I took a gender studies class so you dont have to - General

[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52057108]Modern "feminism" doesn't care about /any/ of these issues lol what echo chamber do you live in? Modern "feminism" is this [old video but this guy is great] [video=youtube;ZOXh5repOWI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOXh5repOWI[/video] It's little jabs, meaningless banter to try to demean men and elevate themselves in the most trivial of matters because "Men used to rule the world but now we want to! Equality isn't good enough! Male tears!", while ignoring real issues for women around the world, those who have it way worse. Feminists don't campaign to solve gender inequality in the Middle East or Africa at large, they scream about male scientists wearing Hawaiian shirts with gun-babes on them. They're too afraid to do the real work the Suffragettes did. The real work black and gay rights advocates did 50 years ago. They're seeking to make gender an issue where it doesn't have to be one, and screaming at those who disagree over the internet. I'm all for equality (I mean duh holy shit) but how do you not see the issue with modern feminism's antics? 10% of the world (you) is blind to the other 70% who are on your side (us) but laughing/cringing/head-desking at your antics, and the other 20% of bigots and assholes are just having their views reenforced. Just like turbo-liberals and turbo-conservatives, you're taking your movement backwards. /Previous iterations of Feminism/ wanted to fix these issues. Egalitarians want to fix these issues. /Modern Feminism/ does not. There's a reason less and less people identify as feminists these days[/QUOTE] Couldn't agree more

I don't agree with those gender study types, but just thought this was ironic. We are now doing the same thing they were doing in the classroom. Enforcing our own beliefs and agreeing with one another

my favorite meme is the "modern feminism" meme like a complicated ideology with different interpretations such as feminism has one set type and is neatly divided up into eras for you to strawman or put up on a pedastal, like people are not infinitely complex to believe such concepts in a granular scale. It just screams of how little someone understands of people. [editline]4th April 2017[/editline] it's the pseudo intellectual variant of the "le wrong generation" meme

[QUOTE=BlackBirdNL;52057465]I don't agree with those gender study types, but just thought this was ironic. We are now doing the same thing they were doing in the classroom. Enforcing our own beliefs and agreeing with one another[/QUOTE] I dunno about you but I'm mostly just seeing arguments in this thread. Where are you looking in here to see all the validation and agreement?

[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52057108]Modern "feminism" doesn't care about /any/ of these issues lol what echo chamber do you live in? Modern "feminism" is this [old video but this guy is great] [video=youtube;ZOXh5repOWI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOXh5repOWI[/video] It's little jabs, meaningless banter to try to demean men and elevate themselves in the most trivial of matters because "Men used to rule the world but now we want to! Equality isn't good enough! Male tears!", while ignoring real issues for women around the world, those who have it way worse. Feminists don't campaign to solve gender inequality in the Middle East or Africa at large, they scream about male scientists wearing Hawaiian shirts with gun-babes on them. They're too afraid to do the real work the Suffragettes did. The real work black and gay rights advocates did 50 years ago. They're seeking to make gender an issue where it doesn't have to be one, and screaming at those who disagree over the internet. I'm all for equality (I mean duh holy shit) but how do you not see the issue with modern feminism's antics? 10% of the world (you) is blind to the other 70% who are on your side (us) but laughing/cringing/head-desking at your antics, and the other 20% of bigots and assholes are just having their views reenforced. Just like turbo-liberals and turbo-conservatives, you're taking your movement backwards. /Previous iterations of Feminism/ wanted to fix these issues. Egalitarians want to fix these issues. /Modern Feminism/ does not. There's a reason less and less people identify as feminists these days[/QUOTE] aka I don't have a fucking clue who or what I'm talking about. I can boil your argument down to a lovely little thing caaalled........ [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/5Pawtr5.gif[/IMG] aka quit complaining, children are starving in Africa! You need to learn that a vocal minority does not represent the majority. Unless of course you're fine with me saying all Canadians are morons. Women are still not equal, and if you were really all about equality you wouldn't be shitposting and getting your knickers in a twist over a select few morons who ruin it for everyone else. Everyone else that you should be standing with, NOT lumping into the failure you call [I]'modern feminism'.[/I]

[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52057108]Modern "feminism" doesn't care about /any/ of these issues lol what echo chamber do you live in? Modern "feminism" is this [old video but this guy is great] It's little jabs, meaningless banter to try to demean men and elevate themselves in the most trivial of matters because "Men used to rule the world but now we want to! Equality isn't good enough! Male tears!", while ignoring real issues for women around the world, those who have it way worse. Feminists don't campaign to solve gender inequality in the Middle East or Africa at large, they scream about male scientists wearing Hawaiian shirts with gun-babes on them. They're too afraid to do the real work the Suffragettes did. The real work black and gay rights advocates did 50 years ago. They're seeking to make gender an issue where it doesn't have to be one, and screaming at those who disagree over the internet. I'm all for equality (I mean duh holy shit) but how do you not see the issue with modern feminism's antics? 10% of the world (you) is blind to the other 70% who are on your side (us) but laughing/cringing/head-desking at your antics, and the other 20% of bigots and assholes are just having their views reenforced. Just like turbo-liberals and turbo-conservatives, you're taking your movement backwards. /Previous iterations of Feminism/ wanted to fix these issues. Egalitarians want to fix these issues. /Modern Feminism/ does not. There's a reason less and less people identify as feminists these days[/QUOTE] Well, I'm a feminist, and I'm guessing I live in the modern age. Does that make me a modern feminist? Because I can tell you I care about women in underdeveloped countries AND about a bunch of issues relating to representation (though not specifically the babe shirt thingy) that, I imagine, you'd call 'trivial'. Because as it so happens, humans are capable of caring about more than one thing at once

I don't think radical feminism is as big of an issue as some people say it is but to act like it's a total non-issue is just as bad. It's getting to the point where they have enough attention and influence to start affecting the image of feminism and causing people to get the wrong idea of what it's all about, which is bad no matter who you are.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52057707]Well, I'm a feminist, and I'm guessing I live in the modern age. Does that make me a modern feminist? Because I can tell you I care about women in underdeveloped countries AND about a bunch of issues relating to representation (though not specifically the babe shirt thingy) that, I imagine, you'd call 'trivial'. Because as it so happens, humans are capable of caring about more than one thing at once[/QUOTE] While I whole heartedly agree with what you're saying, it's possible to care about more than one thing at once, Generally, the notion that the people are starting to see come out of colleges, universities, any kind of class that is pertaining to feminism, doesn't talk about these things, in fact, like the video in the OP suggested, embraces them. Telling whole class rooms of kids that it's okay for certain cultures to force their women to where burka's, etc, is not an issue of representation, or misrepresentation of modern feminism for that matter. It's a pretty blatant change in direction from what the original suffragettes were fighting for. While some may call that video anecdotal, I call it a reality of not just one, but multiple schools around western civilization that is teaching misinformation and even bigotry, claiming to fight against bigotry. Maybe that can explain why people on the internet are getting caught up in discussion and calling bullshit like that out when they see it. Because it does exist in some form and is an aggressive ideology that only serves regression.

[QUOTE=patq911;52056410]At the end she said that public schools have liberal leanings, I know this is easy to criticize, but that's anecdotal. In my high school I thought I may have been one of the few liberal people. Nearly everyone else that talked (selection bias I know) said boilerplate conservative points. Even one of my teachers just HAD to include that he didn't believe in evolution, but that he will teach it anyway. (he did a good job though). see anecdotes are fact guys.[/QUOTE] At least your music teacher didn't attempt to convert you to his own sect of theistic satanism.

It's ironic whenever someone says "I know that not all liberals/not all conservatives" but at the same time assume that most or all modern feminists are wacky SJW's.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52057707]Well, I'm a feminist, and I'm guessing I live in the modern age. Does that make me a modern feminist? Because I can tell you I care about women in underdeveloped countries AND about a bunch of issues relating to representation (though not specifically the babe shirt thingy) that, I imagine, you'd call 'trivial'. Because as it so happens, humans are capable of caring about more than one thing at once[/QUOTE]They also neglect that there is feminist activism going on in countries like china, etc. where things are much worse for women then here. It's not like first world women are just asking for representation while women in third world countries are completely left unaccounted for. You also have to think of how much influence you really have. Aside from donations, you really can't do much to help women in places like china, middle east, etc. because their governments and/or culture actively repress feminist movements, and you don't live there either. Your influence is effectively nil, whereas in the country you live in you do actually have influence. [sp]and, you could get imperialist and say we should demand these foreign countries change. but I think that that's a really really bad idea that will lead to a lot of death. Globalism is probably the optimal answer to this[/sp] [QUOTE=mchapra;52057639]my favorite meme is the "modern feminism" meme like a complicated ideology with different interpretations such as feminism has one set type and is neatly divided up into eras for you to strawman or put up on a pedastal, like people are not infinitely complex to believe such concepts in a granular scale. It just screams of how little someone understands of people. [editline]4th April 2017[/editline] it's the pseudo intellectual variant of the "le wrong generation" meme[/QUOTE] It's also just a downright ignorant lie that previous generations of feminism cared more about actually resolving the problems that lead to men's issues than current feminism. Second wave feminism was wrought with bigotry as well. People used this as propaganda at the time too, "Look, these braindead bigots wrote and spread a manifesto calling for the destruction of men. How can people say this group supports equality? Come, sit on my armchair with me and espouse true equality."

[QUOTE=Crumpet;52057691]You need to learn that a vocal minority does not represent the majority[/QUOTE] i really never have understood how this is meant to persuade people. show that they are the minority, don't tell. these shitheads are actively ruining the name of the ideology to the public at large and all people seem to have to defend it when that is brought up is "those people don't represent it and you're a fucking moron if you think it does". maybe it is self-evident to you that there is much more to feminism than what the vocal minority has to say but that is likely because you've spent time in those circles. a lot of people haven't, and their only knowing exposure to the ideology has been from that vocal minority and i wouldn't blame them for not wanting to look deeper into it because of that. being condescending and calling people morons when they make assumptions based on the vocal minority only serves to get people who already agree with you to agree with you more, people who disagree with you to disagree with you more, and make you look toxic to people who are on the fence. in short, show, don't tell

imagine actually thinking just because there aren't child brides in the United States that there isn't discrimination against women here

[QUOTE=Flameon;52060648]imagine actually thinking just because there aren't child brides in the United States that there isn't discrimination against women here[/QUOTE] Imagine thinking that that is totality of the thought behind the statement.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;52058480]It's ironic whenever someone says "I know that not all liberals/not all conservatives" but at the same time assume that most or all modern feminists are wacky SJW's.[/QUOTE] when you go to uni here in the states the line gets muddy so many wacky sjw's who have no semblance of any kind of empathy whatsoever whom all feel as if they need to fit in somewhere rather than try to turn people to their side they'll opt to shout and scream and ignore, rather than present any kind of logical thinking and it really annoys me as a person who [I]actually[/I] supports equality and as someone who wants to convince people to see why true feminism(not this "STOP MANSPREADING, AND MANSPLAInINg" bullshit) is only a good thing honestly, being here, if the youth are the future, then we have no future, only a drifting away of reasonable people not caring anymore, and crazies shouting everywhere hindering their own movement even taking a genders studies course, there was no discourse, and i could visibly see men in the room being uncomfortable, not because of anything they did or what they said men did, but because the subtle talk of how "there are 3 types of men, a dick, a secret dick who is a "southern gentleman" as they put it, and a guy who [I]thinks[/I] he's helping but really is not" leaving people to sit there and think "am I just that third guy? should i not help?" when, no absolutely they are not and it's the shittiest thing.

I had a GE class called "Men and Women in Society," and half the class jokingly called it "How Men Oppress Women in Society" because that was the entire focus of the class.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52058861]i really never have understood how this is meant to persuade people. show that they are the minority, don't tell. these shitheads are actively ruining the name of the ideology to the public at large and all people seem to have to defend it when that is brought up is "those people don't represent it and you're a fucking moron if you think it does". maybe it is self-evident to you that there is much more to feminism than what the vocal minority has to say but that is likely because you've spent time in those circles. a lot of people haven't, and their only knowing exposure to the ideology has been from that vocal minority and i wouldn't blame them for not wanting to look deeper into it because of that. being condescending and calling people morons when they make assumptions based on the vocal minority only serves to get people who already agree with you to agree with you more, people who disagree with you to disagree with you more, and make you look toxic to people who are on the fence. in short, show, don't tell[/QUOTE] The problem is that it's pretty blatantly obvious that they're a vocal minority to most people. But when people [I]actively seek them out[/I] for entertainment and outrage, like they do on /r/TumblrInAction and such, their toxic anti-feminist message gets thrown through a megaphone and blared out to people in a way that normal feminism doesn't. It's real hard in the modern day to show how prevalent moderates are. Extremes get the microphone, every time, and everyone else is sitting in the middle wondering who gave the idiot the mic. It's not partisan, it's not anything like that - everyone does this nowadays. To give a political example, since that's what I'm familiar with, the vast majority of Republican voters are pretty damn moderate people - and yet the loudest, most extreme possible candidate got the victory in their primaries and in the general. Why? Because he got the most attention. Extremes get attention, moderates do not. If you were in an economics class learning about supply-side economics and someone started screaming that Reagan is a devil man and we should execute the neoliberals and start a revolution, people would be staring at the spectacle of idiocy. But if someone more reasonable comes in and says "yeah, well, there are problems with supply-side economics, we should look at what those problems are and how they manifested in society, we need to be calm and understand these ideas," do you really think people are going to stop paying attention to the manic screaming person? People like spectacle, and outrage is spectacle. Vocal extremes get attention because they're spectacle. The problem is that people start seeing more and more of these extremes and start assuming that everyone between themselves and that extreme are the same. When people start assuming that feminism is entirely about killing all men and making women better than men, they're doing this - taking the extreme minority and then slamming literally everyone else who has moderate opinions into the same box as the most extreme. That's not how it works - and moderates [I]do[/I] criticize these extremes, they're just not a spectacle to enjoy and get outraged by. So nobody pays attention to them. [editline]4th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Flameon;52060648]imagine actually thinking just because there aren't child brides in the United States that there isn't discrimination against women here[/QUOTE] This is a [I]perfect[/I] example of what I mean, from the other side. Thinking child brides are a good thing is an unbelievably extreme opinion. And yet you've generalized everyone who might oppose what you think by throwing them into the same group as that extreme opinion. People need to sit down with each other, actually learn what their opinions are, and then talk to them about those opinions instead of shoehorning everyone into some varied category of extremist that they don't fit in. Labeling is not helpful to actual discussion, because opinions can be way more nuanced than a label can cover. The need to ID tag and label every aspect of people's life isn't necessarily accurate - it's just good for population studies and targeted advertising. When it comes to a one-on-one discussion, get rid of the labels and don't assume people's opinions based on what you assume their labels are.

I don't think it's so much that extremes get the microphone. It's that extremes are the only ones who actually have visible effects. What policy change or public effect have moderate feminists caused recently? I would be tempted to point to that big women's march, but their stated goals were fairly extreme on one end, and vaguely pointless on the other end.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52060911]I don't think it's so much that extremes get the microphone. It's that extremes are the only ones who actually have visible effects. What policy change or public effect have moderate feminists caused recently? I would be tempted to point to that big women's march, but their stated goals were fairly extreme on one end, and vaguely pointless on the other end.[/QUOTE] Extreme feminists haven't killed all men. Moderate feminists have removed stigmas of women in non-gender-conformist jobs. Unless you think that women being able to work as scientists or engineers or anything other than secretaries is "extreme feminism," that opinion is such a joke.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;52060949]Extreme feminists haven't killed all men. Moderate feminists have removed stigmas of women in non-gender-conformist jobs. Unless you think that women being able to work as scientists or engineers or anything other than secretaries is "extreme feminism," that opinion is such a joke.[/QUOTE] I'm talking about now, the society we live in at the moment. We see real effects of the so called "extremists" all the time. They get people banned from campuses, they've taken over entire fields of study, they show up in things politicians say (I mean, the wage gap is still the go-to example of active sexist inequality), celebrities parrot their words, etc. Their message is front and center in many aspects of life, all the way to the top echelon of US leaders. Who are the moderates? Where are they distinguishing themselves from the extremists and working on their own goals?

Talking about the video that is really stupid that you have to take ethnic/gender studies units not related to your course to graduate at her university. It already takes a fuckton of time to make your name in an industry that requires a university degree and that's not counting the years of study it takes to get the degree. Sure you can think of University as this kind of center for cultural enrichment and understanding but making it mandatory is taking it too far, you go to University most of the time to get a degree so you can work in a industry you're interested in. Even if those units were easy throw-away classes it's still a waste of time, especially if they're easy because nobody will learn anything that sticks with them. It's like if when I did my apprenticeship at TAFE (Polytechnic College) for oil/gas fitter I had to also learn about inequality issues, sure they're a terrible part of the human condition but they're not relevant to why I am here.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52056401]"I think that women are doing much better men currently." Yeah I kinda had to stop 1 minute after that because it's basically self-anecdotal "i said something dumb so dumb feminists called me dumb so i'm not dumb they're dumb"[/QUOTE] What did she say that was dumb? Women have limitless support programs and advantages purely for being a woman. They win in almost every single family court case. Sexism taught us that women were weak and inferior and this is now seen as an outdated and ridiculous point of view, but the same views we had regarding men from those times are still applied today. Men are still seen as disposable, women are inherently regarded as better parents than men. I'm not saying that sexism doesn't exist against women anymore but you have to be extremely naive and ignorant to think that the pendulum hasn't swung completely in the opposite direction now.

[QUOTE=Jack32;52061341]What did she say that was dumb? Women have limitless support programs and advantages purely for being a woman. They win in almost every single family court cases. Sexism taught us that women were weak and inferior and this is now seen as an outdated and ridiculous point of view, but the same views we had regarding men from those times are still applied today. Men are still seen as disposable, women are inherently regarded as better parents than men. I'm not saying that sexism doesn't exist against women anymore but you have to be extremely naive and ignorant to think that the pendulum hasn't swung completely in the opposite direction now.[/QUOTE] Don't forget that our public school systems are giving better results to women, women are graduating university at a higher rate, and women are starting to out-make men because of this better education ([URL]http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/apr/09/genevieve-wood/what-pay-gap-young-women-out-earn-men-cities-gop-p/[/URL]).

[QUOTE=Berman Slick;52061393]You literally just agreed with my point. They're ruining the cause for everyone else lol and now less and less people want to be associated with them because they're regressive towards their own cause like BLM or the "alt-right" [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1559226&p=52057108&viewfull=1#post52057108"]also [/URL][IMG]https://i.gyazo.com/c8a92fe60f8e3210cf71c70a9f2e04db.png[/IMG] [editline]4th April 2017[/editline] guess I'm right thanks facepunch [editline]4th April 2017[/editline] {calling all the revenge-boxes}[/QUOTE] Well I was gonna come back, apologise for being snarky and attempt to have some sort of real discussion but you're clearly not interested in changing your opinion. You're making a ridiculous sweeping generalisation. Who is they? Can you give me some real stats that backup your assertion that they make up a large amount of whoever it is you're talking about? Don't pull me a couple YouTube vids of some arseholes masquerading as feminists - that's not proving anything other than your ability to make bad assumptions. I think you misunderstood me too. The minority doesn't ruin it for me or any number of people who've spoken up in this thread, really I was talking about you and people with similar opinions. Im open though. Show me what you got.

Sure thing. I'll PM you when I get the chance.

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;52057707]Well, I'm a feminist, and I'm guessing I live in the modern age. Does that make me a modern feminist? Because I can tell you I care about women in underdeveloped countries AND about a bunch of issues relating to representation (though not specifically the babe shirt thingy) that, I imagine, you'd call 'trivial'. Because as it so happens, humans are capable of caring about more than one thing at once[/QUOTE] Women in the developed world get to deal with quite a large amount of bullshit, but it's several orders of magnitude less bullshit than women in the developing world have to deal with. Saying that an American woman's glass ceiling problems deserve the same kind of attention as things like the female genocide in China and India is disingenuous as hell. You can't care about two things at once if the things don't deserve the same amount of care. I fucking wish I was in a first world woman's shoes, I earn several times less than minimum wage in America, and I'm a white educated cisgendered straight guy, I can't and won't care about the wage gap, the glass ceiling and the underrepresentation of women in certain fields.

I had a class called "marriage and family" studies where the whole time our obnoxious teacher would complain about how marriage is slavery and monogamy is a social construct, then she got fired about 2 years later for sleeping with a student. Glad I got that single social studies core class i needed because that was a shit show of over opinionated people just circle jerking with the teacher

Is it wrong to think that both sexes are oppressed (though I think that word is far too harsh) in different ways in Western society? Why do people have such a fixation on playing for one team over another instead of solving both sides problems?

[QUOTE=FeartheMango;52062065]Is it wrong to think that both sexes are oppressed (though I think that word is far too harsh) in different ways in Western society? Why do people have such a fixation on playing for one team over another instead of solving both sides problems?[/QUOTE] Feminism does acknowledge this. It's what "toxic masculinity" is. Their conception goes along the lines of saying "patriarchy includes gender norms for men as being unemotional, violent, etc. that wind up being harmful to men themselves." While there isn't really any reasonable group advocating directly for resolving men's issues right now, feminists do at the very least indirectly aim to resolve those issues since feminists nowadays are typically against gender norms.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52062098]Feminism does acknowledge this. It's what "toxic masculinity" is. Their conception goes along the lines of saying "patriarchy includes gender norms for men as being unemotional, violent, etc. that wind up being harmful to men themselves." While there isn't really any reasonable group advocating directly for resolving men's issues right now, feminists do at the very least indirectly aim to resolve those issues since feminists nowadays are typically against gender norms.[/QUOTE] And the conceptual opposite of "toxic masculinity" for women is "internalized misogyny". See the obvious double standard? Can you fathom why this makes men feel disenfranchised?