Of course rape isn't isn't the victim's fault but there are ways to tempt fate. You could leave an expensive camera in your car with the door open or course there will be someone who will take it, you can't assume everyone will just be better due to education or a culture change, that will take generations and generations and huge changes in society.
and if you're if you sick of these comparisons, fine. You could bluntly say "if you leave your tits out most people won't try to rape you but there will always be someone that will" So, if you don't leave your camer-- I mean, tits out, than you reduce your risk. It's shitty it has to be that way, and I don't care at all how women dress or even judge them, but they have to know the risks involved with being sexually desirable. Sure, as a society we need to move forward, but as of right now you honestly do have a greater chance of being a victim if you're not aware of the signals you give off.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42444498]Except to extend the hard hat metaphor, you can put up plywood roofs over the sidewalk to keep stuff from falling on passerby (better law enforcement and societal response) and you can train the workers to not toss shit off the building (the don't be that guy campaign and similar).[/QUOTE]
Yes..? You just basically presented two other ways to prevent shit from falling on your head, along with the hard-hat.
Same with rape, you can take more or less preventive methods. Just your geographical location is one factor you COULD consider if you want to ABSOLUTELY MINIMIZE chances of being raped.
No one should have to be worried about rape though, that's where we NEED to go as a society, but we aren't there yet, so you still have to be careful.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444485]But you make it sound as if though women should go around considering the fact that they could get raped right now and take precautions for it, that's putting the responsibility on the woman.[/QUOTE]
Not always. Only when it's conceivable within reason. I don't spend my entire day thinking about getting mugged, but when I'm in a situation where it's more likely I take precautions against that.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444485]I'd say if we were discussing burglary and not rape, then yeah telling people to lock their doors is pretty irrelevent cause it's common sense.[/QUOTE]
Yes! And so is doing the things I listed as "precautions". It's just common sense to do these things. And frankly I don't see why anyone would disagree.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444485]I don't, I just don't think "taking precautions" isn't a solution at all, because rape is still a big problem even with these precautions, so that's not where we should focus our effort.[/QUOTE]
I agree completely. Taking precautions shouldn't be the focus, that should be something that you do automatically and while we do that we should be focusing on the actual problem.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444485]As far as I know most rapes don't take place in dark alleys in the middle of the night, so I just think that "precaution" is irrelevent.[/QUOTE]
It's irrelevant to the problem as a whole since it's not fixing it. It's not irrelevant to the person who might do that. Again, nobody is arguing that taking precautions is going to stop rapes. Just please stop arguing based on that assumption.
[editline]7th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glitchman;42444597]No one should have to be worried about rape though, that's where we NEED to go as a society, but we aren't there yet, so you still have to be careful.[/QUOTE]
Couldn't have said that better.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42444606]Not always. Only when it's conceivable within reason. I don't spend my entire day thinking about getting mugged, but when I'm in a situation where it's more likely I take precautions against that.
Yes! And so is doing the things I listed as "precautions". It's just common sense to do these things. And frankly I don't see why anyone would disagree.
I agree completely. Taking precautions shouldn't be the focus, that should be something that you do automatically and while we do that we should be focusing on the actual problem.
It's irrelevant to the problem as a whole since it's not fixing it. It's not irrelevant to the person who might do that. Again, nobody is arguing that taking precautions is going to stop rapes. Just please stop arguing based on that assumption.
[editline]7th October 2013[/editline]
Couldn't have said that better.[/QUOTE]
Why are we even arguing in the first place then, "precautions" should never be brought up when talking about rape - so don't do it.
Edit: Oh right, now I remember, you actually agree with the video in the OP :v:
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;42444556]Yes..? You just basically presented two other ways to prevent shit from falling on your head, along with the hard-hat.
Same with rape, you can take more or less preventive methods. Just your geographical location is one factor you COULD consider if you want to ABSOLUTELY MINIMIZE chances of being raped.[/QUOTE]
Except when more head injuries are due to things other than falling crap, hardhats - which are already routinely worn - don't do fucking shit, to overextend this metaphor.
-automerge damn ninja :v:-
Man, why do we [I]have[/I] to have a thread like this every week?
I want to have a somewhat educated opinion on the matter but both 'sides' in this debate seem to have their flaws and it's nearly impossible to boil them both down to something that's irrefutably right, from every perspective. I don't know man, I can get really annoyed by today's whiny kind of feminism but then again people in this thread make some valid points agains Thunderfoot's video. I honestly don't know what to think anymore.
[QUOTE=Larry_G;42444681]Man, why do we [I]have[/I] to have a thread like this every week?
I want to have a somewhat educated opinion on the matter but both 'sides' in this debate seem to have their flaws and it's nearly impossible to boil them both down to something that's irrefutably right, from every perspective. I don't know man, I can get really annoyed by today's whiny kind of feminism but then again people in this thread make some valid points agains Thunderfoot's video. I honestly don't know what to think anymore.[/QUOTE]
If you don't like the debate, either stop reading or join a side then.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;42444597]No one should have to be worried about rape though, that's where we NEED to go as a society, but we aren't there yet, so you still have to be careful.[/QUOTE]
Of course not, nor did I imply otherwise. And this could be said just about any crime.
[QUOTE=FPChris;42443864]"Teach people not to rape" is the most stupid thing I've ever heard.[/QUOTE]
I hate it too. Everybody in the west knows that rape is pretty evil. People just knowingly commit evil acts because they're assholes.
Maxes video was pretty great but advocating for taking precautions doesn't mean victim blaming. TF is not some Republican judge from North Carolina letting a rapist free because of his victims clothing.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42444717]I hate it too. Everybody in the west knows that rape is pretty evil. People just knowingly commit evil acts because they're assholes.[/quote]
I understand what you're saying but if you think it's cause they're just "evil assholes" then you don't understand the complexity of the situation.
[quote]Maxes video was pretty great but advocating for taking precautions doesn't mean victim blaming. TF is not some Republican judge from North Carolina letting a rapist free because of his victims clothing.[/QUOTE]
In TF's video he tells women how to dress and how to act to avoid getting raped, that's not "taking precautions", that's giving up the fight - I know that sounds strange but I don't know how to put it really, it's kind of like telling nerdy kids to stop wearing glasses and get less nerdy interests and saying they're precautions to being bullied... yeah in a really weird way it's true, but it's just unrealistic and putting the responsibilty where it doesn't belong.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444661]Why are we even arguing in the first place then, "precautions" should never be brought up when talking about rape - so don't do it.[/QUOTE]
Why not, especially when we live in a world where rape happens?
Also what are you even arguing? That men should simply not rape because it's wrong?
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;42444800]Also what are you even arguing? That.. men should simply not rape because it's wrong, and therefor women should not do anything about it? Can't say that I disagree, but can't say that I agree either.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that women are already doing far more than enough to avoid getting raped, and they still do get raped.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444839]I'm saying that women are already doing far more than enough to avoid getting raped, and they still do get raped.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that something that is more on a regional basis? I don't understand how you could ever come from a planet which has ~200 countries and 1000+ languages that "women are already doing far more than enough"--that seems like a huge oversimplification of how big mankind is.
Wouldn't you say that in a country/area that has a particularly high incidence of rape than people should take a far more proactive approach to their personal safety? likewise for areas which have high incidences of murder/mugging/theft?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444839]I'm saying that women are already doing far more than enough to avoid getting raped, and they still do get raped.[/QUOTE]
I actually said that too, that despite the efforts, there's always a risk.
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42444874]Isn't that something that is more on a regional basis? I don't understand how you could ever come from a planet which has ~200 countries and 1000+ languages that "women are already doing far more than enough"--that seems like a huge oversimplification of how big mankind is.
Wouldn't you say that in a country/area that has a particularly high incidence of rape than people should take a far more proactive approach to their personal safety? likewise for areas which have high incidences of murder/mugging/theft?[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty convinced that women in areas where rape is more usual take more "precautions" than women in areas where rape is less usual. I don't think the women who live in really shitty areas need to be told "Don't go there, you may get raped" by anyone, they probably already understand this.
Even less should they be told what to wear and how to use their body language :v:
[editline]7th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;42444884]I actually said that too, that despite the efforts, there's always a risk.[/QUOTE]
Right, but it sounds like you think you know more about the risks of getting raped then the women who are possible victims, I don't think so.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444895]I'm pretty convinced that women in areas where rape is more usual take more "precautions" than women in areas where rape is less usual.[/QUOTE]
But again, it is awfully presumptuous to just assume something that.
Especially in underdeveloped areas of the world where mass communication and things like street lighting aren't as likely to exist.
I think that there is some definite onus on the government educating potential victims with statistics and the like--and again, there is some level of responsibility that people themselves become educated when it comes to avoiding crime. Just like there are bad areas for robbery and drugs there are bad areas for rape.
[QUOTE=Cone;42442080]you know how rapists are universally kind of crazy?
well i kind of doubt that wearing a slightly less skimpy dress is really going to affect that[/QUOTE]
It's kinda sad, but it actually might. remember that many rapes aren't pre-planned things. But basically chance crimes more than anything else.
The truth is, in an ideal world, whatever you do shouldn't get you raped. The problem is we don't live in an ideal world.
Now there's two very important distinctions to make.
Prevention - take care what you do to a certain extent
Apologist - you should have known better before this happened.
The prevention is not in itself bad. It's why you have police advising women in school and other places on prevention. Why you have programs on self defense and many other things. The world is not ideal, so learn to defend.
But that's a completely different line of reasoning compared to blaming the victim. And I do like his argument with the muslims compared to normal advice. Some advice is just extreme to a level that it's worse than the crime it might try to prevent.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444895]Right, but it sounds like you think you know more about the risks of getting raped then the women who are possible victims, I don't think so.[/QUOTE]
No I certainly don't, but I can imagine. I like to think I'm not too far from the truth, anyway..
Also, as obvious, this isn't exact science, so I'd say there is no definite answer.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42444717]I hate it too. Everybody in the west knows that rape is pretty evil. People just knowingly commit evil acts because they're assholes.[/QUOTE]
you know the problem is with people not understanding consent right? it's not like some dumb brodude at a party knows having sex with a drunk lady is rape and does it anyway because brodudes are evil, it's because the concept of consent isn't made as explicit as it could be. so they don't think it through properly and someone ends up a rape victim.
THAT is teaching not to rape. you've got problems if you're immediately assuming that it's some retarded feel-good feminazi measure against burgeoning rapists
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42444933]But again, it is awfully presumptuous to just assume something that.
Especially in underdeveloped areas of the world where mass communication and things like street lighting aren't as likely to exist.
I think that there is some definite onus on the government educating potential victims with [B]statistics and the like[/B]--and again, there is some level of responsibility that people themselves become educated when it comes to avoiding crime. Just like there are bad areas for robbery and drugs there are bad areas for rape.[/QUOTE]
What statistics are you talking about? The statistic that says clothing has nothing to do with wether you're raped or not?
His rant on clothing seems somewhat justified.
Clothing leaves impressions on people, its why we get in our finest suits for those job interviews. So why wouldn't exposing clothing leave impressions on certain guys? There are people out there, unfortunately, who believe that women who wear exposed clothing are "up for it" and yes, that is plain wrong. But unfortunately we don't know who these people are unless they're convicted felons so whats the next best thing? Remove a contributing factor, change the clothing.
As TF said this makes feminists upset "Don't tell me to change my clothes! Tell them to stop raping!" I'm sure we definitely would if we actually knew who had this horrible mindset and the women are right, the way they dress doesn't mean they're "asking for it" but unfortunately other people may think they are. While writing this I would definitely say that telling people to change such an important part of your lifestyle like the way you dress in an unfair compromise but I don't see it being worth running the risk and at that I still believe its an EXTREMELY small factor of a HUGE picture that stems into culture, psychology and environment.
I personally think it's pretty messed up that according to you girls should have to consider the likelyhood of them getting raped when picking outfits.
I reduced my chances of getting raped, but I still got killed and eaten in the wild.
Yes, its an absolutely horrible thing. I think its messed up that there are people in society that believe that clothing can leave certain impressions on people and I think its pretty messed up that it [I]may[/I] be a factor. But there needs to be a proper study done by properly qualified individuals. I don't want to be the bad guy, I think these entire scenarios are absolutely horrible but if we don't know who these people are then we need to help by helping ourselves. I would love nothing more than to be wrong, I might even be but this really does rely on whether one small thing in an extremely large complicated psychological picture is actually relevant and I'd really like it if it wasn't but... I just don't feel that way so the next best thing would to take precautions and I acknowledge how [B]immensely[/B] unfair that is.
[QUOTE=Sadim;42445745]Yes, its an absolutely horrible thing. I think its messed up that there are people in society that believe that clothing can leave certain impressions on people and I think its pretty messed up that it [I]may[/I] be a factor. But there needs to be a proper study done by properly qualified individuals. I don't want to be the bad guy, I think these entire scenarios are absolutely horrible but if we don't know who these people are then we need to help by helping ourselves. I would love nothing more than to be wrong, I might even be but this really does rely on whether one small thing in an extremely large complicated psychological picture is actually relevant and I'd really like it if it wasn't but... I just don't feel that way so the next best thing would to take precautions and I acknowledge how [B]immensely[/B] unfair that is.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42443302][URL="http://www.consented.ca/myths/provocative-clothing-is-a-risk-factor/"]It doesn't[/URL] — that's the best part about those so-called precautions.[/QUOTE]
I looked at the article and they bring up good points. I know that wearing exposed clothing isn't "asking for it" and they're right about beaches, pools, and fashion shows being out of control if clothing was a factor but my one peeve is that those places they named are usually populated and public places where thankfully, sexual assault would be impossible. I also mean a study done by looking at cases, people who's profession is human psychology and sociology or something along those lines, I know they have experience and some of their writers even have qualifications in psychology but they don't pull up any evidence, no investigations and there is no way in telling who specifically wrote that article out of the 11 contributors.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42442705]for a guy who prides himself on logic & reason & rational thinking, this video is missing so much of it that it actually got me to record a little rant. gonna put it up soon[/QUOTE]
for the love of fucking god spare us
[QUOTE=Sadim;42445864]I looked at the article and they bring up good points. I know that wearing exposed clothing isn't "asking for it" and they're right about beaches, pools, and fashion shows being out of control if clothing was a factor but my one peeve is that those places they named are usually populated and public places where thankfully, sexual assault would be impossible. I also mean a study done by looking at cases, people who's profession is human psychology and sociology or something along those lines, I know they have experience and some of their writers even have qualifications in psychology but they don't pull up any evidence, no investigations and there is no way in telling who specifically wrote that article out of the 11 contributors.[/QUOTE]
I get what you're saying but there is a pretty big difference between how a CEO looks at a potential employee and considering his outfit, to how rapists think. To make a connection, while not totally unthinkable just seems too far fetched to me to really believe without any studies or statistics saying otherwise.
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