Deus Ex: Manking Divided - The Mechnical Apartheid - General

[QUOTE=damnatus;50398003]as much as I like the atmosphere and aesthetics of DX:HR I can't stop thinking that none of that "bionic limbs have a hidden kill switch" would fly in real life, like, the government should prevent that kind of shit it works in deus ex because [sp]the loominatys are behind everything and their plans are too complicated for you to understand[/sp][/QUOTE] tbh a automatic kill switch is something the united states government would do. We elected Reagan and Bush, coming dangerously close to Trump, wrapped ourselves in Vietnam and are close to raping the Middle East a third time for more oil. Shit our own food pyramid the government puts out is making people obese and our media warping our perception of reality. With the possibility of prosthetic limbs and augmentations in the our near future who's to say we won't try that shit? Government isn't infallible.

[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;50399158]I seriously doubt every person with a prosthetic limb will have some 'order 66' style device synced to their brain, thats just retarded.[/QUOTE] i think hes talking about the general animosity towards augmented people, not the killswitch shit i wouldnt put it past the post modern social climate to actually preach dumb shit like "playing god" when and if augments become common place and readily available somewhere along this century.

[QUOTE=RikohZX;50399052][sp]It happened before you even go out to Panchea in the first place, it's why Adam heads there to stop it. The endings don't dissuade that it happened, merely choosing to reveal the truth or hide it in varying methods with the 'best choice' being to just destroy Panchea, kill everyone there to bury this part of the conspiracies, and let the world find its own answers.[/sp] Mankind Divided doesn't choose any of these endings and there's no save transfer system, but the first trailer showed [sp]the ruins of Panchea and Adam being recovered[/sp] so it's implied the [sp]destruction[/sp] ending happened irregardless of any choice made - or was the main one they continued from anyway.[/QUOTE] They've stated that in a way, all endings are true. The way Mary DeMarle the narrative director explained it was regardless of your choice, the message you sent out was lost in a sea of crackpot theories and finger pointing to the point where its intended effects wouldn't matter. "You can't change the world at the press of a button." People would already come to their own conclusions and given the world was already having a heated discussion regarding "natch vs aug" the Panchaea event pushed it heavily in favour of anti-augmentation. Thus the apartheid.

[QUOTE=spekter;50399941]They've stated that in a way, all endings are true. The way Mary DeMarle the narrative director explained it was regardless of your choice, the message you sent out was lost in a sea of crackpot theories and finger pointing to the point where its intended effects wouldn't matter. "You can't change the world at the press of a button." [/QUOTE] So it's like how Invisible War tied all of the original Deus Ex endings together into a total mess, except that this time it's not flat out retarded and actually makes some sense ? They really wrote themselves into a corner at end of Human Revolution if "the ending actually doesn't mean anything" was the best they could come up as a way to continuing the story.

[QUOTE=FpShepard;50400065]So it's like how Invisible War tied all of the original Deus Ex endings together into a total mess, except that this time it's not flat out retarded and actually makes some sense ?[/QUOTE] It's half them making the best of a sketchy ending, half them making fun of themselves for even constructing that ending. I would still point out however that development got rocky about half way through HR which is when the content cutting occurred thus they had to rush up a conclusion without putting much foresight in.

Yeah, the endgame and the outsourced boss fights (which they could only 'patch' in the Director's Cut by adding extra rooms to hack into for turrets incase you're playing non-lethal) show a metric fuckton of rushed game design.

Honestly I think this whole mechanical apartheid idea might have been a poor one. Not because it's controversial, but in a way because it's controversial. I'm just pretty damn sure it's going to end up being the most black and white thing ever. Apartheid = bad. You can argue that's just true, apartheid is just bad, but I think that'd make for a pretty uninteresting scenario. Especially for a game so fixated on choices. And even if they wanted to show their apartheid in at least a somewhat neutral light, they wouldn't risk the insane backlash that might bring.

[QUOTE=elowin;50400229]Honestly I think this whole mechanical apartheid idea might have been a really poor one. Not because it's controversial, or, well, in a way because it's controversial. I'm just pretty damn sure it's going to end up being the most black and white thing ever. Apartheid = bad. And while you can argue that that's just the truth, apartheid is just bad, that still makes for a somewhat uninteresting scenario for a game so fixated on choice. And even if they wanted to try and show their apartheid in an at least somewhat neutral light, they wouldn't risk the insane backlash that might bring.[/QUOTE] Given that we were shown both sides of the argument in snippets during HR I severly doubt it's going to be underhanded. The entire series is based around moral ambiguity and choice, why would they suddenly stop to show this in such a clean fashion? Infact they outright said in panels that side quests in this game all relate back into the main theme and will help shape your opinion of the situation rather than just be unrelated diversions. That's the whole point, to throw you in the middle of it and force you to decide on what you think is right. [QUOTE=RikohZX;50400179]Yeah, the endgame and the outsourced boss fights (which they could only 'patch' in the Director's Cut by adding extra rooms to hack into for turrets incase you're playing non-lethal) show a metric fuckton of rushed game design.[/QUOTE] That and the only way to know the backstory for the bosses was through Icarus Effect. Which IMO is still the biggest shame because Namir is a fucking great villain. The book laid his cards on the table and presented him as a man with a lot of complex decisions to be made not some generic villain.

[QUOTE=RocketRacer;50396060]This trailer is incredible. I think the biggest thing that makes it actually believable is that it [I]can[/I] happen in a not too distant future, if you think about it.[/QUOTE] That the human body rejects foreign objects/replacements happens in real life yeah but there are already methods that can prevent this from happening so unless you would get a very cheap augmentation it would not be a issue.

[QUOTE=spekter;50400262]Given that we were shown both sides of the argument in snippets during HR I severly doubt it's going to be underhanded. The entire series is based around moral ambiguity and choice, why would they suddenly stop to show this in such a clean fashion? Infact they outright said in panels that side quests in this game all relate back into the main theme and will help shape your opinion of the situation rather than just be unrelated diversions. That's the whole point, to throw you in the middle of it and force you to decide on what you think is right[/QUOTE] Are you going to support apartheid?

[QUOTE=elowin;50400368]Are you going to support apartheid?[/QUOTE] It's Deus Ex, it's not going to be as simple as "augs good normals bad" For all you or I know the pro-aug side of the fence could be manipulated into doing the Illuminati's bidding. They could even be willingly working with the Illuminati. Wait until the game is actually out before instantly dismissing the narrative and the main themes.

[QUOTE=spekter;50400428]It's Deus Ex, it's not going to be as simple as "augs good normals bad" For all you or I know the pro-aug side of the fence could be manipulated into doing the Illuminati's bidding. They could even be willingly working with the Illuminati. Wait until the game is actually out before instantly dismissing the narrative and the main themes.[/QUOTE] I'm not dismissing it, I'm voicing a concern. You're quite quick to say I shouldn't criticize the idea before it's out, but by that very same logic you also should not praise it, or even discuss it at all. It's not out yet, you don't actually know anything. It's all just speculation at this point, both the positive and the negative.

Considering the primary (probably early game) antagonist group shown throughout the trailers are augs who don't give a shit who gets caught up in their attacks? Yeah, it's not going to be simple.

[QUOTE=elowin;50400465]I'm not dismissing it, I'm voicing a concern. You're quite quick to say I shouldn't criticize the idea before it's out, but by that very same logic you also should not praise it, or even discuss it at all. It's not out yet, you don't actually know anything. It's all just speculation at this point, both the positive and the negative.[/QUOTE] You're implying it's going to be black and white, despite Human Revolution serving as evidence that they wouldn't simplify the narrative in that way. HR provided a ton of pros and cons to augmentation and all of that will fit into Mankind Divided regarding how they will portray this whole scenario. Therefore I'm wondering if you've played HR, how are you coming to a conclusion that they'll just be biased?

Honestly the biggest con to me in terms of storytelling for HR was mentioned before, is that antagonist motivations were mainly left to Icarus Effect. Sure, you find out the Illuminati think that Augs are advancing too fast and want to control and contain them, [sp]up until Darrows throws a wrench into that plan by trying to get Augs banned worldwide because of sheer jealousy at being unable to use his own creations,[/sp] but the actual recurring antagonists you meet just sort of do their job and you kill their faces besides that one who'd [sp]become the final boss because she didn't want to be killed for becoming useless to the Illuminati.[/sp] And that's not getting into Belltower, who eventually serve the role of recurring mooks and do a lot of immoral, insidiously evil things because they're like watchdogs for the conspiracies, yet don't actually get much explanation beyond the origins and formations of the PMC group. I get that it was Jensen's perspective, and a good deal of his adventure is about revenge as well as finding out the answers, but at times it basically felt like I was stealthing past or killing my way through dudes because.. because, and there's no real answer or problems that arise from it. Even the original Deus Ex wanted you to at least vaguely hesitate in slaughtering UNATCO soldiers post-reveal out of principle, but Belltower are just dudes doing PMC work with some really scummy sections here and there [sp]like the guys working on the Hyron Project who have to be told to not rape the subjects because it could cause undesirable psychiatric damage to said disposable test subjects.[/sp]

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;50398969]Things like the NSA exists[/QUOTE] not like the NSA can blow up your phone in your pocket, that's physically impossible

[QUOTE=RikohZX;50400539]Belltower[/QUOTE] Remember national millitaries no longer really exist in the deus ex world, as such people who want to protect and serve in a millitary capacity would have to join PMC's such as Belltower. [sp]Even though the Organistation is corrupt on many levels, it's highly likely that the average rank and file is not (though there will be instances where there was assholes), instead it's more likely they are sold a bunch of lies so they think they are doing the right thing and the missing link DLC hints directly to this notion. One of the guards tells a civilian that Jensen is a terrorist and there's no reason as to why he could not actually believe that. Futhermore the Talon AD questline hints that its not so clear cut with the red spec ops guys morality either[/sp] It depends how you view the world i guess.

[QUOTE=RikohZX;50400539]Honestly the biggest con to me in terms of storytelling for HR was mentioned before, is that antagonist motivations were mainly left to Icarus Effect. Sure, you find out the Illuminati think that Augs are advancing too fast and want to control and contain them, [sp]up until Darrows throws a wrench into that plan by trying to get Augs banned worldwide because of sheer jealousy at being unable to use his own creations,[/sp] but the actual recurring antagonists you meet just sort of do their job and you kill their faces besides that one who'd [sp]become the final boss because she didn't want to be killed for becoming useless to the Illuminati.[/sp] And that's not getting into Belltower, who eventually serve the role of recurring mooks and do a lot of immoral, insidiously evil things because they're like watchdogs for the conspiracies, yet don't actually get much explanation beyond the origins and formations of the PMC group. I get that it was Jensen's perspective, and a good deal of his adventure is about revenge as well as finding out the answers, but at times it basically felt like I was stealthing past or killing my way through dudes because.. because, and there's no real answer or problems that arise from it. Even the original Deus Ex wanted you to at least vaguely hesitate in slaughtering UNATCO soldiers post-reveal out of principle, but Belltower are just dudes doing PMC work with some really scummy sections here and there [sp]like the guys working on the Hyron Project who have to be told to not rape the subjects because it could cause undesirable psychiatric damage to said disposable test subjects.[/sp][/QUOTE] Darrow might have jealous, but one could argue that it was possibly the only way he saw to expose how deep the Illuminati's control went.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50399142]It's also worth pointing out that not every Augmented person was affected, Jensen primarily but you also have Pritchard, Malik, Sarif, Zhao. There's also a random civilian in Sarifs 'safe' area at Panchea with an augmented arm as well (iirc i may be wrong on that one, but if im not there's a high probabilty of that person being a sarif employee). It could have been that Sarif Employees were 'fixed' in house but Pritchard himself states he's heading to a limb clinic to get checked out so i doubt thats the case.[/QUOTE] People only went nuts if they got the 'emergency update', which many people did. If an augmented person didn't get the upgrade then they just suffered the annoying glitches Jensen gets a few times during the game. There were probably a lot of people who were hoping the glitches would stop on their own, or waiting to see if the fix actually worked before getting it done themselves.

[QUOTE=damnatus;50398003]as much as I like the atmosphere and aesthetics of DX:HR I can't stop thinking that none of that "bionic limbs have a hidden kill switch" would fly in real life, like, the government should prevent that kind of shit[/QUOTE]you're putting way too much faith in governments maybe not a kill switch, that's very very extreme, but they absolutely would slip something in there if they could get away with it. maybe some equivalent of spyware - that's something that's not very difficult to justify with "security and freedom"

[QUOTE=Joazzz;50402709]you're putting way too much faith in governments maybe not a kill switch, that's very very extreme, but they absolutely would slip something in there if they could get away with it. maybe some equivalent of spyware - that's something that's not very difficult to justify with "security and freedom"[/QUOTE] governments wouldn't need to slip anything in, just subpoena the manufacturers for the information they'd already be collecting

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;50402553]People only went nuts if they got the 'emergency update', which many people did. If an augmented person didn't get the upgrade then they just suffered the annoying glitches Jensen gets a few times during the game. There were probably a lot of people who were hoping the glitches would stop on their own, or waiting to see if the fix actually worked before getting it done themselves.[/QUOTE] Admitably that is the probable answer, but the interesting caveat to that is Pritchard. Given what we are shown and told during the course of the game and given Pritchards chartecter the logical conclusion is that he would have got the update, he openly states it. IMO though I feel its just an oversight, there's onlythat 1 line of dalogue where he says he's gots augs and thats easy to miss / forget or not pay attention too because it's also the conversation that tells you to go get the upgrade at a limb clinic.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50402815]Admitably that is the probable answer, but the interesting caveat to that is Pritchard. Given what we are shown and told during the course of the game and given Pritchards chartecter the logical conclusion is that he would have got the update. IMO though I feel its just an oversight, there's only 1 line of dalogue that says he's gots augs and thats easy to miss / forget or not pay attention too.[/QUOTE] Baring in mind through the game he ends up learning he can't trust his own Boss. He said he would run tests before actually getting the update.

[QUOTE=spekter;50402827]Baring in mind through the game he ends up learning he can't trust his own Boss. He said he would run tests before actually getting the update.[/QUOTE] True, but if he felt something was off I feel he'd have told Jensen at the Omega Ranch (though it'd have been to late to do anything by then obviously), there was a mutual respect and trust between the two by that point, dare i say it maybe Pritchard even grew to like Jensen a little.

[QUOTE=spekter;50400475]You're implying it's going to be black and white, despite Human Revolution serving as evidence that they wouldn't simplify the narrative in that way. HR provided a ton of pros and cons to augmentation and all of that will fit into Mankind Divided regarding how they will portray this whole scenario. Therefore I'm wondering if you've played HR, how are you coming to a conclusion that they'll just be biased?[/QUOTE] Did it though? Out of the two factions that want to restrict augmentations, [sp]one of them is basically a man-baby, and the other is the Illuminati[/sp]. While Sarif is a pathological liar, it always felt to me that the game favored him from the start, or at least his ideology if not the person himself. And again, I have to reiterate that this time around the anti-aug side is literally, straight up apartheid. [i]Apartheid[/i]. Showing that in a positive light would be akin to a game showing Hitler in a positive light. Even if someone [i]did[/i] want to make that game, it would never fly with any executive. While I felt the first game leaned towards Sarif's side, at least the opposing side wasn't supporting apartheid. Hell, if not for how negatively the game portrayed that side, regulating cybernetics would be a completely reasonable goal. Just too bad the side that wants to do that are huge shits in basically every way.

[QUOTE=elowin;50402860]Did it though? Out of the two factions that want to restrict augmentations, [/sp]one of them is basically a man-baby, and the other is the Illuminati[/sp]. While Sarif is a pathological liar, it always felt to me that the game favored him from the start, or at least his ideology if not the person himself. And again, I have to reiterate that this time around the anti-aug side is literally, straight up apartheid. [I]Apartheid[/I]. Showing that in a positive light would be akin to a game showing Hitler in a positive light. Even if someone [I]did[/I] want to make that game, it would never fly with any executive. While I felt the first game leaned towards Sarif's side, at least the opposing side wasn't supporting apartheid. Hell, if not for how negatively the game portrayed that side, regulating cybernetics would be a completely reasonable goal. Just too bad the side that wants to do that are huge shits in basically every way.[/QUOTE] [sp] The first game is not on Sarifs side though, Jensen just works for him so he is subjected to more Pro Aug propaganda than Anti Aug, if you dig up the information in game you'll realise there is alot of counter aug aguments going on and that Sarif is actually a bit of selfish cunt (espeically using Jensen as a test subject, save the typon first not the hostages ect ect), he just happens to be a really good speaker with a cool voice and the added bonus of not being a politician, in a sense he's somewhat like Darrow [/sp]

Hey guys, are the guys behind cyberpunk 2027 the same guys who did The Witcher? So, that means it will a huuuuuuge RPG with a lot of lore and characters? Damn, I might only upgrade or buy a new PC just because of it.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;50402987]Hey guys, are the guys behind cyberpunk 2027 the same guys who did The Witcher? So, that means it will a huuuuuuge RPG with a lot of lore and characters? Damn, I might only upgrade or buy a new PC just because of it.[/QUOTE] While not relevant to the thread, yes 2077 is made by the Witcher guys. Eidos, the team making Deus Ex, made the recent Tomb Raider games.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;50402944][sp] The first game is not on Sarifs side though, Jensen just works for him so he is subjected to more Pro Aug propaganda than Anti Aug, if you dig up the information in game you'll realise that Sarif is actually a bit of selfish cunt (espeically using Jensen as a test subject, save the typon first not the hostages ect ect), he just happens to be a really good speaker with a cool voice and the added bonus of not being a politician, in a sense he's somewhat like Darrow [/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]I'm fully aware of that, I even said in my post that he's a pathological liar. You don't really have to dig at all to find that out. Hell, his ending is lying.[/sp] Like I said, I think the game favors his ideology, if not the man himself. [editline]27th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Magikoopa24;50403036]While not relevant to the thread, yes 2077 is made by the Witcher guys. Eidos, the team making Deus Ex, made the recent Tomb Raider games.[/QUOTE] Co-developed. They just helped with them, the main developer was Crystal Dynamics. Eidos Montreal made Human Revolution and Thi4f

[QUOTE=elowin;50403092][sp]I'm fully aware of that, I even said in my post that he's a pathological liar. You don't really have to dig at all to find that out. Hell, his ending is lying.[/sp] Like I said, I think the game favors his ideology, if not the man himself. [/QUOTE] You're easily exposed to the pro argument because society celebrates it at that time. The whole point is if you dig and listen there's plenty of counter-argument going on it's just suppressed.