'Feminist logic' Stay Safe = YOU DESERVE RAPE! - General

[QUOTE=FPChris;42443864]"Teach people not to rape" is the most stupid thing I've ever heard.[/QUOTE] how is teaching people consent stupid

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42443863]I thought it happens for a number of reasons, one of them being men who wait for drunk (easy) girls at a club to take advantage of or in different situations with strangers? And that's what this was about?[/QUOTE] Do tell me, what percent of rapes does your hypothetical scenario take up?

[QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;42443848]How would everyone here suggest we stop the rapists in question? [/QUOTE] I don't know what you can do about those people who already adopted the mentality of a rapist but kids these days seem really confused about consent. There's this poll floating somewhere where good % of college kids said it's okay to force a woman to have sex or that she owes sex to a guy. Basically there's a whole lot of people who don't know they are a rapist.

[QUOTE=MisterMooth;42443877]how is teaching people consent stupid[/QUOTE] I'm going to go ahead and assume he's talking about the protesters who keep things vague and aren't specific about what they are teaching. There definitely does need to be education regarding consent, I agree with you there. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;42443863]I thought it happens for a number of reasons, one of them being men who wait for drunk (easy) girls at a club to take advantage of or in different situations with strangers? And that's what this was about?[/QUOTE] I think the problem is you're coming up with examples of what might drive people but it comes off as extremely narrow sighted. Frankly, I don't know the "percentages" of events, which is why I'm not making strong statements, but it sounds like you're pulling examples from TV shows or something. [QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;42443848]How would everyone here suggest we stop the rapists in question? We already have laws and consequences and I can't think of much else we can do to stop them, at least for people who have already adopted the mentality of a rapist. I mean it's as much common sense as anything else, like walking out alone at night is riskier than being with friends/being in broad daylight. I'm not saying it's your fault if you get raped, because OFC that's controlled by the rapist, but if you want to be safer then there are precautions you can take like those aforementioned. I'm not saying you have to always follow precautions; I'm not going to walk around with a bulletproof vest because I'm worried I might get shot. It's entirely your choice if you want to be safer, but you can never completely remove the risk, only lower the chances. As such, it's never your fault if you get raped, but I'm not saying you deserve it if I say there are things you can do to reduce the chances of it happening.[/QUOTE] The whole topic is annoying because if you say that possible victims should be aware of their risks it's seen as blaming the victim. Atleast if the history of these threads is any indicator.

[QUOTE=FPChris;42443864]"Teach people not to rape" is the most stupid thing I've ever heard.[/QUOTE] It's not a stupid idea when we can reduce the number of rapists by teaching about the consequences of it (for you and the victim) at a reasonable age (young enough to still be learning from others, but old enough to deal with heavy subjects). For people who are already rapists, however, it's definitely more difficult to "teach them not to rape", probably borderline-impossible.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42443884]Do tell me, what percent of rapes does your hypothetical scenario take up?[/QUOTE] How's the percentage relevant to anything? Mind you that we're not talking about how to fix rape. And hypothetical scenario really? What are you even saying that it doesn't happen? I know about people who did (maybe still do) that. [QUOTE=Brt5470;42443914]I think the problem is you're coming up with examples of what might drive people but it comes off as extremely narrow sighted. Frankly, I don't know the "percentages" of events, which is why I'm not making strong statements, but it sounds like you're pulling examples from TV shows or something.[/QUOTE] I'm not taking it from TV shows. Men do that all the time. Get women drunk in order to make them easier, or even so drunk that they can't refuse at all. I've seen people try that and know about people who did that.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42443727]You don't expect there to be men at a club who just fucking wait for a drunk girl to take advantage of? You can't expect getting raped by someone you trust so indeed you can't take precautions, but there are situations where you can expect the danger (not necessarly only rape). There are times where the factors you control are minimal. There are times where they aren't. The point of taking precautions isn't to fix the problem but only to minimize your chances of getting hurt. And sometimes there isn't anything you can do too.[/QUOTE] The so called "precautions" you can take to not get raped are common sense, like don't go into a dark alley at midnight, don't accept drinks from a total stranger, avoid violent gangs etc - there is no need to even call these precautions to getting raped because this is common sense for both men and women. [editline]7th October 2013[/editline] Rape can't be prevented by taking precautions, because most rape situations don't really involve these situations - they happen when and where you don't expect them.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42443938]How's the percentage relevant to anything? Mind you that we're not talking about how to fix rape. And hypothetical scenario really? What are you even saying that it doesn't happen? I know about people who did (maybe still do) that.[/QUOTE] I just think you have a warped attitude about rape. Its like saying Rosa Parks should have moved on that bus because it would have been the safest thing to do. Rather than teach people to be racially tolerant you'd rather her just to keep moving off for white guys.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42443969]The so called "precautions" you can take to not get raped are common sense, like don't go into a dark alley at midnight, don't accept drinks from a total stranger, avoid violent gangs etc - there is no need to even call these precautions to getting raped because this is common sense for both men and women.[/QUOTE] I agree completely. But you know that by saying what you just did you've joined the club of misogynists who think that women deserve rape right? It doesn't matter how you call it. It's still reducing chances of getting hurt, which is for some reason frowned down upon on this site. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42443969]Rape can't be prevented by taking precautions, because most rape situations don't really involve these situations - they happen when and where you don't expect them.[/QUOTE] I agree completely. Nobody disputes that. And nobody's saying that taking precautions is going to fix the problem. [QUOTE=NoDachi;42443989]I just think you have a warped attitude about rape. Its like saying Rosa Parks should have moved on that bus because it would have been the safest thing to do. Rather than teach people to be racially tolerant you'd rather her just to keep moving off for white guys.[/QUOTE] Taking precautions against getting hurt isn't surrendering to it and accepting it. Do you lock your doors at night? Oh so you think that burglary is okay then? See how stupid this is? Can't you take precautions AND fight against rape culture? Are those mutually exclusive?

how do women ~lock their doors~ [editline]7th October 2013[/editline] I await the day when you stop throwing ~precautions~ around like a meaningless buzzword to divert attention away from the real problem

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42444080]how do women ~lock their doors~[/QUOTE] Sigh. You realize we're not talking about all rapes right? Only about those that are done by strangers? Follow MrJazzy's advice on common sense. [editline]7th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=NoDachi;42444080]I await the day when you stop throwing ~precautions~ around like a meaningless buzzword to divert attention away from the real problem[/QUOTE] I await the day when you stop thinking that taking precautions when it's possible is not mutually exclusive with fighting the real problem.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42444114]Follow MrJazzy's advice on common sense.[/QUOTE] Read his whole post because you might realize he's calling you out for being dumb about all this. Like you are in every thread about rape.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42444028]I agree completely. But you know that by saying what you just did you've joined the club of misogynists who think that women deserve rape right? It doesn't matter how you call it. It's still reducing chances of getting hurt, which is for some reason frowned down upon on this site.[/quote] Sorry but how did I just imply women deserve rape? [quote]I agree completely. Nobody disputes that. And nobody's saying that taking precautions is going to fix the problem.[/quote] Then why even take it up if it doesn't help the problem? "Because while it doesn't fix the problem, it helps" - okay, again why even take it up if you agree that it's already common sense then? [quote]Taking precautions against getting hurt isn't surrendering to it and accepting it. Do you lock your doors at night? Oh so you think that burglary is okay then? See how stupid this is? Can't you take precautions AND fight against rape culture? Are those mutually exclusive?[/QUOTE] We lock our doors at night because it's an active obstacle for the burglar - and it's a reliable precaution that works, the same can't be said about your precautions. [editline]7th October 2013[/editline] It's like you're arguing that avoiding going out naked shouting "RAPE ME" is a precaution. It's common sense and it does not need to be brought up in a discussion about rape, it's irrelevent.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;42444138]Read his whole post because you might realize he's calling you out for being dumb about all this. Like you are in every thread about rape.[/QUOTE] Except he said what I've been saying for a long time, he just called it common sense and not precautions. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444145]Sorry but how did I just imply women deserve rape?[/QUOTE] The fuck do I know? I've been saying the same thing for some time and I've been called out on how I think that women deserve to get raped every time. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444145]Then why even take it up if it's not a problem? "Because while it doesn't fix the problem, it helps" - okay, again why even take it up if you agree that it's already common sense then?[/QUOTE] Well yes that's the point. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just supposed to help. Same way car alarms don't make stealing cars go away. And it's taken up because for some reason there are people who argue against taking precautions, or common sense as you've put it. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444145]We lock our doors at night because it's an active obstacle for the burglar - and it's a reliable precaution that works, the same can't be said about your precautions.[/QUOTE] Not getting shitfaced with strangers isn't an obstacle of getting taken advantage of when drunk? You can't be taken advantage of that easily if you're sober. And it's just as much reliable as locking your door. Locking your door doesn't make you 100% safe from getting robbed either. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444145]It's like you're arguing that avoiding going out naked shouting "RAPE ME" is a precaution. It's common sense and it does not need to be brought up in a discussion about rape, it's irrelevent.[/QUOTE] Stop with the strawmen. There are people who argue against what you called common sense. For instance they argue against people who oppose getting shitfaced with strangers. That's why it's brought up. I think it's fucking sick that people argue against taking personal safety.

Again the problem with taking precautions against rape implies that you have to go around considering the fact that you could get raped at any time and therefor be actively careful about it all the time. This is basically what people mean when they say you're putting the responsibility on to the victim.

I don't get these arguments, because it's really a mixed bag of factors that need to be addressed. Of course I lock my door, because I don't want to get robbed, but we all agree it would be nice if no one needed to steal anymore. However, people will always need to steal in the foreseeable future, just like everyone needs to fulfill sexual needs.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42444227]Well yes that's the point. It's not a fix to the problem. It's just supposed to help. Same way car alarms don't make stealing cars go away. And it's taken up because for some reason there are people who argue against taking precautions, or common sense as you've put it.[/quote] But nobody is arguing against the fact that you shouldn't go into dark alleys in the middle of the night alone, because women don't do that - See, that's a precaution or "common sense" that is being taken, but it turns out that women are still being raped. So what do we deduce? That it's irrelevent. [quote]Not getting shitfaced with strangers isn't an obstacle of getting taken advantage of when drunk? You can't be taken advantage of that easily if you're sober.[/QUOTE] Who even does this anyway? You know what another precaution they could take is? Not to leave the house, that's a really good one actually cause it's almost guranteed to remove the chance of getting raped.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444236]Again the problem with taking precautions against rape implies that you have to go around considering the fact that you could get raped at any time and therefor be actively careful about it all the time. This is basically what people mean when they say you're putting the responsibility on to the victim.[/QUOTE] You can't take precautions against all rapes since most of them are done by people that you wouldn't suspect. Nobody is making that argument. There's only argument about common sense and not putting yourself in danger. Which is referred to as "taking precautions" but that's the same thing.

[QUOTE=Glitchman;42444263] However, people will always need to steal in the foreseeable future, just like everyone needs to fulfill sexual needs.[/QUOTE] Comparing rape to theft is bullshit on a lot of levels. You can steal in order to fulfill your needs for cash for rent or fodder, but sex isn't a need on the same level as food or warmth. It's one of the ways rape is special - it's one of the few crimes that can't be justified no matter how you look at it.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42444292]You can't take precautions against all rapes since most of them are done by people that you wouldn't suspect. Nobody is making that argument. There's only argument about common sense and not putting yourself in danger. Which is referred to as "taking precautions" but that's the same thing.[/QUOTE] No it's not. Common sense is common sense and precautions are actions you take when you expect there is a risk of something happening. You don't go around expecting to be raped all the time, and nor should you.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42444325]it's one of the few crimes that can be justified no matter how you look at it.[/QUOTE] Is that supposed to be "can't"?

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444286]But nobody is arguing against the fact that you shouldn't go into dark alleys in the middle of the night alone, because women don't do that[/QUOTE] What? There's an argument made that women should that precautions and be mindful of their safety (including not going into dark alleys in the middle of the night alone). And then they get flamed for thinking that women deserve rape and what not. This thread alone is full of it. This is basically what TF and me are saying. Just use common sense and avoid dangerous situations. What the hell do you people disagree with? Again nobody's saying it's going to make rapes disappear. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444286]See, that's a precaution or "common sense" that is being taken, but it turns out that women are still being raped. So what do we deduce? That it's irrelevent.[/QUOTE] People lock their doors and burglary still happens. So what do we deduce? That it's irrelevent. Murder is illegal but it still happens. So what do we deduce? That it's irrelevent. I'm sorry but that's just stupid. What you're saying would make sense if it was supposed to be a fix to the problem. It isn't. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444286]Who even does this anyway? You know what another precaution they could take is? Not to leave the house, that's a really good one actually cause it's almost guranteed to remove the chance of getting raped.[/QUOTE] Stop with the strawmen already. Common sense and not putting yourself in danger is an obstacle to people who would take advantage of you. You advocated that yourself. Why do you disagree now? [QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444329]No it's not. Common sense is common sense and precautions are actions you take when you expect there is a risk of something happening. You don't go around expecting to be raped all the time, and nor should you.[/QUOTE] But you said avoiding dark alleys alone at the middle of the night is common sense. Why do you avoid them? Isn't it because you expect to get hurt if you don't? And men who just wait to take advantage of a drunk girl at a club is a danger you can expect. Stop ignoring this.

[QUOTE=Patriarch;42444417]Is that supposed to be "can't"?[/QUOTE] Yes. My bad. Although there's a few bitter jokes that could be made as well.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42441505]I'm just going link this guy because he says how moronic this is far more eloquently than I could. [url]http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/10/06/more-formulaic-bullshit-from-thunderf00t/[/url][/QUOTE] "So, I wonder, what is the hardhat equivalent for women’s behavior? What are they supposed to wear or do to protect themselves? Be specific. A construction site has specific risks — heavy falling objects — and a straightforward defensive measure — wearing a hardhat — to address the risks. Every woman in the world would love to know what simple defensive measure they can take to prevent all forms of rape." Maybe minimizing the chance of rape is not as simple as wearing a hard-hat, but there are still ways, some of which are more or less common sense, which is EXACTLY what Thunder-dude tried to say.

Even just watching the intro of this video shows that Thunderfoot is an asshole with a superiority complex. [B]Edit:[/B] The way he also talks about feminists and bashes them in this video shows that he isn't doing this for any good reasons, if he was he would try to compromise with their viewpoint.

Be Careful is not something you put on your head.. although Being Careful may or may not include wearing something on your head.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42444418]What? There's an argument made that women should that precautions and be mindful of their safety (including not going into dark alleys in the middle of the night alone). And then they get flamed for thinking that women deserve rape and what not. This thread alone is full of it. This is basically what TF and me are saying. Just use common sense and avoid dangerous situations. What the hell do you people disagree with? Again nobody's saying it's going to make rapes disappear.[/quote] But you make it sound as if though women should go around considering the fact that they could get raped right now and take precautions for it, that's putting the responsibility on the woman. [quote]People lock their doors and burglary still happens. So what do we deduce? That it's irrelevent. Murder is illegal but it still happens. So what do we deduce? That it's irrelevent. I'm sorry but that's just stupid. What you're saying would make sense if it was supposed to be a fix to the problem. It isn't.[/quote] I'd say if we were discussing burglary and not rape, then yeah telling people to lock their doors is pretty irrelevent cause it's common sense. [quote]Stop with the strawmen already. Common sense and not putting yourself in danger is an obstacle to people who would take advantage of you. You advocated that yourself. Why do you disagree now?[/quote] I don't, I just don't think "taking precautions" isn't a solution at all, because rape is still a big problem even with these precautions, so that's not where we should focus our effort. [quote]But you said avoiding dark alleys alone at the middle of the night is common sense. Why do you avoid them? Isn't it because you expect to get hurt if you don't?[/QUOTE] As far as I know most rapes don't take place in dark alleys in the middle of the night, so I just think that "precaution" is irrelevent.

Also another thing which he tried to say is that, even if you took "all" the preventive methods of being raped, it doesn't mean you are suddenly not being able to be raped.

[QUOTE=Bat-shit;42444453]"So, I wonder, what is the hardhat equivalent for women’s behavior? What are they supposed to wear or do to protect themselves? Be specific. A construction site has specific risks — heavy falling objects — and a straightforward defensive measure — wearing a hardhat — to address the risks. Every woman in the world would love to know what simple defensive measure they can take to prevent all forms of rape." Maybe minimizing the chance of rape is not as simple as wearing a hard-hat, but there are still ways, some of which are more or less common sense, which is EXACTLY what Thunder-dude tried to say.[/QUOTE] Except to extend the hard hat metaphor, you can put up plywood roofs over the sidewalk to keep stuff from falling on passerby (better law enforcement and societal response) and you can train the workers to not toss shit off the building (the don't be that guy campaign and similar).

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42444445]Yes. My bad. Although there's a few bitter jokes that could be made as well.[/QUOTE] One can easily "justify" rape if you consider it the product of factors like sexual repression, failure with your desired sex, the culture you were brought up in (Looking at India here), or past sexual abuses. Not in the sense that it is right, but that given the situation, it's the only likely outcome.