on a few brief interactions is shameful.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;51979418]Well off the top of my head, he's dismissed healthcare as some trivial thing people don't care about[/QUOTE] He is strongly in support of universal healthcare. I think this even comes up in one of his debates with Destiny.

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;51981807]I get it, "oh he keeps saying kill yourself even though his friend killed himself due to his own mistake!" You don't think about your more severe fuck-ups for your entire life because it drives you god-damn insane if you do. It makes him an asshole for saying kill yourself, anything more is making deep assumptions about a guy you barely know to make him look worse. Destiny is an asshole but trying to tie his words to an old shame of his because you think you know he feels no guilt and learned nothing based on a few brief interactions is shameful.[/QUOTE] His past and him telling people to kill themselves are very related and should be inspected(like they are). If he truly regretted what he did, what happens if he tells some guy to kill themselves and they actually do it? At best it's just irresponsible of him. At worst he is bullshitting and doesn't regret shit and hasn't learned any lessons from such a tragic event. Just because it's a meme(seriously who makes kill yourself a meme on their channel after telling a friend it's okay to kill themselves) does not somehow make it okay to casually spout it directed at other people. Dude either needs a dose of self-awareness or he's just a major asshole with no respect for someone he once called a friend. What if he picks the wrong person and tells that to someone with depression and that turns out to be enough to push them over? The way he treats suicide and depression like a meme as evident by his tweets is rather disgusting. I normally say nothing is safe from comedy use but this shit isn't funny. He's going way too far.

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;51981605] 1) [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1556449&p=51976223&highlight=#post51976223"]This entire event is a big public Morality Play.[/URL] Therefor, when Destiny gives up the moral highground by resorting to, for lack of a better phrase, "chimping out," yeah, it does discredit his calm-factman demeanor.[/QUOTE] [I]What the fuck are you talking about?[/I] This isn't purely some moral panic, this is people getting pissed off at Jon for spreading [B]factually untrue[/B] anecdotes and implications about race. People are getting up in arms because Jon was thought to be a chill guy, has a massive audience and goes on to spread shit like this. Jon and Destiny can [I]both be assholes[/I] and it doesn't magically make Jon less of a jerk who doesn't deserve to be told "No, that's wrong" because Destiny has a longer history of tantrums. Also- really, chimping out? The phrase most recently co-oped by /pol/goers to describe angry black people rioting? You couldn't have just said angry shitposting? It's not really relevant to the overall conversation I will readily admit but what a weird choice of words, man. [quote=Crazy Ivan]2) Regardless of whether or not you think it's "petty" to hold Destiny accountable for things he's said and done in the past, (in my opinion, it's not), Destiny claims to have been deeply affected by a suicide that he had a very minor role in. That he should essentially resort to "kill yourself" as a stock insult while somehow claiming to have grown as a person because of a friend's suicide is, if not blatantly hypocritical, looks so much like it that I can't tell it from real hypocrisy.[/quote] I will say that "kill yourself" is possibly one of the most toxic insults out there and I'm not going to defend his usage of the phrase, what I take issue with is bringing up a past trauma as a zinger. If you think his usage of the phrase with his past is strange and tasteless, fine- but to go so far as to imply that he secretly has no regret because he's abrasive and has no idea when to shut up is way too far in my book, something you would have no way of knowing from inherently heated internet arguments. [quote=Crazy Ivan]3) Taking those two things together, it does actively diminish the "size" of Jon's sins. There are in my opinion good reasons not to make too much of Jon grabbing the idiot ball once, on a live stream. Destiny on the other hand has a well chronicled history of consistent verbal abusiveness, targeted at people who either cannot defend themselves or do not, by any means, deserve it.[/quote] So wait, I don't know if I'm adequately wrapping my head around this. From what I'm gathering, you're saying that in your opinion nobody actually cares about the facts in this debate and it's just a war of angry moralists, so because Destiny is a storied asshole, that makes Jontron automatically less of an asshole. Please clarify if I've completely misinterpreted, I don't debate that often- but from where I'm currently standing that sounds like a completely asinine stretch of logic intended to allow Jon to get away from this cleaner than he probably should.

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;51981605]3) Taking those two things together, it does actively diminish the "size" of Jon's sins.[/QUOTE] Man, this mindset's fucking scary

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51982183]Man, this mindset's fucking scary[/QUOTE] I know, right? Ivan is really good at dressing up some crazy shit. "Jon grabbing the idiot ball once, on a live stream." Give me a break. He didn't "grab the idiot ball once", he gradually picked it up over time and held onto it firmly and childishly despite all evidence that the "idiot ball" was well within his grasp. It's not as if Jon just put on some hat that said "WHITE NATIONALIST" on it, he developed these positions over time and [I]believes in them[/I]. There is no justifying Jon's bullshit. He's fucking 26, I'd hope he's responsible for his own beliefs at this point.

Okay, attempts to diminish Jon's racism aside, it's clear that most people in this thread don't watch Destiny. I fail to see how a streamer who relies on interaction with his viewers would be able to maintain his source of income if he was actively targeting people to get them to kill themselves. Who would want to watch a person who encouraged a suicide live on camera? It's all about intent. He isn't inviting someone on to talk about their depression and saying "hey buddy, you should kill yourself." Given his high energy, he can come across as an inflammatory character. This attracts all sorts of trolls and baiters who try to get a ride out of him. He's saying "kill yourself" to those people. He isn't targeting people because of their suicidal tendencies. This should be easy to discern. I've been watching him since his competitive StarCraft 2 days, and he's attracted a lot of hate because of his high energy. Moving into a broader medium of general streaming, it's easy to see he'll attract more trolls, who will antagonize an extreme reaction out of him, so he'll be saying this to more people, which normalized it to him and his stream viewers. He's got a very close interaction with his viewers, which encourages long-time watchers, so to anyone outside of that circle on the surface it may seem to be deplorable. Contextually, the weight of him saying it isn't that strong. If he had been saying this to vulnerable people, then sure, I could understand the outrage. But all he uses it for is a medium to express his outrage, and shouldn't be used as a damning of his entire character.

[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;51981605] 3) Taking those two things together, it does actively diminish the "size" of Jon's sins. There are [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1556449&p=51977503&highlight=#post51977503"]in my opinion[/URL] good reasons not to make too much of Jon grabbing the idiot ball [I]once,[/I] on a [B]live[/B] stream. Destiny on the other hand has a well chronicled history of consistent verbal abusiveness, targeted at people who either cannot defend themselves or do not, by any means, deserve it.[/QUOTE] what the fuck is this reasoning what has destiny got to do with jontron saying that black people of all incomes are more criminal than white people did destiny make jontron say a load of racist shit? if you buy into crazy ivan's logic here i don't know what to tell you, other than you're buying into the [I]the most obvious attempt at deflection i've ever seen[/I]

[QUOTE=CMB Unit 01;51982233]Okay, attempts to diminish Jon's racism aside, it's clear that most people in this thread don't watch Destiny. I fail to see how a streamer who relies on interaction with his viewers would be able to maintain his source of income if he was actively targeting people to get them to kill themselves. Who would want to watch a person who encouraged a suicide live on camera? It's all about intent. He isn't inviting someone on to talk about their depression and saying "hey buddy, you should kill yourself." Given his high energy, he can come across as an inflammatory character. This attracts all sorts of trolls and baiters who try to get a ride out of him. He's saying "kill yourself" to those people. He isn't targeting people because of their suicidal tendencies. This should be easy to discern. I've been watching him since his competitive StarCraft 2 days, and he's attracted a lot of hate because of his high energy. Moving into a broader medium of general streaming, it's easy to see he'll attract more trolls, who will antagonize an extreme reaction out of him, so he'll be saying this to more people, which normalized it to him and his stream viewers. He's got a very close interaction with his viewers, which encourages long-time watchers, so to anyone outside of that circle on the surface it may seem to be deplorable. Contextually, the weight of him saying it isn't that strong. If he had been saying this to vulnerable people, then sure, I could understand the outrage. But all he uses it for is a medium to express his outrage, and shouldn't be used as a damning of his entire character.[/QUOTE] High energy is not an excuse to be a toxic asshole. It's not because of his high energy, it's his character that is inconsiderate and rash. Dude doesn't know how to manage his energy and expresses it in some quite horrible ways. Just because he isn't targeting people with depression or suicidal tendencies doesn't mean he won't target one due to ignorance and not knowing any better. Abuse is abuse and it doesn't make it ok just because he doesn't target X. When he goes into his "high speed rant" mode he spews a lot of emotionally charged and questionably abusive stuff. He is a stereotypical toxic gamer except in this case he also does debates and people actually defend his horrible characteristics. And why is he bullying and attacking animators and that animator dude? What's Destiny's issue? I'd say he's butthurt but he goes to great length to shit on them for some reason, almost like an obsession he doesn't know how to control due to his high energy. When he goes off, he goes off hard from what I've seen.He seriously needs to invest in anger management as it shows a lot when he gets frustrated and has trouble controlling himself at that point. The hate he attracts is NOT because of high energy but because he is quite rude and unnecessarily inflammatory. Unlike some other youtubers that use rudeness as a driver for humor, his is just crude and uncomical. When watching his videos it's almost like he's "bipolar" in a sense that he's calm and pleasant one moment but goes absolute shitlord the next. I'm surprised he has the following he does, he is not only unnecessarily dramatic, but also an unironic cunt half the time. [quote] I fail to see how a streamer who relies on interaction with his viewers would be able to maintain his source of income if he was actively targeting people to get them to kill themselves.[/quote] By that logic why do all the alt-right channels get huge fanbases? Quite frankly people love toxic behavior when it's not pointed at them.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51982249]what the fuck is this reasoning what has destiny got to do with jontron saying that black people of all incomes are more criminal than white people did destiny make jontron say a load of racist shit? if you buy into crazy ivan's logic here i don't know what to tell you, other than you're buying into the [I]the most obvious attempt at deflection i've ever seen[/I][/QUOTE] JonTron said the shit he said by his own volition as can be demonstrated by the VODs, to put that on Destiny's character is absurd, Destiny didn't coerce or set up JonTron.

He just posted this on twitter: [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIFf7qwlnSc[/media] It's a reasonable response.

Eh, I don't know I know it might seem like I just want to keep the hate train going, but I'm trying to be genuine here when I say it doesn't give me much pause to see he glossed over all of the contentious responses he gave, clarified nothing, and only doubled down on the more agreeable and base parts of his anti-SJW rhetoric

It's better than I expected in that, at the very least he recognizes he is really, really bad at debating. But he didn't mention "uncomfortable statistics", he said shit that is factually wrong and was parroting lines straight from alt-right sources, he even used the term mass-migration. We also misconstrued nothing, he's making it look like somehow his words were twisted but you can grab any 10 minute snippet of the debate and find him saying something questionable at least once. He's also completely contradicting himself by now saying discrimination in America exists. Him staying out of political debates is a good idea.

[QUOTE=Brt5470;51982307]He just posted this on twitter: [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIFf7qwlnSc[/media] It's a reasonable response.[/QUOTE] Fucking finally, can we just end the thread here?

Looks like it's finally the time for everyone involved with and following this shitshow to :chillout:

[QUOTE=Big Bang;51982355]It's better than I expected in that, at the very least he recognizes he is really, really bad at debating. But he didn't mention "uncomfortable statistics", he said shit that is factually wrong and was parroting lines straight from alt-right sources, he even used the term mass-migration. We also misconstrued nothing, he's making it look like somehow his words were twisted but you can grab any 10 minute snippet of the debate and find him saying something questionable at least once. He's also completely contradicting himself by now saying discrimination in America exists. Him staying out of political debates is a good idea.[/QUOTE] I don't think he was ever going to come out and say he was a good debater, I think he always knew he would never be one. Mass-migration is a thing, it's just not as problematic in America. He did change his stance completely on discrimination, but my theory here was he was referring to explicit government/state discrimination. But seemed reluctant to accept any non-alt right arguments.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51982437]Jon's just backpedaling like people normally do when this kind of stuff happens. So yeah threads over, nothing to see here. I think most people expected him to just backpedal anyway[/QUOTE] Did you think he would come out as a white nationalist? He was arguing badly, was all over the place, said unclear things without going into details. It was always likely that he didn't know what he was talking about.

[QUOTE=Brt5470;51982307]He just posted this on twitter: [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIFf7qwlnSc[/media] It's a reasonable response.[/QUOTE] "People like me are supposed to listen to people like you talk about oppression in America, it doesn't exist" "I absolutely recognise the discrimination black people face" Yeah the video really didn't clarify much. I want to believe it was just all down to him not articulating well but the video still comes off as backpedaling.

It clarifies that Jon still has no idea what he's saying.

[QUOTE=Brt5470;51982307]He just posted this on twitter: It's a reasonable response.[/QUOTE] no it isn't where's the mention that the "fact" that he brought up was total bullshit he's pushing this view that the method of him debating and discussing was the problem, when it's actually the ideas he was peddling that were [I]total shit[/I]

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51982521]no it isn't where's the mention that the "fact" that he brought up was total bullshit he's pushing this view that the method of him debating and discussing was the problem, when it's actually the ideas he was peddling that were [I]total shit[/I][/QUOTE] he seems to be saying something more along the lines "i don't believe what i said," and he even says in the video that he thinks the stuff he said sounded off-putting.

[QUOTE=Asaratha;51982567]idk dude, he just brought up that discrimination does exist after saying it's totally gone and people who think otherwise live in a fantasy land, and didn't even say "i was wrong" about it. he also brought up irish discrimination, and didnt he say that was a myth or something? seems like major backpedalling[/QUOTE] maybe because he's starting to change his mind after having his friends privately speak with him?

[QUOTE=Asaratha;51982582]then why not say "i was wrong about the things i said" rather than dancing around it?[/QUOTE] why would he have to explicitly list that, when just acknowledging what is true does the same thing???

[QUOTE=Asaratha;51982567]idk dude, he just brought up that discrimination does exist after saying it's totally gone and people who think otherwise live in a fantasy land, and didn't even say "i was wrong" about it. he also brought up irish discrimination, and didnt he say that was a myth or something? seems like major backpedalling[/QUOTE] it is backpedalling, but i don't think that's a bad thing since it tells me that he knows he fucked up and is trying to correct himself. i feel if he was the racist people say he is then he'd dig the hole deeper, or at least ignore everything. he still seems to hold some pretty questionable views, but he didn't really elaborate on them so it's hard to say what the specifics are of what he does and doesn't believe.

[QUOTE=Asaratha;51982594]dont really know what this means. are you asking why he should have to apologise for being wrong about black rich people committing more crime than poor whites, or being wrong about irish discrimination, or 180ing on discrimination in america, and whatever other wrong shit he's been proven wrong about time and time again, just because he reinforces a couple of opinions he feels is true?[/QUOTE] Him acknowledging Irish discrimination for example is the same thing as him saying he was wrong about it so idk why he'd need to explicitly say "YES I WAS WRONG ABOUT X".

[QUOTE=bdd458;51982606]Him acknowledging Irish discrimination for example is the same thing as him saying he was wrong about it so idk why he'd need to explicitly say "YES I WAS WRONG ABOUT X".[/QUOTE] he's still talking under the pretense of the statistics he cited were true when no such statistics exist? like thats the major thing people took issue with?

[QUOTE=bdd458;51982590]why would he have to explicitly list that, when just acknowledging what is true does the same thing???[/QUOTE] But it really doesn't? He's not really clarified anything about where his beliefs lie. He doubled down on some of it and left the rest in really vague, "sounded worse than it was"/"got misconstrued" ground. It makes the whole thing sound a bit dishonest and half-assed. He might have changed his mind here and there, or he might be saying what he thinks sounds right to get himself out of this mess. We simply have no way of knowing, since he ignored most of the statements people had a problem with

[QUOTE=Asaratha;51982612]saying "i was wrong about X" is a much better solution than just simply swapping your opinion on the spot. it's called owning up to your mistakes.[/QUOTE] There's more than one way to "own up to your mistakes"

debate: "People like me are supposed to listen to people like you talk about oppression in America, it doesn't exist" apolgoy vid: "the african community has had a raw deal, discrimination certainly exists" ???? so he's just joing back on dumb shit he said because it's convenient? lol