'Feminist logic' Stay Safe = YOU DESERVE RAPE! - General

[QUOTE=BLOODGA$M;42471014]If you get drunk and someone rapes you, it's your fault! If you wanted to get drunk you should have been born a boy, you knew the dangers! [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] I don't take issue with people defending themselves, my issue is with the way people like the one in the OP video present the concept in a ridiculous patronizing way. I can learn to defend myself just fine by signing up for self defence classes or visiting a shooting range or something, I don't need Reddit MRA types babbling down my ear that I "shouldn't dress skimpy" or "shouldn't go out drinking" like they're telling their fucking 5 year old kid to not talk to strangers.[/QUOTE] It's never the victim's fault for being in [I]any[/I] sort of crime, period. In a perfect world, one wouldn't have to worry about these things. You're absolutely right. But it [I]still[/I] happens. I would rather tell my son "Hey, please be careful and don't get hurt by any creeps tonight," instead of "Nothing could possibly go wrong! Carry on like nothing bad could ever happen to you!" These things do happen and they're a tragedy each time. As long as people are around to let themselves get into bad situations by getting black-out drunk, the disgusting lowlife scum of the earth will be there to take advantage of a vulnerable target. These disgusting people aim for the low-hanging fruit. This is because they are cowardly. Don't become the low-hanging fruit. This is true of all scam artists and thieves everywhere. It is not the victim's fault that the cowardly or the wicked exist. It is not the victim's fault that the thieves exist. It is not the victim's fault that the rapists exist. Also I never knew that drunk men can't get raped. In addition, I'm not saying that every person ever out there should become a teetotaler. I'm just saying that going out, getting black-out drunk, and almost having alcohol poisoning as your idea of fun isn't a wise thing to do, because that's when a person becomes vulnerable. 2 drinks is fine. 20 isn't. When I'm out drinking I take care never to drink too much, for fear of what I might do to others in addition to what others would have done to me. Again, to be clear, I'm only echoing the "drink responsibly" sentiment that every beer, wine, or spirits commercial ever advocates. This is true of all humans, not just women. [editline]9th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471087]No matter how far fetched this sounds it's true, if you're telling girls not to get drunk, you're in a way being sexist, there's no way around that. [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] And that's why it's counter productive, cause rape is a problem with sexism in society.[/QUOTE] You're absolutely right. Saying that all women should become teetotalers is sexist.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471168]Also I never knew that drunk men can't get raped.[/QUOTE] Yeah there are exceptions but like 80-90% of rape victims are female. [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471168]In addition, I'm not saying that every person ever out there should become a teetotaler. I'm just saying that going out, getting black-out drunk, and almost having alcohol poisoning as your idea of fun isn't a wise thing to do, because that's when a person becomes vulnerable. 2 drinks is fine. 20 isn't. When I'm out drinking I take care never to drink too much, for fear of what I might do to others in addition to what others would have done to me.[/QUOTE] Yeah but this is not relevent to fighting rape, this shit is unhealthy for many other reasons. [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] Nobody cares about guys getting blacked out drunk, so why should women be any different?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471240]Yeah there are exceptions but like 80-90% of rape victims are female. Yeah but this is not relevent to fighting rape, this shit is unhealthy for many other reasons.[/QUOTE] Yeah but if you don't get to the point where you lose control to that unhealthy level, wouldn't that also intuitively mean that you don't get to the point where any would-be criminals would be able to exploit you for no-good? (Thieves like this type of person because they're easier to manipulate because they lack control, so they lift wallets, handbags, jewelry, oftentimes without you even noticing. Same with rapists.) (unless you get drugged by a trusted friend but at that point there's not a lot you can do, unfortunately. Personally what I do is either bring my own drink to the party, or only drink it if I open the can or pour the beer for myself, or watch the bartender do it.) [editline]9th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471240] Nobody cares about guys getting blacked out drunk, so why should women be any different?[/QUOTE] Ask those people, not me, because I'm not one of those people. I want nothing to do with that kind of stupidity.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471292]Yeah but if you don't get to the point where you lose control to that unhealthy level, wouldn't that also intuitively mean that you don't get to the point where any would-be criminals would be able to exploit you for no-good? (Thieves like this type of person because they're easier to manipulate because they lack control, so they lift wallets, handbags, jewelry, oftentimes without you even noticing. Same with rapists.) (unless you get drugged by a trusted friend but at that point there's not a lot you can do, unfortunately.) [editline]9th October 2013[/editline] Ask those people, not me, because I'm not one of those people. I want nothing to do with that kind of stupidity.[/QUOTE] Right but unfortunately because such a large portion of the victims are women, anything you might suggest as a precaution to rape is essentially a suggestion for precautions for women to take - because it makes no sense for a guy to not get drunk because he might get raped, that just doesn't happen.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471292] (unless you get drugged by a trusted friend but at that point there's not a lot you can do, unfortunately.) [/QUOTE] Unfortunately dude, this is at least a large plurality, if not majority of drug related rape, as [i] people already enact all the precautions for stranger spiking as a matter of course.[/i] It's like talking about fire safety and then someone comes in and starts going on about stop drop and roll. (Which, to extend the metaphor, isn't helpful because it caused too many folks to roll under beds and become difficult for the firefighters to find. Yeah, I've got firefighters in the family.)

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471348]Right but unfortunately because such a large portion of the victims are women, anything you might suggest as a precaution to rape is essentially a suggestion for women to do - because it makes no sense for a guy to not get drunk because he might get raped, that just doesn't happen.[/QUOTE] So there's nothing one can do to help potential rape victims to defend themselves because that would make them sexist because most rape victims are women?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471364]So there's nothing one can do to help potential rape victims to defend themselves because that would make me sexist because most rape victims are women?[/QUOTE] Look, even if "not getting drunk" was an effective precaution, when the would you take it, would you literally never get blacked out drunk? [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] Cause that's a pretty unrealistic thing to expect.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42471356]Unfortunately dude, this is at least a large plurality, if not majority of drug related rape, as [i] people already enact all the precautions for stranger spiking as a matter of course.[/i] It's like talking about fire safety and then someone comes in and starts going on about stop drop and roll. (Which, to extend the metaphor, isn't helpful because it caused too many folks to roll under beds and become difficult for the firefighters to find. Yeah, I've got firefighters in the family.)[/QUOTE] Well this goes to "unreasonable" territory, like I said before about not trusting anybody but myself or a bartender with touching my drinks. One should not be expected to distrust their friends. This is where social reform and education comes in, like I said before. There's only so much one can protect themselves from.

It's unrealistic because suddenly girls have to think about how they're drinking while guys do not, it makes sexism worse, and ultimately it will make rape worse.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471423]Look, even if "not getting drunk" was an effective precaution,[U] when the would you take it[/U], would you literally never get blacked out drunk? [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] Cause that's a pretty unrealistic thing to expect.[/QUOTE] wait what?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471439]wait what?[/QUOTE] You say that it's okay to drink maybe two shots, get a little drunk, but not twenty. Are you implying one should never take twenty shots?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471457]You say that it's okay to drink maybe two shots, get a little drunk, but not twenty. Are you implying one should never take twenty shots?[/QUOTE] Yep. Maybe I'm just super conservative, but I don't think having too much to drink is wise. People do stupid things when drunk. I've seen too many friends kill themselves thanks to the drink.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471348]Right but unfortunately because such a large portion of the victims are women, anything you might suggest as a precaution to rape is essentially a suggestion for precautions for women to take - because it makes no sense for a guy to not get drunk because he might get raped, that just doesn't happen.[/QUOTE] It makes sense because like he said, rape is only one of the things that could happen, men can get robbed, and that's pretty damn common. It's generally not a good idea for anyone to get heavily intoxicated without someone to watch over them, but then again that's common sense, you don't need a youtube video to know this.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471465]Yep.[/QUOTE] So to get it straight; You're implying women should never get blacked out drunk because they might get raped - BUT to make it not sexist you are also implying men should never get blacked out drunk because they might get raped? [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] Why should any guy ever take that precaution seriously?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471483]So to get it straight; You're implying women should never get blacked out drunk because they might get raped - BUT to make it not sexist you are also implying men should never get blacked out drunk because they might get raped?[/QUOTE] No, because they'll fucking get themselves or others killed among other things. Not being raped is entirely incidental.

[QUOTE=Deep;42471468]It makes sense because like he said, rape is only one of the things that could happen, men can get robbed, and that's pretty damn common. It's generally not a good idea for anyone to get heavily intoxicated without someone to watch over them, but then again that's common sense, you don't need a youtube video to know this.[/QUOTE] Yeah, but then it's not a precaution to rape is it? This is not the place he should be bringing that precaution up is it? [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471498]No, because they'll fucking get themselves or others killed among other things. Not being raped is entirely incidental.[/QUOTE] So why call it a precaution to getting raped if there are just so many other things that could go wrong... [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] Like, how many people today think "I might get murdered, robbed, assaulted, etc so I shouldn't get drunk" ?? None, so why don't you start telling the general public not to get drunk before you tell rape victims.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471500]Yeah, but then it's not a precaution to rape is it? This is not the place he should be bringing that precaution up is it? [editline]10th October 2013[/editline] So why call it a precaution to getting raped if there are just so many other things that could go wrong...[/QUOTE] Because I think that the argument that drinking too much as a way of ensuring personal safety is not entirely without merit. Not drinking means that the cowardly are less likely to prey upon you. Thieves and Rapists are cowardly. Ergo, not becoming compromised is an excellent way to minimize risk of injury or death from any number of sources.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471545]Because I think that the argument that drinking too much as a way of ensuring personal safety is not entirely without merit. Not drinking means that the cowardly are less likely to prey upon you. Thieves and Rapists are cowardly. Ergo, not becoming compromised is an excellent way to minimize risk of injury or death from any number of sources.[/QUOTE] I agree with you, but how can you expect potential rape victims (aka women) to take that precaution seriously if nobody else does?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471500] Like, how many people today think "I might get murdered, robbed, assaulted, etc so I shouldn't get drunk" ?? None, so why don't you start telling the general public not to get drunk before you tell rape victims.[/QUOTE] Don't worry, we do. [img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7333627/ShareX/2013-10/2013-10-09_20-09-46.png[/img]

Great so why are you arguing in a debate about rape then when you obviously have a much larger scaled debate at hand?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471554]I agree with you, but how can you expect potential rape victims (aka women) to take that precaution seriously if nobody else does?[/QUOTE] I guess I honestly can't expect anybody to treat their body with the same respect I treat my own. That's entirely their business. However, there's a point where if I see a truck bearing down on somebody crossing the street, and they don't realize the truck was there, what kind of person would I be to not push them out of the way of the truck?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471618]I guess I honestly can't expect anybody to treat their body with the same respect I treat my own. That's entirely their business. However, there's a point where if I see a truck bearing down on somebody crossing the street, and they don't realize the truck was there, what kind of person would I be to not push them out of the way of the truck?[/QUOTE] Yeah, I'm all good with you telling people to not get drunk but don't come to a freaking debate about rape and target rape victims.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471581]Great so why are you arguing in a debate about rape then when you obviously have a much larger scaled debate at hand?[/QUOTE] Why are you working so hard to argue that one point (which is perfectly valid by your own admission,) is moot because it's only one of a several reasons not to do something?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471657]Why are you working so hard to argue that one point (which is perfectly valid by your own admission,) is moot because it's only one of a several reasons not to do something?[/QUOTE] Because if the precaution applies to everybody it's not a precaution against rape.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471647]Yeah, I'm all good with you telling people to not get drunk but don't come to a freaking debate about rape and target rape victims.[/QUOTE] Well you're sitting here trying to call me a misogynist so of course I'm going to back up my point. There's no way I'm going to come out of this argument not being accused of being something I'm not, is there?

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;42471675]Well you're sitting here trying to call me a misogynist so of course I'm going to back up my point. There's no way I'm going to come out of this argument not being accused of being something I'm not, is there?[/QUOTE] Ofcourse people are assuming you're talking about precautions to rape when you're in a thread about rape, where people are debating about rape.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471704]Ofcourse people are assuming you're talking about precautions to rape when you're in a thread about rape, where people are debating about rape.[/QUOTE] I humbly posit that you're falling into the same trap again, where you assume that rape talk can [I]only[/I] be about women. While you're right in that being abused is merely one of the things that can happen to one who is deeply intoxicated, it is still part of the discussion and a suitable reason for not letting one's self getting intoxicated. Not letting yourself get to the point where you can become more easily abused is a suitable precaution to not being easily abused, be it man, woman, black, white, Irish, British, Catholic, Jew, or everything in-between. This is false dichotomy; it isn't either "only about rape" or "not about rape," it contains many elements and facets, one of them being rape. That's why I believe this argument is relevant.

I like getting drunk every now and then and untill I can justify not doing it I'm not going to expect anyone else to.

I have a feeling that we're going to have to fundamentally disagree on this point. [editline]9th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471783]I like getting drunk every now and then and untill I can justify not doing it I'm not going to expect anyone else to.[/QUOTE] I like getting a little drunk too; I just don't like getting a lot drunk ;) [editline]9th October 2013[/editline] I'm going to have to take a break from this discussion. Peace.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42471554]I agree with you, but how can you expect potential rape victims (aka women) to take that precaution seriously if nobody else does?[/QUOTE] Women aren't the only potential rape victims.. I think you are missing the message he means. There's a difference between not getting drunk and drinking responsibly. We aren't saying don't get drunk, we're saying if you get drunk, you should be responsible about it. You just shouldn't be gettin drunk in unsafe situations. Get drunk with people you know wont abuse you. If you're getting drunk in a bar or some sort of cray party, have a DD or someone sober to help you out of trouble and keep you safe. It's good to party, but party smart too.