Is Libertarianism a Good Idea? - General

[QUOTE=Noble;37435472]ah, yeah. you're right I do have a choice! I could also just make the choice to commit suicide too and then I won't have to worry about taxes at all. So now we have a justification for taxation because I have a way to avoid paying it. But let's be serious, what is their justification for imposing a debt on me just for interacting with other individuals? (i.e. buying and selling things - including selling my labor)[/QUOTE] buying or earning money means you take advantage of the infrastructure paid for by the community. if you do something like mow someone's lawn, a job that is completely independent of communal infrastructure, then you won't pay taxes anyway. however big businesses take advantage of the utilities we the people made for them, companies are administered, registered, and cleared for business by government agencies which insure service and reliability based on regulations. stores can operate based on the massive transit and infrastructure that people pay for in their communities.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37435702]In this case by renouncing your citizenship but apparently this isn't enough[/QUOTE] is there a way to renounce your citizenship? is there? [editline]27th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;37435715]buying or earning money means you take advantage of the infrastructure paid for by the community. if you do something like mow someone's lawn, a job that is completely independent of communal infrastructure, then you won't pay taxes anyway. however big businesses take advantage of the utilities we the people made for them, companies are administered, registered, and cleared for business by government agencies which insure service and reliability based on regulations. stores can operate based on the massive transit and infrastructure that people pay for in their communities.[/QUOTE] his argument is that those services should be privatized.

[QUOTE=Noble;37435472]ah, yeah. you're right I do have a choice! I could also just make the choice to commit suicide too and then I won't have to worry about taxes at all. So now we have a justification for taxation because I have a way to avoid paying it. But let's be serious, what is their justification for imposing a debt on me just for interacting with other individuals? (i.e. buying and selling things - including selling my labor)[/QUOTE] the congo has all the liberties you need if you ever feel like moving there

[QUOTE=Pepin;37435297]Disproving the validity of libertarianism is quite easy. Where most people go wrong is that they refute the conclusions of a moral principal, as opposed to refuting the moral principle. For those who aren't sure about what is at the heart of libertarianism, it is property rights and the non-aggression principal. There are many proofs for property rights, many emphasizing self-ownership and owning of actions. If self-ownership can be disproved, or that someone does not own their actions, then libertarianism is dead in the water. Really, the concept of the non-aggression principal is logically destroyed when self-ownership does not exist, as aggression cannot exist without self-ownership, just as the act of "love making cannot exists between corpses". If for whatever reason you accept the two moral axioms, then the discussion has to focus on how the principals are incorrectly to the real world.[/QUOTE] how about you disprove it then? self-ownership is not an easy thing to disprove, and I doubt anyone here truly believes we do not own ourselves.

[QUOTE=Bobie;37435743]the congo has all the liberties you need if you ever feel like moving there[/QUOTE] You mean Ethiopia. Neither of the Congos are particularly free.

[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37434597] You only have money because the government has it printed and cast, it is right to give some back so that it may be redistributed to those who actually need it.[/QUOTE] by that argument, Staples should be able to reclaim my laptop, because there are poor kids who need it. People get money by trading something of worth for it. To get the money back, you have to give them something that they think is worth that much money. Otherwise, it is theft.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435719]is there a way to renounce your citizenship? is there? [/QUOTE] Go to your nearest consular official and sign an oath of renunciation

[QUOTE=Noble;37435617]What if I explicitly outline my "right" to own the sun, and then collect 100% of your income as a result of taking in "my sunlight". If you don't agree to it, you can just go live in a cave. Just because the government claims a "right" to something doesn't mean they have one. Their claims to be justified in taxing you because you live in "their country" are preposterous.[/QUOTE] It isn't as if the government is taking all of your money and stuffing it into their pockets, at least it wouldn't be in the argument about ideologies that I am making. Say you pay income tax, or some other tax, and your money goes back to the people who helped urbanize the land and the people who run the hospital which provides you with healthcare and the police which keep the crime rates from spiraling out of control and the firemen who wash away the destruction of fire and the utility workers who keep power flowing through the electrical lines. You are paying for more than the right to live 'their' country, not wanting to pay taxes simply because "they're forcing me to do it." is rather odd. It's understandable that you are mad about the high tax rates that you have right now, though that is the effect of the people like the generations of politicians making their mark in the civilian economy to fill their pockets. They're the same people who evade taxes themselves, they are in essence the selfish.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;37435816]Go to your nearest consular official and sign an oath of renunciation[/QUOTE] except I'll be forced to leave my house. [QUOTE]Americans cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html"]http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html[/URL] That, and I will still have to pay taxes.

[QUOTE=thisispain;37435715]buying or earning money means you take advantage of the infrastructure paid for by the community.[/quote] The fact that someone benefits from a service they never agreed to pay for doesn't automatically mean they are in debt for it. Try mowing your neighbor's lawn while they're out of town and sending them a bill for $400, because they benefited from your services and now supposedly owe you a debt.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435814]by that argument, Staples should be able to reclaim my laptop, because there are poor kids who need it. People get money by trading something of worth for it. To get the money back, you have to give them something that they think is worth that much money. Otherwise, it is theft.[/QUOTE] Cash is different from electronics, it doesn't feed mouths - though I doubt we would need to speak about using cash as a means to stave hunger if we were speaking about a monetary system within the boundaries of Socialism or Communism.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435814]by that argument, Staples should be able to reclaim my laptop, because there are poor kids who need it. People get money by trading something of worth for it. To get the money back, you have to give them something that they think is worth that much money. Otherwise, it is theft.[/QUOTE] I'm not big on taxes, but you pay the government so you can use the public services, roads, and schools that you do. You owe the government in that way, and they get to use the money however they (we) see fit.

[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37435823] not wanting to pay taxes simply because "they're forcing me to do it." is rather odd.[/QUOTE] Really? i usually don't like being forced to do things.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435862]except I'll be forced to leave my house. [URL]http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html[/URL] That, and I will still have to pay taxes.[/QUOTE] Well yes, that is how citizenship works.

[QUOTE=Noble;37435866]The fact that someone benefits from a service they never agreed to doesn't automatically mean they are in debt for it. Try mowing your neighbor's lawn while they're out of town and sending them a bill for $400, because they benefited from your services and now supposedly owe you a debt.[/QUOTE] just because the government makes bad choices with your money doesn't mean the root cause of the problem is taxing. it is humanity's duty to care for one another; if people only believe in self and not community then how can you possibly expect all progression to [i]not[/i] stagnate

[QUOTE=Noble;37435866]The fact that someone benefits from a service they never agreed to doesn't automatically mean they are in debt for it. Try mowing your neighbor's lawn while they're out of town and sending them a bill for $400, because they benefited from your services and now supposedly owe you a debt.[/QUOTE] That's completely different. When you use a road, you benefit. When you mow someones lawn, they benefit. Try stealing a burger from McDonalds and saying you don't owe them anything. [editline]27th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lonestriper;37435903]Well yes, that is how citizenship works.[/QUOTE] Yes, i know. But that means that they are forcing you of your property. They can make you stop using public services, but they can't make you give up your property. [editline]27th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37435885]Cash is different from electronics, it doesn't feed mouths - though I doubt we would need to speak about using cash as a means to stave hunger if we were speaking about a monetary system within the boundaries of Socialism or Communism.[/QUOTE] Cash feeds mouths? really? I thought food fed people?

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435923]Yes, i know. But that means that they are forcing you of your property. They can make you stop using public services, but they can't make you give up your property.[/QUOTE] You don't have to give it up, you just can't live there

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37435900']I'm not big on taxes, but you pay the government so you can use the public services, roads, and schools that you do. You owe the government in that way, and they get to use the money however they (we) see fit.[/QUOTE] I agree. I'm just saying they can't reclaim it simply because they built it. [editline]27th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lonestriper;37435943]You don't have to give it up, you just can't live there[/QUOTE] "You don't have to give up your money, you just can't spend it". Telling me I can't use my property is theft. If I can't use it, it's not really mine anymore.

[QUOTE=Bobie;37435912]just because the government makes bad choices with your money doesn't mean the root cause of the problem is taxing. it is humanity's duty to care for one another; if people only believe in self and not community then how can you possibly expect all progression to [i]not[/i] stagnate[/QUOTE] I'm not opposed to community and interaction, as long as it's voluntary. [QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435923]That's completely different. When you use a road, you benefit. When you mow someones lawn, they benefit. Try stealing a burger from McDonalds and saying you don't owe them anything.[/QUOTE] Let me try a different example then. What if I buy a bug zapper and put it in my backyard. It benefits me by keeping mosquitoes away, but also since my neighbor might live close, it benefits them as well. Should I send my neighbor a bill for 50% of the price of the bug zapper, as their "debt" for something they never agreed to pay for?

[QUOTE=Bobie;37435912]just because the government makes bad choices with your money doesn't mean the root cause of the problem is taxing. it is humanity's duty to care for one another; if people only believe in self and not community then how can you possibly expect all progression to [i]not[/i] stagnate[/QUOTE] Why is it our duty to care for one another? No one told me this.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435923] Yes, i know. But that means that they are forcing you of your property. They can make you stop using public services, but they can't make you give up your property. [/QUOTE] Why do you assume you own property? you do know that because the government extends your right to own that property, it's yours, right? The only thing stopping you from having to fend for yourself and defend your own claims is the government that you pay to protect your property for you. I mean, if you don't want to pay taxes then they'll just try to take your property, and then you can be a real libertarian and enact your liberty to defend your claimed property, eh?

[QUOTE=Noble;37435966]I'm not opposed to community and interaction, as long as it's voluntary. Let me try a different example then. What if I buy a bug zapper and put it in my backyard. It benefits me by keeping mosquitoes away, but also since my neighbor might live close, it benefits them as well. Should I send my neighbor a bill for 50% of the price of the bug zapper, as their "debt" for something they never agreed to pay for?[/QUOTE] That once again is different. They did not mean to benefit from it, they just did. People only pay for stuff when they choose to benefit from it. It's called a public good.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435970]Why is it our duty to care for one another? No one told me this.[/QUOTE] because nobody chooses to be born into poverty, with disability, with less fortune than another. selfishness kills, and it kills by the billions.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37436000]That once again is different. They did not mean to benefit from it, they just did. People only pay for stuff when they choose to benefit from it. It's called a public good.[/QUOTE] But a business owner doesn't choose to benefit from infrastructure that helps his customers get in there and purchase things, he just did.

[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];37435990']Why do you assume you own property? you do know that because the government extends your right to own that property, it's yours, right? The only thing stopping you from having to fend for yourself and defend your own claims is the government that you pay to protect your property for you. I mean, if you don't want to pay taxes then they'll just try to take your property, and then you can be a real libertarian and enact your liberty to defend your claimed property, eh?[/QUOTE] No. Government does not give us property rights, they defend our property rights. [editline]27th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Noble;37436025]But a business owner doesn't choose to benefit from infrastructure that helps his customers get in there and purchase things, he just did.[/QUOTE] Yes he does. He chooses to use public roads. How else does he get home? or get supplies?

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37435970]Why is it our duty to care for one another? No one told me this.[/QUOTE] Because if no one took care of one another then we wouldn't have communities, societies, or humanity. No interaction, no welfare, no people. The most simple interaction of a society is the interaction between people. Denying that you have a duty to care for your fellow man, because of whom you exist, is denying that anyone deserve any fruits of society or others. You're basically saying that you want to be able to but a chair on your own, and own that chair, and never give it up for anyone, but you also don't want to make sure the people who built the chair are taken care of, and you don't want to maintain the chair itself, or the people who maintain the chair. When the chair breaks, you have no one to blame but yourself. [editline]27th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37436032]No. Government does not give us property rights, they defend our property rights.[/QUOTE] did you miss my explanation of rights vs liberties? Government gives ALL rights. You do not have rights naturally, you have liberties.

[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37436032]Yes he does. He chooses to use public roads. How else does he get home? or get supplies?[/QUOTE] What else is he going to do? Walk 20 miles through the woods to get home? There's no choice to use public roads, at least not any real/sensible choice.

[QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37434597]If everyone had a choice, the poorer would get poorer and the richer would get richer. Those who are selfless should make decisions for the selfish, and it is finding those people that are the problem.[/QUOTE] Aren't the logical implications of almost every one of those statements be that the creation of a government would be catastrophic? [QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37434597]If everyone had a choice, the poorer would get poorer and the richer would get richer.[/QUOTE] If this is the case, then logically any collective decision by a majority as in the form of direct democracy would have that result as well. Really, supporting any form of Democratic system would be in support in widening the gap, and not the good kind. Also logically, any small group of specialists would be even more likely to follow through on this instinct due to the psychological effects of power an conjunction with the inherent premise. [QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37434597]Those who are selfless should make decisions for the selfish, and it is finding those people that are the problem.[/QUOTE] Even assuming the premise, there is an issue of practicality as surely the selfish will always overpower the selfless. In a way, wouldn't it be like assigning a hen to lead a pack of foxes? Also, logically, if most people are selfish, then most people will elect someone who holds their values. [QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37434597]A true theft would be a gunman holding you hostage and emptying your wallet, or an identity thief scanning your credit card with one of those secret magnet readers. Taxes/tributes =/= theft.[/QUOTE] It seems that we can agree that theft is the removal of property by force. So the question is, are taxes the removal of property? Certainly yes. Now the question is, are taxes voluntary. If they are, taxes are not theft, if they aren't, then it clearly is theft. [QUOTE=U.S.S.R;37434597]You only have money because the government has it printed and cast, it is right to give some back so that it may be redistributed to those who actually need it[/QUOTE] Can you explain? I'm not quite able to comprehend this.

[QUOTE=Bobie;37436003]because nobody chooses to be born into poverty, with disability, with less fortune than another. selfishness kills, and it kills by the billions.[/QUOTE] So? just because someone is born into poverty doesn't mean we MUST care for them. And so what if selfishness kills? if I am not actively using violence against someone, it's not my fault. Plus, it does not kill by the billions. That is a huge overstatement.

[QUOTE=Noble;37436055]What else is he going to do? Walk 20 miles through the woods to get home? There's no choice to use public roads, at least not any real/sensible choice.[/QUOTE] "I DIDN'T CHOOSE TO PAY FOR THESE ROADS! ... but i kinda want them you know, keep them there for now" [QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;37436078]So? just because someone is born into poverty doesn't mean we MUST care for them. And so what if selfishness kills? if I am not actively using violence against someone, it's not my fault. Plus, it does not kill by the billions. That is a huge overstatement.[/QUOTE] what about the billions in slave labour across the globe then, or dying as a result of perpetual man-made impoverished environments because of trade hundreds of years ago (i.e africa) the fact that your beliefs are based off of the foundation that "people die, get over it" is quite frankly sickening. if you were born into poverty i'm sure you would not be such an advocate of the 'free market'; but as an armchair middle-class internet frequenter it's all too easy to be lured by the wonderful scent of money.