[QUOTE=Jackald;42464736]It wouldn't be your FAULT, but if you weren't driving a B&W car, then you would be at less of a risk.[/QUOTE]
I think this covers it pretty much in a nutshell, thank you.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464720]But Thunderfoot is trying to suggest things that could be done in the future situations to avoid this from happening. Whether or not you think it is useful is up to you, but you cannot say with authority that this won't be useful to somebody later on in preventing a dangerous situation, even if it is just in the form of discussions that come as a result.
Instead of condemning everyone who disagrees, people should even spend more time trying to discuss the issue and getting it out to as many people as possible.
The real issue is that you were offended by the way he talks about things, but that doesn't invalidate the meaning and intention of what he's saying.[/QUOTE]
You can't minimize the factors that might lead the attacker to go at you.
Imagine a bank with all it's security, it still gets robbed. Women wearing more clothing won't minimize the chances of being raped, even with people that I know and seen on the internet saying that clothing makes things sexier, someone evil is bound to like the type of non exposing clothing that woman is wearing.
Let me take an example, sorry if it's out of context. There was this favela in Brazil with a druglord or something. Rather than locking down that place and letting them only deal in that area(since the crime is still being committed), the police or whatever they use in Brazil took the entire favela down breaking the crime completely. You can try and minimize, but that won't eliminate the problem
[QUOTE=Jackald;42464748]Oh really? Care to enlighten us?
because I don't think anyone needs to be taught "don't rape" in the same way nobody needs to be taught "don't murder" or "don't steal", but that doesn't stop people doing it.[/QUOTE]
If you murder someone the person dies. The whole "teach how not to rape" thing is aimed at the kind of rapes that happen at parties with alcohol involved or in relationships. It obviously doesn't apply to violent rape, you should know that.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42464760]Imagine a bank with all it's security, it still gets robbed. Women wearing more clothing out minimize the chances of being raped, even with people that I know and seen on the internet saying that clothing makes things sexier, someone evil is bound to like the type of non exposing clothing that woman is wearing.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Is she wearing revealing clothes? Someone will think she's a slut and is asking for it.
Is she wearing modest, neat clothes? Someone will interpret that as a sign that she's shy and non-confrontational, and therefore a good target because she'll be easier to threaten and manipulate, and less likely to make a fuss.
Is she wearing frumpy, unattractive clothes? Someone will see this as a sign that she's less sexually experienced, and therefore easier to manipulate. They will assume that people will be less likely to believe her, and she will worry that people won't believe her.
Is she dressed in mannish clothes? Someone will see her as a freak and think that she needs to be put in her place, and will think that no one will believe her if she reports it.
Is she dressed in women's religious garments that cover most of her body? Someone will reduce her entire existence to her gender, someone will see her as a member of a group they hate and that they know values chastity, and see sexual assault as a way to demean her.
Is she wearing a power-suit? Someone's going to get off on the idea of exerting power over her.
As long as people can tell your gender, there will be a predator who thinks that how you express your gender is a sign that you'd make a good victim.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;42464760]You can't minimize the factors that might lead the attacker to go at you.
Imagine a bank with all it's security, it still gets robbed. Women wearing more clothing won't minimize the chances of being raped, even with people that I know and seen on the internet saying that clothing makes things sexier, someone evil is bound to like the type of non exposing clothing that woman is wearing.
Let me take an example, sorry if it's out of context. There was this favela in Brazil with a druglord or something. Rather than locking down that place and letting only deal in that area(since the crime is still being committed), the police or whatever they use in Brazil took the entire favela down breaking the crime completely. You can try and minimize, but that won't work.[/QUOTE]
By this logic, there's no point doing anything and we should all go under the bed sheets and cry.
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464770]By this logic, there's no point doing anything and we should all go under the bed sheets and cry.[/QUOTE]
No. By this logic, you take action against those who are the attackers, not tell the victims to prevent the situation from happening again, not telling those who are innocent from avoiding going from Point A to B because Path C is bad.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464713]We already know how to prevent situations like this from happening again. The problem is the attitude of people like Thunderfoot.[/QUOTE]
I'll admit, looking over the video again and wrapping my head around the whole idea, it does seem a bit counter-productive to go into tirades about reducing factors and whatnot, and I think he also makes the mistake of not emphasising the 'changing the way people think about rape' idea. I can see his intentions, and for the most part the whole 'precautions' thing is a sound idea because it's applicable to real life. But he's talking in the context of material goods and I think that's where his argument and, in return, attitude falls flat on the face because he's likening material goods to sex. The problem with us as a society is that we either take it for granted, underestimating how important and life changing it is or just act ignorant about it.
It's a hard thing to think about, but addressing the cause is the right way to go. Thunder's just saying stuff that people have already heard and accidentally or not drawing the focus away. I understand what people in this thread are saying now.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42464769]Exactly.
Is she wearing revealing clothes? Someone will think she's a slut and is asking for it.
Is she wearing modest, neat clothes? Someone will interpret that as a sign that she's shy and non-confrontational, and therefore a good target because she'll be easier to threaten and manipulate, and less likely to make a fuss.
Is she wearing frumpy, unattractive clothes? Someone will see this as a sign that she's less sexually experienced, and therefore easier to manipulate. They will assume that people will be less likely to believe her, and she will worry that people won't believe her.
Is she dressed in mannish clothes? Someone will see her as a freak and think that she needs to be put in her place, and will think that no one will believe her if she reports it.
Is she dressed in women's religious garments that cover most of her body? Someone will reduce her entire existence to her gender, someone will see her as a member of a group they hate and that they know values chastity, and see sexual assault as a way to demean her.
Is she wearing a power-suit? Someone's going to get off on the idea of exerting power over her.
As long as people can tell your gender, there will be a predator who thinks that how you express your gender is a sign that you'd make a good victim.[/QUOTE]
But how likely are all of those things compared to each other? The person seeing someone at a party is more likely to be the first kind you listed than any of the others, or else they might have some interest but aren't enough of a jackass to rape someone over it.
[QUOTE=Jackald;42464779]Yeah, but all that security reduces the chance of being robbed.
Actually the video talked more about body language than clothing. It's more that if you're standing on your own looking nervous and swaying on your feet, you look an easier target than someone stood in a group of sober people who all look like they could take you in a fight, for example.[/QUOTE]
I think it's even worse to imply that someone should think about their body language becasue it will reduce their chances of getting raped. Seriously women can't walk around keeping their body language in mind constantly.
[QUOTE=Jackald;42464748]Oh really? Care to enlighten us?
because I don't think anyone needs to be taught "don't rape" in the same way nobody needs to be taught "don't murder" or "don't steal", but that doesn't stop people doing it.[/QUOTE]
uh dude the point is that some people don't understand consent as much as they should, not that they're psychopathic violent rapists. the fact that people keep making this mistake is honestly mindboggling
[QUOTE=Zyler;42464786]But how likely are all of those things compared to each other? The person seeing someone at a party is more likely to be the first kind you listed than any of the others, or else they might have some interest but aren't enough of a jackass to rape someone over it.[/QUOTE]
Men aren't horny animals who can't keep themselves from raping because someone is wearing revealing clothing.
[QUOTE=NoaJM;42464784]I'll admit, looking over the video again and wrapping my head around the whole idea, it does seem a bit counter-productive to go into tirades about reducing factors and whatnot, and I think he also makes the mistake of not emphasising the 'changing the way people think about rape' idea. I can see his intentions, and for the most part the whole 'precautions' thing is a sound idea because it's applicable to real life. But he's talking in the context of material goods and I think that's where his argument and, in return, attitude falls flat on the face because he's likening material goods to sex. The problem with us as a society is that we either take it for granted, underestimating how important and life changing it is or just act ignorant about it.
It's a hard thing to think about, but addressing the cause is the right way to go. Thunder's just saying stuff that people have already heard and accidentally or not drawing the focus away. I understand what people in this thread are saying now.[/QUOTE]
Let it be said I don't agree completely with Thunder and his annoying tirades. I still think we should look at risk management though as a part of particular situations and how people should behave, and we only learn these things from discussion about it.
[QUOTE=NoaJM;42464784]I'll admit, looking over the video again and wrapping my head around the whole idea, it does seem a bit counter-productive to go into tirades about reducing factors and whatnot, and I think he also makes the mistake of not emphasising the 'changing the way people think about rape' idea. I can see his intentions, and for the most part the whole 'precautions' thing is a sound idea because it's applicable to real life. But he's talking in the context of material goods and I think that's where his argument and, in return, attitude falls flat on the face because he's likening material goods to sex. The problem with us as a society is that we either take it for granted, underestimating how important and life changing it is or just act ignorant about it.
It's a hard thing to think about, but addressing the cause is the right way to go. Thunder's just saying stuff that people have already heard and accidentally or not drawing the focus away. I understand what people in this thread are saying now.[/QUOTE]
I can totally see where Thunderfoot comes from, but his attitude is counter-productive at best, and promoting a very unhealthy/harmful behaviour at worst. And when this dude makes videos like
[IMG]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3797350/hosting/2013-10/2013-10-09_14-20-17.png[/IMG]
I'm not really gonna give him the benefit of the doubt...
[QUOTE=Jackald;42464806]I'd agree with you there, i'm just saying the video was saying that people get victimized more due to their body language than their clothing.
I'd argue the preventative factors are much simpler than that; go in a group, have a wingman looking out for you, don't leave your drink down somewhere, don't go absolutely bananas on getting drunk unless you're with friends who can keep an eye on you, that kind of thing.
And to clarify again, i'm not saying that this eliminates the risk, or that it makes it the fault of the victim somehow if they don't do these things, but it certainly reduces the risk.[/QUOTE]
I agree but it's an entirely different thing when you are alone. It's hard to prevent it when you don't have people taking care of you. Besides it's not like people actually go through the thought that the party they are going to is filled with potential rapists and stuff like that.
They just want to have a good time without having to worry about that.
[QUOTE=Jackald;42464849]It's a balance thing. People lock their doors at night, for instance. It's not because they think every passerby is going to try and break in, it's just a precaution you take. [/QUOTE]
I think we've already explained several times in this thread why theft, burglary, mugging are a false equivalence to rape...
[QUOTE=Jackald;42464867]Okay, so an accurate equivalence.
holding your thumb over your bottle would be a light precaution
Not getting too drunk would be a moderate precaution
Wearing a chastity belt would be going too far.[/QUOTE]
BUT how will taking care of how much you drink prevent the rapist from intruding your pants? If he's going to do it, whether you are drunk or not.
[QUOTE=Jackald;42464915]Sober people are harder to persuade, assuming we are talking about party rape not violent rape[/QUOTE]
Alright so never get drunk at parties? Or only get drunk when you're sure there are no be rapists around? I don't understand [I]when[/I] you take these precautions.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42443302][URL="http://www.consented.ca/myths/provocative-clothing-is-a-risk-factor/"]It doesn't[/URL] — that's the best part about those so-called precautions.[/QUOTE]
I would be more likely to have sex with a woman if she was dressed attractively over one who wasn't.
I'm pretty sure this would apply to rapists too.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;42465113]I would be more likely to have sex with a woman if she was dressed attractively over one who wasn't.
I'm pretty sure this would apply to rapists too.[/QUOTE]
did you not read the link?
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;42465113]I would be more likely to have sex with a woman if she was dressed attractively over one who wasn't.
I'm pretty sure this would apply to rapists too.[/QUOTE]
Attractively is very subjective though...
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jackald;42465020]No, just don't overdo it if.[/QUOTE]
Really? Useless advice, sounds like common sense to me.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42465186]Really? Useless advice, sounds like common sense to me.[/QUOTE]
It's also common sense that sex without consent is rape, yet we both know that there's a staggering number of people who are confused about it.
There's literally no reason to oppose advocating taking [B][U]reasonable[/U][/B] precautions otherwise referred to as "common sense".
[QUOTE=xxncxx;42463949]don't tell kids to look both ways, that's victim blaming![/QUOTE]
Yeah, women are like little naive children, so we need to educate and patronise them about obvious things or else they'll never learn and never stop getting raped! I mean it's pretty much their fault it keeps happening, they just don't listen to us!
Personally, I would argue this:
[t]http://static.jessecrouch.com/martialexplorer/hierarchy-of-defense02.png[/t]
Be it learning self control and not taking too many drinks at a party or not accepting drinks from strangers to being alert for any threats and avoiding conflict by not speaking to suspicious people and avoiding violent areas to learning Muay Thai and knocking any would-be rapist/mugger on their asses or investing in mace, a taser, or a firearm and practicing using them, I don't see why women shouldn't be allowed to take steps to empower themselves in circumstances that they can't control. People who say that implying women who take precautions to protect their well being is "victim blaming" seem to be implying that women are weak and shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves.
The same people who are arguing that women can't control whether or not a psychopathic rapist would try to rape them (which is true,) are also arguing that women should be powerless in the face of those same dangers, because again, taking these measures is "victim blaming." This is a worldview that I simply cannot accept. I refuse to believe that women are too weak to defend themselves like some of you seem to be implying. Women should be allowed to take control of the situation and protect themselves. If that makes me an MRA then I guess I'm an MRA.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42469097]Personally, I would argue this:
[t]http://static.jessecrouch.com/martialexplorer/hierarchy-of-defense02.png[/t]
Be it learning self control and not taking too many drinks at a party or not accepting drinks from strangers to being alert for any threats and avoiding conflict by not speaking to suspicious people and avoiding violent areas to learning Muay Thai and knocking any would-be rapist/mugger on their asses or investing in mace, a taser, or a firearm and practicing using them, I don't see why women shouldn't be allowed to take steps to empower themselves in circumstances that they can't control. People who say that implying women who take precautions to protect their well being is "victim blaming" seem to be implying that women are weak and shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves.
The same people who are arguing that women can't control whether or not a psychopathic rapist would try to rape them (which is true,) are also arguing that women should be powerless in the face of those same dangers, because again, taking these measures is "victim blaming." This is a worldview that I simply cannot accept. I refuse to believe that women are too weak to defend themselves like some of you seem to be implying. Women should be allowed to take control of the situation and protect themselves. If that makes me an MRA then I guess I'm an MRA.[/QUOTE]
And what the fuck does that do for the folks who for reasons of health can't fight back? You try crossing the street in a hurry when you've got a wheelchair to hump across the curb.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42469097] People who say that implying women who take precautions to protect their well being is "victim blaming" seem to be implying that women are weak and shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves.
[/QUOTE]
It's not about women empowering themselves, it's about people (usually men) who think they're doing some righteous action by reminding women all the time with "safety tips" or whatever like they're a parent talking down to a child who doesn't know any better.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42469313]And what the fuck does that do for the folks who for reasons of health can't fight back? You try crossing the street in a hurry when you've got a wheelchair to hump across the curb.[/QUOTE]
Now you're implying that not only women, but also the handicapped are incapable of being strong? That somehow the disabled are inferior? You disgust me.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4RkU66ys7g[/media]
A quick Google search for "Wheelchair self defense" showed me this. Apart from this I've seen people in wheelchairs take part in gymnastics and sports.
People in wheelchairs are capable of being incredibly strong and defending themselves. Unless you have an incredibly severe disability (in which case you probably aren't going out on your own anyway,) you would probably be able to defend yourself.
Really wish people would stop comparing rape to theft etc. The motivations behind both crimes are entirely different. Malicious rape is committed for psychological gratification. Theft is done pretty much only for physical reasons (ie need to steal some cash/food so you can survive). Therefore comparing rape prevention to theft prevention is stupid as fuck.
But then there's the fact that a LOT (pretty sure it's the majority in fact) of rape is done because people simply don't know that they are raping someone.
[url]http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html[/url]
[quote]Only Psychos Think Rape is OK...Right?
Societal Attitudes Supporting Rape
- A survey of 6,159 college students enrolled at 32 institutions in the U.S. found the following: (ref 4)
· 54% of the women surveyed had been the victims of some form of sexual abuse; more than one in four college-aged women had been the victim of rape or attempted rape;
· 57% of the assaults occurred on dates;
· 73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;
· 25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior;
· 42% of the victims told no one.
- In a survey of high school students, 56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances. (ref 5)
- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds found:(ref 5)
· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months.
- In a survey of male college students:
· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).
· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)
- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)
· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.
· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex.
- Women with a history of rape or attempted rape during adolescence were almost twice as likely to experience a sexual assault during college, and were three times as likely to be victimized by a husband. (ref 9)
- Sexual assault is reported by 33% to 46% of women who are being physically assaulted by their husbands.(ref 10)[/quote]
It is the way our society portrays sex and women in general that breeds rapists. It's entirely unfair for our culture to be this way then turn around and say "you ladies should be taking precautions!" The responsibility is on [I]us[/I] to make it a safer society for women, not them.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42469428]Now you're implying that not only women, but also the handicapped are incapable of being strong? That somehow the disabled are inferior? You disgust me.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4RkU66ys7g[/media]
A quick Google search for "Wheelchair self defense" showed me this. Apart from this I've seen people in wheelchairs take part in gymnastics and sports.
People in wheelchairs are capable of being incredibly strong and defending themselves. Unless you have an incredibly severe disability (in which case you probably aren't going out on your own anyway,) you would probably be able to defend yourself.[/QUOTE]
I really don't think that is what he was implying at all, you just jumped the gun so forcefully you might actually reach Mars.
The physically weak, or those who do not know how, or have the conviction to, use physical means to defend themselves. What the hell will your idea do about those? Running away isn't always the answer, but sometimes it is the only option someone might have.
[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42469444]
It is the way our society portrays sex and women in general that breeds rapists. It's entirely unfair for our culture to be this way then turn around and say "you ladies should be taking precautions!" The responsibility is on [I]us[/I] to make it a safer society for women, not them.[/QUOTE]
You're absolutely right. I agree with you completely. Until that wonderful day comes in the distant future, however, where people need not worry about violent crime, I consider it foolish to pretend that everything's okay and not take steps to protect my family, my home, and myself.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42469428]Now you're implying that not only women, but also the handicapped are incapable of being strong? That somehow the disabled are inferior? You disgust me.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4RkU66ys7g[/media]
A quick Google search for "Wheelchair self defense" showed me this. Apart from this I've seen people in wheelchairs take part in gymnastics and sports.
People in wheelchairs are capable of being incredibly strong and defending themselves. Unless you have an incredibly severe disability (in which case you probably aren't going out on your own anyway,) you would probably be able to defend yourself.[/QUOTE]
Guess what - [i]not everyone in a wheelchair is strong like that[/i]. Plus, there's the blind or folks who have neurological difficulties in reading human body language.
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