[QUOTE=Zyler;42464185]I appreciate how progressive you are on this issue, but the way we move forward is by encouraging discussion of the issue and getting people involved, not shying away from the topic.[/QUOTE]
I would say that people like Thunderfoot are encouraging victims to completely "shy away"...
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464185]Why can't you do both? If open discussion is what leads to us finding a resolution to the issue of rape within our culture, why can't we learn from the victims of rape instead of beating around the bush for no purpose whatsoever.[/QUOTE]
What are we to learn? They were raped because a rapist decided to rape them. You don't fix anything by making women's lives revolve around not accommodating rapists.
It's only natural for humans to care for their personal safety. What else are you going to tell women that isn't already common sense and isn't just a result of a rapist choosing to rape?
[QUOTE=gokiyono;42464189]But wouldn't that just leave that person vulnerable for the next attack?[/QUOTE]
I think it's foolish and ignorant to think that women aren't taking common-sense, general-level precautions already. Ask all the women that you know, ask them if they don't feel unsafe outside, if they don't put their car keys in between their knuckles to use as a makeshift weapon "just in case", etc.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464208]I would say that people like Thunderfoot are encouraging victims to completely "shy away"...[/QUOTE]
He really isn't, by discussing the issue he's encouraging people to stand up for what they believe in whether or not they agree with him. He is also not playing the blame game himself and is instead arguing against the idea that parents are completely responsible for rape existing in the world by not teaching their children not to rape hard enough, which is only going to cause problems in the long run as it completely obfuscates and ignores the main societal issues that need to be addressed.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464224]He is also not playing the blame game himself and is instead arguing against the idea that parents are completely responsible for rape existing in the world by not teaching their children not to rape hard enough[/QUOTE]
Who's even saying that? That's the first time I hear of that idea. It sounds like it came from a bloody strawman.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464224]He really isn't, by discussing the issue he's encouraging people to stand up for what they believe in whether or not they agree with him. He is also not playing the blame game himself and is instead arguing against the idea that parents are completely responsible for rape existing in the world by not teaching their children not to rape hard enough, which is only going to cause problems in the long run as it completely obfuscates and ignores the main societal issues that need to be addressed.[/QUOTE]
which are?
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;42464210]What are we to learn? They were raped because a rapist decided to rape them. You don't fix anything by making women's lives revolve around not accommodating rapists.
It's only natural for humans to care for their personal safety. What else are you going to tell women that isn't already common sense and isn't just a result of a rapist choosing to rape?[/QUOTE]
It's the same exact situation with just telling children not to commit rape, and yet they're still growing up and doing it. Just because something is repeated constantly throughout our lives doesn't mean we should completely stop saying it. We'll tell them we're telling them, we'll tell them and we'll tell them that we've told them and in doing so we will cause them to discuss it amongst themselves until it reaches the furtherest corners of the globe and it becomes such a well understood thing that the rates of things like date rape go down. That's how society works.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464219]I think it's foolish and ignorant to think that women aren't taking common-sense, general-level precautions already. Ask all the women that you know, ask them if they don't feel unsafe outside, if they don't put their car keys in between their knuckles to use as a makeshift weapon "just in case", etc.[/QUOTE]
Disregard my post
I didn't mean to word it like that
I live a place where it isn't comfortable to be out after dark
So the answer I would get from women would most likely be the same as I would get from men.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;42464237]which are?[/QUOTE]
That rape is bad and should be stopped obviously. Or are you not realising the fact that we're arguing for the same thing?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464236]Who's even saying that? That's the first time I hear of that idea. It sounds like it came from a bloody strawman.[/QUOTE]
It's the premise of his first video, of which this is a response-to-a-response-to.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0GcHM0s4o[/url]
[video=youtube;1T0GcHM0s4o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0GcHM0s4o[/video]
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464250]That rape is bad and should be stopped obviously. Or are you not realising the fact that we're arguing for the same thing?
It's the premise of his first video, of which this is a response-to-a-response-to.[/QUOTE]
No, the main societal issue is that we live in a patriarchal culture that basically encourages and downplays the importance and trauma of rape.
Don't you remember the Steubenville case? Where most mainstream news channels were pretty much saying "oh, those poor boys! they had such a bright future, why did the victim had to come out?" That's what rape culture is.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464224]He really isn't, by discussing the issue he's encouraging people to stand up for what they believe in whether or not they agree with him. He is also not playing the blame game himself and is instead arguing against the idea that parents are completely responsible for rape existing in the world by not teaching their children not to rape hard enough, which is only going to cause problems in the long run as it completely obfuscates and ignores the main societal issues that need to be addressed.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464244]It's the same exact situation with just telling children not to commit rape, and yet they're still growing up and doing it. Just because something is repeated constantly throughout our lives doesn't mean we should completely stop saying it. We'll tell them we're telling them, we'll tell them and we'll tell them that we've told them and in doing so we will cause them to discuss it amongst themselves until it reaches the furtherest corners of the globe and it becomes such a well understood thing that the rates of things like date rape go down. That's how society works.[/QUOTE]
you've lost me. is teaching people about consent and rape a bad thing or not? what do you suggest to fix it?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464261]No, the main societal issue is that we live in a patriarchal culture that basically encourages and downplays the importance and trauma of rape.
Don't you remember the Steubenville case? Where most mainstream news channels were pretty much saying "oh, those poor boys! they had such a bright future, why did the victim had to come out?" That's what rape culture is.[/QUOTE]
Societal beliefs are changing, and that is highly evidenced by the fact that we are discussing it here right now rather than pretending it doesn't exist like people mostly did 10/20+ years ago. We should continue this type of discussion and promote it rather than assume we're not allowed to discuss the issue with the victims of rape in order to work out strategies to stop it happening in the future.
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;42464274]you've lost me. is teaching people about consent and rape a bad thing or not? what do you suggest to fix it?[/QUOTE]
It's good to teach people about rape and consent, just like it's good to discuss what could have been done to prevent it, that's how we learn and present the issue to more people. The idea that people are not teaching their children 'hard enough' is just a horrible cop out though.
[QUOTE=gokiyono;42464247]Disregard my post
I didn't mean to word it like that
I live a place where it isn't comfortable to be out after dark
So the answer I would get from women would most likely be the same as I would get from men.[/QUOTE]
It's impossible for people who live in other places, like me, to understand what would be an acceptable risk to take wherever you live and vice versa, all we know conclusively is that we don't need to take unnecessary risks and we should openly discuss issues to avoid taking them in the future.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464185]Why can't you do both? If open discussion is what leads to us finding a resolution to the issue of rape within our culture, why can't we learn from the victims of rape instead of beating around the bush for no purpose whatsoever.[/QUOTE]
I don't see what you would learn from the victims, I don't see how you can reduce it's likelyhood by telling a victim something they already know.
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464292]It's good to teach people about rape and consent, just like it's good to discuss what could have been done to prevent it, that's how we learn and present the issue to more people. The idea that people are not teaching their children 'hard enough' is just a horrible cop out though.[/QUOTE]
What could have been done to prevent it? As in, what the victim could have done or just in general what society can do to reduce rape?
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464292]Societal beliefs are changing, and that is highly evidenced by the fact that we are discussing it here right now rather than pretending it doesn't exist like people mostly did 10/20+ years ago. We should continue this type of discussion and promote it rather than assume we're not allowed to discuss the issue with the victims of rape in order to work out strategies to stop it happening in the future.
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
It's good to teach people about rape and consent, just like it's good to discuss what could have been done to prevent it, that's how we learn and present the issue to more people. The idea that people are not teaching their children 'hard enough' is just a horrible cop out though.[/QUOTE]
I wish I could say societal beliefs are changing, but feminism is being increasingly met by "those dumb feminazi cunts", and that there are ratings like these on videos...
[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3797350/hosting/2013-10/2013-10-09_12-45-16.png[/img]
(it seems to me that a lot of young people online think they're liberal, even though their ideas are pretty much conservative)
Because what can a victim do to reduce their likelyhood of being raped, is there something you can tell them that they don't already know?
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464292]It's good to teach people about rape and consent, just like it's good to discuss what could have been done to prevent it, that's how we learn and present the issue to more people. The idea that people are not teaching their children 'hard enough' is just a horrible cop out though.[/QUOTE]
there's extremely little women can do to prevent rape while living a normal life. that just ignores the real issue and it's a waste of time, and statistics back that up.
now, [URL="http://www.shinesa.org.au/download.cfm?downloadfile=222BD59D-AE6A-448E-CC98CEFA3B3CC641&typename=dmFile&fieldname=filename"]when 1 in 3 male teens and young men think it's okay to rape[/URL], you have yourself an issue to focus on
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464311]I wish I could say societal beliefs are changing, but feminism is being increasingly met by "those dumb feminazi cunts", and that there are ratings like these on videos...
[img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3797350/hosting/2013-10/2013-10-09_12-45-16.png[/img]
(it seems to me that a lot of young people online think they're liberal, even though their ideas are pretty much conservative)[/QUOTE]
There's some confusion between the ideas of social, economic and political liberalism and conservationism. The youtube video isn't anti-feminist, it's just arguing against people whom the author considers to be wrong. Just like any political movement there's a huge variety in the people who call themselves feminists. Some are fairly standard in their beliefs (fair, equal consideration of women and men) while others are really just misandrist (downright hatred of men). It's not up to me whether or not these beliefs are justified, but it's the reason I consider myself to be equalitarian rather than feminist.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;42464327]there's extremely little women can do to prevent rape while living a normal life. that just ignores the real issue and it's a waste of time, and statistics back that up.
now, [URL="http://www.shinesa.org.au/download.cfm?downloadfile=222BD59D-AE6A-448E-CC98CEFA3B3CC641&typename=dmFile&fieldname=filename"]when 1 in 3 male teens and young men think it's okay to rape[/URL], you have yourself an issue to focus on[/QUOTE]
Now, just think what these male teens and young men could learn from these rape victims, rather than shutting them up for no well good reason. How did anyone learn about the cruelness of rape, was it from a random stranger taking an interest or was it from a woman who was raped and then decided she had had enough and decided to start talking about her experiences?
You guys seem to be of the belief that a victim of rape cannot do anything to raise awareness.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464328]Now, just think what these male teens and young men could learn from these rape victims, rather than shutting them up for no well good reason. How did anyone learn about the cruelness of rape, was it from a random stranger taking an interest or was it from a woman who was raped and then decided she had had enough and decided to start talking about her experiences?[/QUOTE]
What does this have to do with anything?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42464342]What does this have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]
It's about open discussion of an issue, I'm not talking about you, me or a random mix of people on this website. I'm talking about in general, where all issues that were ever dealt with in our society had to be first openly discussed before people could do anything about it.
Once again, you seem to be of the belief that one person cannot do anything to help deal with an issue. For every one of these statistics of men who sympathize with a victim or finally understand the rules of consent is one potential rape that has been prevented.
If I understand what you're saying, then yeah I agree with that.
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
I don't see how that goes against what MisterMooth is saying.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42464364]If I understand what you're saying, then yeah I agree with that.
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
I don't see how that goes against what MisterMooth is saying.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't strictly go against the idea that we should try to talk to men about preventing rape, the thing I'm against is this whole idea is that rape victims for some reason aren't allowed to talk about rape and even discuss ways of preventing it in the future.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464328]You guys seem to be of the belief that a victim of rape cannot do anything to raise awareness.[/QUOTE]
Pot calling the kettle black right there... :/
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
You really think rape victims (and feminists) aren't trying to raise awareness of the issue AT ALL? Really?
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464383]It doesn't strictly go against the idea that we should try to talk to men about preventing rape, the thing I'm against is this whole idea is that rape victims for some reason aren't allowed to talk about rape and even discuss ways of preventing it in the future.[/QUOTE]
Hmm, that's not really what we're arguing or atleast weren't previously in the thread. Atleast I am arguing that precautions are dumb, and the problem can not be helped by changing how the victims live their lives. Even if it could, it's counter productive in my opinion.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464386]Pot calling the kettle black right there... :/
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
You really think rape victims (and feminists) aren't trying to raise awareness of the issue AT ALL? Really?[/QUOTE]
I for damn sure think they are, that's what I've been saying. So why aren't they able to suggest ways of preventing rape in the future? Why aren't they supposed to take whatever reasonable precautions are reasonable to take at the time based on the situation at hand?
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464403]I for damn sure think they are, that's what I've been saying. So why aren't they able to suggest ways of preventing rape in the future?[/QUOTE]
[I]Oh my god.[/I]
Have you really listened to us this whole time? Are you [B]really [/B]asking that question?
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464403]I for damn sure think they are, that's what I've been saying. So why aren't they able to suggest ways of preventing rape in the future? Why aren't they supposed to take whatever reasonable precautions are reasonable to take at the time based on the situation at hand?[/QUOTE]
We've gone through this but I'll go through it again. What "reasonable" precautions are we talking about?
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464412][I]Oh my god.[/I]
Have you really listened to us this whole time? Are you [B]really [/B]asking that question?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42442373]Because
1) precautions won't do diddly squat to affect the likelihood of it happening, because ultimately, whether or not the rape happens is up to... the rapist! not the victim! isn't that basic common logic?
2) when you start spreading the idea that it's up to the victim to take precautions, it's just gonna increase the already-existing victim blaming which is "but why didn't you take precautions?" "why did you do X?" "why did you do Y?"[/QUOTE]
Yea so apparently precautions mean nothing and we shouldn't learn from rape victims what we could possibly do in the future to prevent rape. You basically say it's all the perpetrator's fault (which it is) and then suggest that the victims cannot do anything after the fact because they cannot change the same exact thing happening again to someone else (because that would be a precaution). So rapes shouldn't happen, but when they do the victim shouldn't do anything to even try and get out of it by pre-preparing or anything really.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464422]Yea so apparently precautions mean nothing and we shouldn't learn from rape victims what we could possibly do in the future to prevent rape.[/QUOTE]
... yeah, you haven't listened to us at all. Jesus christ.
Please read the thread again (especially the last few pages), there are answers to your questions [I]right under your nose.[/I]
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464383]It doesn't strictly go against the idea that we should try to talk to men about preventing rape, the thing I'm against is this whole idea is that rape victims for some reason aren't allowed to talk about rape and even discuss ways of preventing it in the future.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464422]Yea so apparently precautions mean nothing and we shouldn't learn from rape victims what we could possibly do in the future to prevent rape. You basically say it's all the perpetrator's fault (which it is) and then suggest that the victims cannot do anything after the fact because they cannot change the same exact thing happening again to someone else (because that would be a precaution).[/QUOTE]
do you honestly believe rape victims are being silenced and they're hiding magical rape-prevention secrets or something
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464422]Yea so apparently precautions mean nothing and we shouldn't learn from rape victims what we could possibly do in the future to prevent rape. You basically say it's all the perpetrator's fault (which it is) and then suggest that the victims cannot do anything after the fact because they cannot change the same exact thing happening again to someone else (because that would be a precaution). So rapes shouldn't happen, but when they do the victim shouldn't do anything to even try and get out of it by pre-preparing or anything really.[/QUOTE]
Again how do you prepare to getting raped? What kind of precautions are we talking about? As far as I'm concerened there are none.
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