[QUOTE=Kentz;37432633]it is, actually
because unlike a socialist system you have a choice what you want to use or not[/QUOTE]
i wish i could opt out of the socialist system so i have the right to die of an easily preventable disease
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432627']Yes.
But we're arguing American right-Libertarianism, are we not? Free markets and all that? Because if we're just arguing the entire spectrum, then you need to start making cases for my ideology as well and anarchism here. Left-Libertarianism and right-Libertarianism are incompatible and totally different politically and economically.
Public education and equal opportunities are NOT American-Libertarian ideals. They are universally opposed by Libertarians not in the left-wing. In fact, I'd argue that most all Libertarian ideologies would oppose state-sponsored education.[/QUOTE]
I guess. I personally don't know where I fit on the libertarian spectrum. I tend to prefer classic liberals like John Locke over today's libertarians. But since I favor free markets over socialism, I would still call myself a right-libertarian, just not an american-libertarian.
Libertarianism just allows corrupt corporations to take advantage and become too powerful. Tbh i'd rather have government control than corporate control. Plus libertarianism is not good at all for minorities
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37432659]i wish i could opt out of the socialist system so i have the right to die of an easily preventable disease[/QUOTE]
I wish I could opt out of capitalism, because I don't like meritocracy or earning your pay. I like things handed to me. I also hate innovation, it scares me.
[editline]27th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=obdob;37432665]Libertarianism just allows corrupt corporations to take advantage and become too powerful. Tbh i'd rather have government control than corporate control. Plus libertarianism is not good at all for minorities[/QUOTE]
why is that? just because corporations don't have to pay large fees in taxes does not mean they control the government. Plus, libertarianism is not bad for minorites.
[QUOTE=obdob;37432665]Libertarianism just allows corrupt corporations to take advantage and become too powerful. Tbh i'd rather have government control than corporate control. Plus libertarianism is not good at all for minorities[/QUOTE]
yes freedom and free trade without restrictions will hurt black people
what
i am pretty sure racist values are largely caused by government intervention in the first place
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37432659]i wish i could opt out of the socialist system so i have the right to die of an easily preventable disease[/QUOTE]
Yeah have fun hacking your brains out for a few extra months or possibly dying on the waiting list. If I'm rich, I want the option to be treated first.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432662]I guess. I personally don't know where I fit on the libertarian spectrum. I tend to prefer classic liberals like John Locke over today's libertarians. But since I favor free markets over socialism, I would still call myself a right-libertarian, just not an american-libertarian.[/QUOTE]
American Libertarianism and right-Libertarianism are more or less the same thing.
Also, you can have socialism and free markets concurrently. That's what most Libertarian Socialists argue for. You seem to be confusing free markets with capitalism when they are not exclusively the same.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432706']American Libertarianism and right-Libertarianism are more or less the same thing.
Also, you can have socialism and free markets concurrently. That's what most Libertarian Socialists argue for. You seem to be confusing free markets with capitalism when they are not exclusively the same.[/QUOTE]
I'm not familiar with how that works, could you possibly explain?
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432706']American Libertarianism and right-Libertarianism are more or less the same thing.
Also, you can have socialism and free markets concurrently. That's what most Libertarian Socialists argue for. You seem to be confusing free markets with capitalism when they are not exclusively the same.[/QUOTE]
what is the difference between capitalism and free markets?
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432675]I wish I could opt out of capitalism, because I don't like meritocracy or earning your pay. I like things handed to me. I also hate innovation, it scares me.
[/QUOTE]
well its a good thing that the libertarian dystopia you dream of will never exist
i look forward to the 21st century as one ruled by 21st century ideas, and not 18th century ones.
[QUOTE=Kentz;37432696]i am pretty sure racist values are largely caused by government intervention in the first place[/QUOTE]
did you know governments banned slavery?
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432722]what is the difference between capitalism and free markets?[/QUOTE]
I seem to recall capitalism being a little cutthroat, unless I'm mistaken.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37432733]well its a good thing that the libertarian dystopia you dream of will never exist
i look forward to the 21st century as one ruled by 21st century ideas, and not 18th century ones.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I see you agree with me that innovation and economic growth are scary! good for you!
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37432733]well its a good thing that the libertarian dystopia you dream of will never exist
i look forward to the 21st century as one ruled by 21st century ideas, and not 18th century ones.[/QUOTE]
Socialism is older than capitalism, you know. Earliest humans lived as tribes, etc.
[QUOTE=Kartoffel;37432740]I seem to recall capitalism being a little cutthroat, unless I'm mistaken.[/QUOTE]
free markets are cutthroat too.
[QUOTE=Kentz;37432696]yes freedom and free trade without restrictions will hurt black people
what
i am pretty sure racist values are largely caused by government intervention in the first place[/QUOTE]
Er...no.
The Southern US has a long history of cultural racism, and for most of the last 2 centuries it was in opposition to the beliefs or enforcement of the federal government.
But Libertarianism (right) does remove the rights and protections that create equality between races because of strict monitoring of public accommodation and businesses. If the federal government was weakened and no longer capable or able to do this, then you bet your ass that much of the American South would happily discriminate in housing, business, wages, financial support, and healthcare against blacks and latinos. If you give business owners the liberty to discriminate (as right Libertarianism advocates), then they will.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432747]free markets are cutthroat too.[/QUOTE]
Well, I guess that's good. There's something about cutthroat markets that make everything more exciting.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;37432746]Socialism is older than capitalism, you know. Earliest humans lived as tribes, etc.[/QUOTE]
point is that you dont cling onto a political ideal as though its the cure to all the worlds problems
newsflash: libertarianism and marxism will only exist in the history books
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432763']Er...no.
The Southern US has a long history of cultural racism, and for most of the last 2 centuries it was in opposition to the beliefs or enforcement of the federal government.
But Libertarianism (right) does remove the rights and protections that create equality between races because of strict monitoring of public accommodation and businesses. If the federal government was weakened and no longer capable or able to do this, then you bet your ass that much of the American South would happily discriminate in housing, business, wages, financial support, and healthcare against blacks and latinos. If you give business owners the liberty to discriminate (as right Libertarianism advocates), then they will.[/QUOTE]
That's assuming that every southerner is a racist hillbilly that only cares for making minorities inferior.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432763']Er...no.
The Southern US has a long history of cultural racism, and for most of the last 2 centuries it was in opposition to the beliefs or enforcement of the federal government.
But Libertarianism (right) does remove the rights and protections that create equality between races because of strict monitoring of public accommodation and businesses. If the federal government was weakened and no longer capable or able to do this, then you bet your ass that much of the American South would happily discriminate in housing, business, wages, financial support, and healthcare against blacks and latinos. If you give business owners the liberty to discriminate (as right Libertarianism advocates), then they will.[/QUOTE]
Ha, have you actually been to the south for any length of time recently? Have you ever lived there? I was born in Atlanta, lived there all of my life. The northern stereotype of the gun-totin' negro-lynching redneck does not exist much at all any more, and [b]especially[/b] not in a corporate environment. If I was a CEO, if any man, regardless of race, had a better application then all of the rest of the men, I'd hire him. You want to know why? Not because he's white, not because I haven't met my quota for hiring blacks that quarter, but because he's the best man for the job. And that's the only policy there should be, really. Affirmative action and its relatives are nothing but racism, and it's foolhardy to regard it as anything but.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;37432780]point is that you dont cling onto a political ideal as though its the cure to all the worlds problems
newsflash: libertarianism and marxism will only exist in the history books[/QUOTE]
You sure? because libertarianism is definitely making a comeback.
[QUOTE=Kentz;37432602]if access to universal waiting lists and overly expensive health care expendures is better then ok
[video=youtube;Nt0tKl0J-S4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt0tKl0J-S4&feature=relmfu[/video][/QUOTE]
hahahah this man actually believes this
someone's been watching the o'reilly factor's ooga booga socialist healthcare makes everyone die a bit too much
i've known quite a few cancer patients in my time, and various other otherwise incredibly expensive disease-afflicted people in my time and they all had the best service possible on the NHS. for you to even attempt to dispute the number one employer in the world's credibility would require either a really big lie or a dysfunctional brain
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432838]You sure? because libertarianism is definitely making a comeback.[/QUOTE]
Mostly because both the right and the left are making some really foolish decisions and make both sides look stupid, leaving only the middle grounds (like libertarianism) looking good.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432722]what is the difference between capitalism and free markets?[/QUOTE]
A free market is a market that is not controlled by the state. It is self regulating and is mostly comprised of competing producers.
Capitalism is an economic model where a business person who is the owner of capital makes profit off the labor of others using that capital in exchange for a wage/a lesser share of the profit for the value of their labor.
A socialist free market would see cooperative ownership of the capital, generally without internal hierarchy, with profit being divided among the workers who used the capital.
Essentially- capitalism exclusively refers to a mode of production wherein an individual lends the use of capital he or she owns to workers, whose labor using that capital produces value in the form of profit. The capitalist keeps all the profit and returns a small percentage to the workers.
Free markets are markets without large amounts of regulation, are not controlled economies, and are not command economies. You can have capitalist and socialist free markets.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432763']Er...no.
The Southern US has a long history of cultural racism, and for most of the last 2 centuries it was in opposition to the beliefs or enforcement of the federal government.
But Libertarianism (right) does remove the rights and protections that create equality between races because of strict monitoring of public accommodation and businesses. If the federal government was weakened and no longer capable or able to do this, then you bet your ass that much of the American South would happily discriminate in housing, business, wages, financial support, and healthcare against blacks and latinos. If you give business owners the liberty to discriminate (as right Libertarianism advocates), then they will.[/QUOTE]
You know the recent Chick-fil-A thing? People have stopped going there, etc. Companies have reputations.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432870']A free market is a market that is not controlled by the state. It is self regulating and is mostly comprised of competing producers.
Capitalism is an economic model where a business person who is the owner of capital makes profit off the labor of others using that capital in exchange for a wage/a lesser share of the profit for the value of their labor.
A socialist free market would see cooperative ownership of the capital, generally without internal hierarchy, with profit being divided among the workers who used the capital.
Essentially- capitalism exclusively refers to a mode of production wherein an individual lends the use of capital he or she owns to workers, whose labor using that capital produces value in the form of profit. The capitalist keeps all the profit and returns a small percentage to the workers.
Free markets are markets without large amounts of regulation, are not controlled economies, and are not command economies. You can have capitalist and socialist free markets.[/QUOTE]
okay, I understand. I would still place myself as a right-libertarian then. I have no problem with individuals owning the means of production. Then again, I also don't care if a worker co-op controls the means of production.
[QUOTE=Wealth + Taste;37432832]Ha, have you actually been to the south for any length of time recently? Have you ever lived there? I was born in Atlanta, lived there all of my life. The northern stereotype of the gun-totin' negro-lynching redneck does not exist much at all any more, and [b]especially[/b] not in a corporate environment. If I was a CEO, if any man, regardless of race, had a better application then all of the rest of the men, I'd hire him. You want to know why? Not because he's white, not because I haven't met my quota for hiring blacks that quarter, but because he's the best man for the job. And that's the only policy there should be, really. Affirmative action and its relatives are nothing but racism, and it's foolhardy to regard it as anything but.[/QUOTE]
I lived in New Mexico for 6 months. I saw enough discrimination to know that the American Southwest has its racial issues. We already have enough racial discrimination in all fields in the North and the South by businesses and especially financial institutions. To pretend that is doesn't exist is idiotic, and to assume that because you wouldn't do it, no one would do it out of the good will of their hearts or because of the padding they'd get in their wallets is pretty much silly.
And I agree on affirmative action, except you're confusing racism with discrimination. I don't see how it's related to the issue of the debate.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432912']I lived in New Mexico for 6 months. I saw enough discrimination to know that the American Southwest has its racial issues. We already have enough racial discrimination in all fields in the North and the South by businesses and especially financial institutions. To pretend that is doesn't exist is idiotic, and to assume that because you wouldn't do it, no one would do it out of the good will of their hearts or because of the padding they'd get in their wallets is pretty much silly.
And I agree on affirmative action, except you're confusing racism with discrimination. I don't see how it's related to the issue of the debate.[/QUOTE]
Racism is just a form of discrimination.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37432912']I lived in New Mexico for 6 months. I saw enough discrimination to know that the American Southwest has its racial issues. We already have enough racial discrimination in all fields in the North and the South by businesses and especially financial institutions. To pretend that is doesn't exist is idiotic, and to assume that because you wouldn't do it, no one would do it out of the good will of their hearts or because of the padding they'd get in their wallets is pretty much silly.
And I agree on affirmative action, except you're confusing racism with discrimination. I don't see how it's related to the issue of the debate.[/QUOTE]
to be fair, the Southwest is not the South. And racism is discrimination.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;37432872]You know the recent Chick-fil-A thing? People have stopped going there, etc. Companies have reputations.[/QUOTE]
One tiny instance. No one stopped going to Coca Cola when they assassinated labor leaders and no one stopped buying from Hersey and Nestle when people found out they got their cocoa from producers using child slave labor.
You underestimate the power of PR and the basic mistakes made by Chick-fil-A.
Some small business owner who owns the corner shop on the outskirts of town isn't going to give a shit about his 'reputation' if his cultural, social, or internal positions are already known and supported. Small businesses especially, like the one I work for, have a dedicated customer base, and both parties have a relationship that extends to knowing where they both stand on issues in the community and in ideology.
[editline]27th August 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432953]to be fair, the Southwest is not the South. And racism is discrimination.[/QUOTE]
But racial discrimination is not necessarily racism. and yes, you are right, but the South does, even today, have the worst record of discrimination out of anywhere else in the nation. The majority of notable court cases involving racial discrimination come from the South.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37432838]You sure? because libertarianism is definitely making a comeback.[/QUOTE]
Source?
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