[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464431]... yeah, you haven't listened to us at all. Jesus christ.
Please read the thread again (especially the last few pages), there are answers to your questions [I]right under your nose.[/I][/QUOTE]
Please don't take this route with me. I've tried to be reasonable this whole time and restate my contention, if you don't even try to understand me this is going to go nowhere fast.
You're dealing in absolutes here, you can't seem to fathom that I can agree with you in some respects and disagree in others. I think EVERYONE should be getting involved, rapists, victims and everyone else in order to deal with this issue. This whole idea that there's nothing a prospective victim could ever do is hogwash, but that doesn't mean it's entirely their fault when something does happen. There's always something somebody can do, and to give up is just the same as not ever trying. People have been telling their kids not to rape for a long time now, we need to compound our efforts, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't tell their kids not to rape.
The whole crux of the situation is that rape needs to be openly discussed, and by cordoning off every other area of discussion because of the weak preposition of victim blaming, we are slowing down the whole process of creating a clear consciousness within the public because we can't come up with any clear belief on the issue.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464451]This whole idea that there's nothing a prospective victim could ever do is hogwash, but that doesn't mean it's entirely their fault when something does happen. There's always something somebody can do, and to give up is just the same as not ever trying.[/QUOTE]
list some actual examples then
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464451]Please don't take this route with me. I've tried to be reasonable this whole time and restate my contention, if you don't even try to understand me this is going to go nowhere fast.
You're dealing in absolutes here, you can't seem to fathom that I can agree with you in some respects and disagree in others. I think EVERYONE should be getting involved, rapists, victims and everyone else in order to deal with this issue. This whole idea that there's nothing a prospective victim could ever do is hogwash, but that doesn't mean it's entirely their fault when something does happen. There's always something somebody can do, and to give up is just the same as not ever trying.[/QUOTE]
Do you really think victims are not getting involved already?
If anything, the involvement of people like Thunderfoot is counter-productive at best, and promoting really harmful behaviour at worst...
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;42464461]list some actual examples then[/QUOTE]
Every example of a rape victim standing up and posting on blogs, meeting with other victims and talking to the public is an example. There are too many to list.
[quote]The whole crux of the situation is that rape needs to be openly discussed, and by cordoning off every other area of discussion because of the weak preposition of victim blaming, we are slowing down the whole process of creating a clear consciousness within the public because we can't come up with any clear belief on the issue.[/quote]
No one said discussion was victim-blaming.
It's saying crap like "don't do this, don't do that, don't do..." and various miscellaneous associated bullshit that IS victim-blaming.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464467]Do you really think victims are not getting involved already?
If anything, the involvement of people like Thunderfoot is counter-productive at best, and promoting really harmful behaviour at worst...[/QUOTE]
I do think victims are getting involved. By saying that other people should too I am not saying that victims are not or should not get involved. I am saying EVERYONE should get involved. If they are wrong then at least it promotes active discussion of the issue and they can be corrected. We really should NOT be tip toeing over the issue here.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464469]Every example of a rape victim standing up and posting on blogs, meeting with other victims and talking to the public is an example. There are too many to list.[/QUOTE]
example of what though? what are the actual precautions we should be telling women, which aren't common sense already?
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464469]Every example of a rape victim standing up and posting on blogs, meeting with other victims and talking to the public is an example. There are too many to list.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty naive to suggest this, since a guess based on basic common sense would tell you that victims are [B]already [/B]logically speaking up about what happened to them!
Example: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1310168[/url]
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464477]We really should NOT be tip toeing over the issue here.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly what thunderfoot is doing, though... :/
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464471]No one said discussion was victim-blaming.
It's saying crap like "don't do this, don't do that, don't do..." and various miscellaneous associated bullshit that IS victim-blaming.[/QUOTE]
Suggesting preventative measures is not the same as saying do this, don't do that, etc. It's the same kind of open discussion that we need in order to lower the rates of these kinds of things happening by actually giving proper advice to people who may want it.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464486]Suggesting preventative measures is not the same as saying do this, don't do that, etc. It's the same kind of open discussion that we need in order to lower the rates of these kinds of things happening by actually giving proper advice to people who may want it.[/QUOTE]
Suggesting preventative measures to who? Rapists or potential victims ?
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464477]I do think victims are getting involved. By saying that other people should too I am not saying that victims are not or should not get involved. I am saying EVERYONE should get involved. If they are wrong then at least it promotes active discussion of the issue and they can be corrected. We really should NOT be tip toeing over the issue here.[/QUOTE]
Well, yeah victims have experience, they can help educate the public, this is already happening and should probably happen even more - I'm completely with you on this. But when you're talking about what a potential victim can do to change their way of living to avoid getting raped, that's when I will disagree with you.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464483]It's pretty naive to suggest this, since a guess based on basic common sense would tell you that victims are [B]already [/B]logically speaking up about what happened to them!
Example: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1310168[/url][/QUOTE]
it really says a lot when a common reaction to a potential rape or sexual assault victim speaking out is "wow she's acting bitchy"
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;42464481]example of what though? what are the actual precautions we should be telling women, which aren't common sense already?[/QUOTE]
It depends on where you live, there are places in the world where you shouldn't go out at night or shouldn't wear certain things, etc. It also depends on the specific situation, which is why we need to discuss this things.
Remember, it's not for our benefit, it's for the benefit of potential rape victims who may not be well versed in everything you know or I know.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464499]shouldn't go out at night[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464499]shouldn't wear certain things[/QUOTE]
oh my god we've beeeeen oooovvveeeerrrr thiiiiisss a thousand times already in this very thread
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42464494]Well, yeah victims have experience, they can help educate the public, this is already happening and should probably happen even more - I'm completely with you on this. But when you're talking about what a potential victim can do to change their way of living to avoid getting raped, that's when I will disagree with you.[/QUOTE]
Well I also agree, you shouldn't change your way of living. What MaxOfS2D and others were suggesting was having NO counter-measures, when it really depends on where you live and what situation you are in.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464499]It depends on where you live, there are places in the world where you shouldn't go out at night or shouldn't wear certain things, etc. It also depends on the specific situation, which is why we need to discuss this things.
Remember, it's not for our benefit, it's for the benefit of potential rape victims who may not be well versed in everything you know or I know.[/QUOTE]
Do you really think it's productive to tell women to consider the chances of them getting raped when picking outfits? Even if clothing had any effect on the risk, which it doesn't, telling them to change how they dress is like telling a nerdy kid to stop wearing glasses and say that it's a precaution to getting bullied, it's really dumb. And do you think women need to be told that they shouldn't go out alone at night? You really think they're that dumb? That's just such common sense for not only women but men aswell.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464503]oh my god we've beeeeen oooovvveeeerrrr thiiiiisss a thousand times already in this very thread[/QUOTE]
It depends on your situation and where you live. It's not up to me or you or anyone else to decide what is right to do in a very specific situation, but we can minimise risks by not doing things that seem to be clearly risky (like stepping in a car with strangers, but clothing and other things can be a factor depending on where you live and the exact situation you are in).
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464518]It depends on your situation and where you live. It's not up to me or you or anyone else to decide what is right to do in a very specific situation, but we can minimise risks by not doing things that seem to be clearly risky (like stepping in a car with strangers, but clothing and other things can be a factor depending on where you live and the exact situation you are in).[/QUOTE]
I seriously feel like I'm talking to a wall. Please, I beg of you, READ THE DAMN THREAD.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464499]It depends on where you live, there are places in the world where you shouldn't go out at night or shouldn't wear certain things, etc. It also depends on the specific situation, which is why we need to discuss this things.
Remember, it's not for our benefit, it's for the benefit of potential rape victims who may not be well versed in everything you know or I know.[/QUOTE]
Actually, living in a place where there's a lot of robberies, it's not as simple as avoiding the problem, it's more important to deal with the cause rather than avoiding it. Avoiding it won't stop it, dealing with it will. That's why now there are less robberies here now that the police actually walk around here once in a while.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42464516]Do you really think it's productive to tell women to consider the chances of them getting raped when picking outfits? Even if clothing had any effect on the risk, which it doesn't, telling them to change how they dress is like telling a nerdy kid to stop wearing glasses and say that it's a precaution to getting bullied, it's really dumb. And do you think women need to be told that they shouldn't go out alone at night? You really think they're that dumb? That's just such common sense for not only women but men aswell.[/QUOTE]
My response is exactly the same as the one to the previous quote. I'm not necessarily defending anyone here and I'm just going off my own opinion, but it's not up to me, you or anyone else to decide what is considered reasonable behaviour depending on the situation, but you suggest there's nothing you can do is a cop out.
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42464524]Actually, living in a place where there's a lot of robberies, it's not as simple as avoiding the problem, it's more important to deal with the cause rather than avoiding it. Avoiding it won't stop it, dealing with it will. That's why now there are less robberies here now that the police actually walk around here once in a while.[/QUOTE]
Counter-measures like that are originally put in place in response to public outcry, which in turn is based off of open discussion of the issue, that's really the first step. We shouldn't be shouting anyone down for openly discussing an issue like rape, especially when we are all of the general consensus that it should be stopped.
I should be clear here that I only thing I disagree with is the idea that nothing could be done to prevent rape in the case where it does happen. Even if it was just a case of not turning a certain corner, when we look back at an event prospectively there are things that we could not predict and things that we could at least try to avoid the situation. There are certain things that we are supposed to do that are really just common sense, and if we do those then that's ok because that was all we could have done. That doesn't however invalidate the fact that these are things that we can or cannot do, and we should promote doing these things even if the majority of people are sick of it already. We should always do whatever we can to help prevent a dangerous situation no matter what as long as it is reasonable (as in we are willling to do it) to do. This isn't blaming a victim, it's just common sense, and that's why it's so hard for me to argue for it.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464526]My response is exactly the same as the one to the previous quote. I'm not necessarily defending anyone here and I'm just going off my own opinion, but it's not up to me, you or anyone else to decide what is considered reasonable behaviour depending on the situation, but you suggest there's nothing you can do is a cop out.[/QUOTE]
Whatever you can do is either common sense aka already being done or it's not reasonable - and then I'm not talking about things like clothing or body language cause that doesn't have any effect, if it did it would go under unreasonable precautions.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42464553]Whatever you can do is either common sense aka already being done or it's not reasonable - and then I'm not talking about things like clothing or body language cause that doesn't have any effect, if it did it would go under unreasonable precautions.[/QUOTE]
These goes back to mr.Thunderf00t suggesting these things somehow making him a misogynist. He is not forcing anyone to do these things, it's just a suggestion and we shouldn't condemn him for suggesting it. There is enough evidence to suggest that many things you could do can affect your chances of being raped, clothing and general demeanour are an adept example. This doesn't mean however, that people have to act in a certain way or they will be raped. It's just a reasonable suggestion and something people should be aware of as a part of an open discussion of an issue.
Not all things that are common sense are necessarily being done by everyone and I'm sure there are plenty of things that aren't currently being done that could be done on a societal and government level (else feminists wouldn't have very high ambitions for things they could possibly do).
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464595]These goes back to mr.Thunderf00t suggesting these things somehow making him a misogynist. He is not forcing anyone to do these things, it's just a suggestion and we shouldn't condemn him for suggesting it[/QUOTE]
Actually, yes, we should, because his "suggestions" stem from an attitude that is clearly misogynist.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464595]These goes back to mr.Thunderf00t suggesting these things somehow making him a misogynist. He is not forcing anyone to do these things, it's just a suggestion and we shouldn't condemn him for suggesting it. There is enough evidence to suggest that many things you could do can affect your chances of being raped, clothing and general demeanour are an adept example. This doesn't mean however, that people have to act in a certain way or they will be raped. It's just a reasonable suggestion and something people should be aware of as a part of an open discussion of an issue.
Not all things that are common sense are necessarily being done by everyone and I'm sure there are plenty of things that aren't currently being done that could be done on a societal and government level (else feminists wouldn't have very high ambitions for things they could possibly do).[/QUOTE]
I think the problem is this:
One should not be afraid of leaving their house because there is someone out there that will attack you, one should rather take the attacker into account instead of the victim. Talking about what the victim should done won't stop from that attacker from continuing, talking about how to stop the attackers will.
Same with robberies, I should be able to walk around the street without putting my backpack under my big jacket I bought just to prevent people from stealing it.
Anyone correct me if I said something wrong though!
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464604]Actually, yes, we should, because his "suggestions" stem from an attitude that is clearly misogynist.[/QUOTE]
How? Taking away the inflammatory titles he isn't advocating women being raped or badly treated. He also isn't forcing them to act a certain way by giving suggestions. This whole debacle was based on his response to the idea that parents aren't doing enough to teach their kids not to rape, and while I've only seen the two videos this thread is related to, his meaning and his contention is not inherently anti-feminist. To be guilty of something we say someone has to have a guilty mind and a guilty body. In this case he hasn't said that women should be raped or forced to do something one way or the other, and he doesn't have an intention to do so. This is a case of people getting offended by what he said rather than him meaning something offensive by saying it. The main difference here is that he doesn't care what you think and that I kind of do.
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42464626]I think the problem is this:
One should not be afraid of leaving their house because there is someone out there that will attack you, one should rather take the attacker into account instead of the victim. Talking about what the victim should done won't stop from that attacker from continuing, talking about how to stop the attackers will.
Same with robberies, I should be able to walk around the street without putting my backpack under my big jacket I bought just to prevent people from stealing it.
Anyone correct me if I said something wrong though![/QUOTE]
I just believe that we should try to do everything we possibly can to prevent these things from happening while still being able to live our lives. We shouldn't hide under the bed sheets, but we also shouldn't be jumping in random vans with strangers if we can avoid it.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464640]I just believe that we should try to do everything we possibly can to prevent these things from happening while still being able to live our lives. We shouldn't hide under the bed sheets, but we also shouldn't be jumping in random vans with strangers if we can avoid it.[/QUOTE]
And there's where the problem comes up, it's the bad guys fault that happens, we should not have to walk around with knifes and guns to protect ourselves. I understand what you are saying, but it won't help preventing something that will happen not matter what measures you take to avoid the problem. It's an idea but it won't work.
But that's my opinion, feel free to say otherwise.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42464678]And there's where the problem comes up, it's the bad guys fault that happens, we should not have to walk around with knifes and guns to protect ourselves. I understand what you are saying, but it won't help preventing something that will happen not matter what measures you take to avoid the problem. It's an idea but it won't work.
But that's my opinion, feel free to say otherwise.[/QUOTE]
No, no it's fine I understand. It's just a sad truth in the world that crimes do happen and that we do have to be careful around dangerous situations even though it's the people doing the wrong thing who should have to be the ones who worry. I think there's always things we can do, things can be done, to prevent something from happening again after it happens, we just need to openly discuss the issue and find out what those things are.
In this case it's not about the bad guy and what they've done, but it's about what could've been done overall to prevent the issue from happening. These are things we have to think about in retrospect in order to prevent situations from happening again.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464692]These are things we have to think about in retrospect in order to prevent situations from happening again.[/QUOTE]
We already know how to prevent situations like this from happening again. The problem is the attitude of people like Thunderfoot.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464713]We already know how to prevent situations like this from happening again. The problem is the attitude of people like Thunderfoot.[/QUOTE]
But Thunderfoot is trying to suggest things that could be done in the future situations to avoid this from happening. Whether or not you think it is useful to you is up to you, but you cannot say with authority that this won't be useful to somebody later on in preventing a dangerous situation, even if it is just in the form of discussions that come as a result.
Instead of condemning everyone who disagrees, people should even spend more time trying to discuss the issue and getting it out to as many people as possible.
The real issue is that you were offended by the way he talks about things, but that doesn't invalidate the meaning and intention of what he's saying. Which if still rough around the edges, is still a positive one.
It's really alienating when people condemn others who are trying to understand them, this is why I cannot call myself a feminist even though I share the belief in equality.
Just imagine if the very first thing you were asked when you walked into a police station with gunshot wounds is "why weren't you wearing a ballistic vest?".
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