Its a minor thing, I'm sure in this day and age when it comes to employment they care whats on the paper than whats on your shoulders. If anything I'd say its a small thing... Employers may look at you in better regard if you came to an interview in a pressed rather than a tracksuit but yeah. Dressing for employment, wearing exposed clothing? Its definitely an extremely small factor.
.
This is stupid, so completely stupid. Even if every women took this bloke's advice and began to dress more conservatively, the mentally ill rapist in question would still rape someone. For his theory to be in any way eligible, it would mean there would have to be a fraction of females that constantly wear skimpy clothing, in order to make it worthwhile for the girls who decide not to.
[QUOTE=NoaJM;42441949]For the people who disagree with Thunder, why is it 'rape apologist' to suggest precautions? I mean, I'm genuinely asking this, I'm not trying to take the piss out of anyone. I don't understand the logic at all.[/QUOTE]
Taking submissive defense to an aggressive problem that predominantly targets one gender. It's arguable that one of the very purposes of rape is a subconscious or literal effort to demean women and rob them of dignity; what better way to demean a woman and rob her of dignity then to tell her to her face to change the way she dresses just to *hopefully* avoid [I]somebody else[/I] making the decision to rape them? Being told to change your attire and/or way of life to avoid getting raped by other people, is inherently condescending.
[QUOTE=Cone;42442080]you know how rapists are universally kind of crazy?
well i kind of doubt that wearing a slightly less skimpy dress is really going to affect that[/QUOTE]
This as well.
Yes yes good idea. Use feminist in the title of an anything on facepunch. This will bring about quality debate and people open to opinions.
His theory might have some logic to it but his points are crap. Yes rapists will always rape and you can't control that. If someone wants to abuse you they'll do it.
The whole point of how to dress etc. is shit. People can dress however they wan't and shorts that are an inch shorter than others aren't going to make someone more inclined to assault you. I wear a mankini to the bars and women never rape me. Clothes are inert no matter what sex you are.
However things like intoxication increasing your chances are sort of true. No, I'm not being sexist about this. It's a general thing for both sexes. Getting krunk without backup is a shit idea, man or woman. Bring a DD or some shit to bail you out before you do something you'll regret.
[QUOTE=Cone;42442367]there are far too many people that would have sex with an intoxicated person. this number needs to be brought down, and the best way to do that is to teach them about the line between sex and rape - the only thing separating you from having sex with someone who can't properly consent is how much you know about the concept of consent.[/QUOTE]
A thread not to long ago right here on facepunch had quite a few people saying that a sober person having sex with an intoxicated person wasn't rape.
It was kinda crazy.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42447715]A thread not to long ago right here on facepunch had quite a few people saying that a sober person having sex with an intoxicated person wasn't rape.
It was kinda crazy.[/QUOTE]
I could maybe understand it if the person isn't so intoxicated that they can't make a decision safely at all. After all, intoxication isn't a binary thing, you can be "a little bit drunk", or "totally fucked", or anything in between.
But someone sober having sex with someone who is clearly quite past it is still pretty damn rapey.
While I do agree with thunders video I think there's much better things you can do to reduce the chances of rape then wearing different clothing, which will make little to no difference.
For example having a friend with you when you walk home from a party or arranging to get a lift home.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42443168][video=youtube;KC6OdlgxsNI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC6OdlgxsNI[/video]
here's my unstructured reply to a video that nearly gave me brain cancer from how stupid it is[/QUOTE]
I absolutely agree with you, thank you for making that. I was discussing this with someone I know, but I wasn't able to word it as nicely as you. Good job!
He made that point at the end of his video, do you even bother to watch?
He said that you should take precautions to minimize your chances of being raped, even tho there's still a chance that you can get raped you should still take some precautions to minimize your chances of being raped, not take EXTREME precautions like wearing a burqa or barricading your walls.
you need to take the kind of precautions that won't affect the quality of your life in a major way.
You're basically saying that doing that is victim blaming.
Maybe I'm just unable to grasp this, hopefully tf responds to you.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42445349]What statistics are you talking about? The statistic that says clothing has nothing to do with wether you're raped or not?[/QUOTE]
More to do with regional/area specific statistics as my entire reply was basically talking about.
IMHO precautions have more to do with avoiding places/situations than what you wear--in which case potential victims should educate themselves.
Your (seeming) argument that potential victims can do nothing at all to make themselves less likely to fall victim to crime is preposterous; whether that comes down to clothing, behavior or remaining vigilant, it likely does a lot to deter crime in some situations.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Valnar;42447715]A thread not to long ago right here on facepunch had quite a few people saying that a sober person having sex with an intoxicated person wasn't rape.
It was kinda crazy.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying rape has some definition other than "forceful penetration"?
Dropping black and white terms into grey situations doesn't make a black and white answer just because you want it to.
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42450136]
So you're saying rape has some definition other than "forceful penetration"?
Dropping black and white terms into grey situations doesn't make a black and white answer just because you want it to.[/QUOTE]
You do know that in most places an intoxicated person can't consent to sex right?
Regardless of the legality, in the vast majority of situations a sober person having sex with an intoxicated person is really predatory. They are taking advantage of the other person's weakened state of mind.
[QUOTE=Cone;42442080]you know how rapists are universally kind of crazy?
well i kind of doubt that wearing a slightly less skimpy dress is really going to affect that[/QUOTE]
first of all...most rapes are alcohol or substance related.... second he's saying control the factors that you can.... say for instance you go to a party, dont get wasted and pass out on someone's sofa or bed and expect them to respect you because they themselves might not be in control of their actions, this leads to even nastier court battles over who consented or not, what he is saying is just don't get in the situation where you loose control of yourself if you can avoid it, chances are more likely that you won't be raped if you are in control vs being completely out of control
[QUOTE=Valnar;42450246]You do know that in most places an intoxicated person can't consent to sex right?
Regardless of the legality, in the vast majority of situations a sober person having sex with an intoxicated person is really predatory. They are taking advantage of the other person's weakened state of mind.[/QUOTE]
Again 'intoxicated' is a huge scale; anyone even at 0.01 BAC is intoxicated.
Being intoxicated doesn't excuse people from drunk driving or getting into fights--Being intoxicated is a personal decision, if you leave yourself heavily intoxicated while around strangers then you're putting yourself into these situations.
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42450284]Again 'intoxicated' is a huge scale; anyone even at 0.01 BAC is intoxicated.[/QUOTE]
You're being purposefully obtuse.
[Quote]Being intoxicated doesn't excuse people from drunk driving or getting into fights[/Quote]
Drunk driving is something that the intoxicated person does to someone else
Rape is something that happens to the intoxicated person.
Also, committing a crime while intoxicated generally gets you a less severe sentence then committing that same crime while sober.
[Quote]--Being intoxicated is a personal decision, if you leave yourself heavily intoxicated while around strangers then you're putting yourself into these situations.[/QUOTE]
You are really victim blaming here, you're saying that it is the victim's fault for getting raped.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42450420]Sorry. I love playing devil's advocate: What if a girl gets HERSELF drunk with no outside pressure and consents to sex at that point?[/QUOTE]
Depending on how drunk she is that can still be rape. When you are past a certain point you legally cannot consent, whether you did it to yourself or not.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42450398]You're being purposefully obtuse.
Drunk driving is something that the intoxicated person does to someone else
[/QUOTE]
Drunk driving can be something that just happens to the person driving and doesn't necessarily involve anyone else. I know that personally.
Its the same as operating any machinery or vehicle while drunk, you could cause injury to yourself and/or to others.
[QUOTE]Rape is something that happens to the intoxicated person.[/QUOTE]
Again, you don't get to call it rape because its convenient or because some certain conditions have been met. Rape is forceful penetration. If a slightly drunk woman consents to sex with a sober man (or vice versa) then it isn't rape.
[QUOTE]Also, committing a crime while intoxicated generally gets you a less severe sentence then committing that same crime while sober.[/QUOTE]
That is only because a drunk driver usually 'accidentally' kills others whereas a sober driver would most likely have to maliciously kill others.
[QUOTE]You are really victim blaming here, you're saying that it is the victim's fault for getting raped.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, I'm pretty sure what I said was this:
[I]"Being intoxicated is a personal decision, if you leave yourself heavily intoxicated while around strangers then you're putting yourself into these situations."[/I]
Are you trying to argue that being intoxicated is not a personal decision?
Or that being heavily intoxicated around strangers is a smart idea?
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42450420]Sorry. I love playing devil's advocate: What if a girl gets HERSELF drunk with no outside pressure and consents to sex at that point?[/QUOTE]
You're situation is kinda vague. First of all, as said earlier a drunk person can't consent.
But I'll assume, for the sake of argument, that by consent you meant that she decided to have sex while sober, and I'll assume that the partner is sober since that is what is relevant to the discussion.
Unless she had communicated to her partner while sober, that partner is putting themselves at risk because they don't know if she would have had sex with them while she was sober.
If in the morning the girl doesn't feel like it was rape than it wasn't rape, but its still really shitty that the partner was willing to have sex with a drunk person in that sort of situation.
But the essential part here is that the [U]partner didn't know[/U].
[QUOTE=gudman;42442920]Crime [b]fucking is[/b] natural part of the society. Like it or not, but there's no way to stop crime from happening at all. If you think there is, you're daydreaming at best.[/QUOTE]
People like you with dumb passive/accepting attitudes about it are part of the problem.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42450465]
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, I'm pretty sure what I said was this:
[I]"Being intoxicated is a personal decision, if you leave yourself heavily intoxicated while around strangers then you're putting yourself into these situations."[/I]
Are you trying to argue that being intoxicated is not a personal decision?
Or that being heavily intoxicated around strangers is a smart idea?[/QUOTE]
By saying it, you're implying that being raped is somehow "less bad" if you "bring it upon yourself". Rape by definition cannot be brought upon oneself, it is by definition forced upon someone. You're effectively twisting the definition of rape and (perhaps unwittingly) justifying rape as somehow "more acceptable" in certain situations.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42450501]You're situation is kinda vague. First of all, as said earlier a drunk person can't consent.
But I'll assume, for the sake of argument, that by consent you meant that she decided to have sex while sober, and I'll assume that the partner is sober since that is what is relevant to the discussion.
Unless she had communicated to her partner while sober, that partner is putting themselves at risk because they don't know if she would have had sex with them while she was sober.
If in the morning the girl doesn't feel like it was rape than it wasn't rape, but its still really shitty that the partner was willing to have sex with a drunk person in that sort of situation.
But the essential part here is that the [U]partner didn't know[/U].[/QUOTE]
You're taking gray and trying to make black and white.
0.01 BAC doesn't mean you cannot consent. There is a whole range of of the word 'intoxication' that can be reached before someone becomes incapable of consenting.
From what I read on the subject legally speaking:
[I][QUOTE]"However, where the complainant has voluntarily consumed even substantial quantities of alcohol, but nevertheless remains capable of choosing whether or not to have intercourse, and in drink agrees to do so, this would not be rape," he said.[/QUOTE][/I] ( [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1546789/Drunk-women-can-consent-to-sex-judges-rule.html"]source[/URL] )
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=BLOODGA$M;42450521]By saying it, you're implying that being raped is somehow "less bad" if you "bring it upon yourself". Rape by definition cannot be brought upon oneself, it is by definition forced upon someone. You're effectively twisting the definition of rape and (perhaps unwittingly) justifying rape as somehow "acceptable" in certain situations.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it does anything to the perpetrators of these crimes at all, and in a perfect world they would be persecuted just as heavily (if not heavier for praying upon intoxicated people).
However, by being intoxicated or being around intoxicated people you are subjecting yourself to an environment where decision making is impaired and violence is increased. In the case that something does happen, you are also subjecting yourself to a lot of 'grey' when it comes to the police etc.
He said, she said would only become more complicated if one or both of those were heavily intoxicated at the time.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42444661]Why are we even arguing in the first place then, "precautions" should never be brought up when talking about rape - so don't do it.
Edit: Oh right, now I remember, you actually agree with the video in the OP :v:[/QUOTE]
Because you should do that automatically. It's common sense to do these things. You said that yourself that everybody should do that. It's not supposed to be a fix to the problem and make rapes go away. It's not supposed to be the focus either. It's just "use common sense and don't put yourself in danger" broken down to details. Both TF and my point is just like yours. I don't understand what are you disagreeing with.
[QUOTE=Cone;42442080]you know how rapists are universally kind of crazy?
well i kind of doubt that wearing a slightly less skimpy dress is really going to affect that[/QUOTE]
I have to find the source but it makes you more likely to be raped because in the rapists eyes less clothes = more confident = more likely to make a stink.
The real issue here isn't really about rape anyways. It's mostly that the majority of our society lacks the resiliency to look at facts and lets emotions drive their thought processes and ultimately their actions. There may or may not be 'precautions' that can be taken, but it's a moot point; regardless, it's never the victims fault. And if more victims had resiliency, it would be easier for them to see that. Hopefully, this would lead to more victims going to the police and actually getting shit done about catching more of these assholes, which may prevent a rape in the future.
It also addresses the feminist; if they were to not take so much offence to a statement someone makes, and spew out emotionally-charged garbage, perhaps they could think through and submit more reasonable arguments and they could actually forward their agenda. But because they often let their emotions take command the majority of outsiders see a bunch of women kicking and screaming because they aren't getting what they want.
It would just be nice if people would in general chill out and think reasonably.
Not letting emotion take control is one of the many facets of life that the privileged enjoy. I see too many calm fedora wearing MRA's calmly telling a rightfully angry feminist to "calm down". Calm is a privilege for those who need not let the issues affect them emotionally.
I get emotional over women's rights all the time, but I know what I worry about is only a speck of a fraction of what a women has to worry about every day. My worry is nothing compared to theirs, so of course I can keep calm while debating these issues.
I don't get Max's slippery slope argument about precautions.
Obviously clothing and behavior are not a really a factor in rapes but warning someone of a dangerous area is only advantageous and not making them "live in fear" or "not live life"
If a rapist is using a taxi to assault women then why would telling women to be careful of taxis do anything but put them in less danger.
Obviously this information is intended for people before rape and never as a told you so post rape thing.
Sorry if I misunderstood your point Max but people seem to be grouping "don't dress slutty" in with "there's a rapist in that house don't go there"
[QUOTE=Cone;42442080]you know how rapists are universally kind of crazy?
well i kind of doubt that wearing a slightly less skimpy dress is really going to affect that[/QUOTE]
This isnt just applying to the type of crazy rapists but all in general (guys who abuse alcohol and other pressuring methods to have sex, for example)
[QUOTE=benwaddi;42452440]I don't get Max's slippery slope argument about precautions.
Obviously clothing and behavior are not a really a factor in rapes but warning someone of a dangerous area is only advantageous and not making them "live in fear" or "not live life"
If a rapist is using a taxi to assault women then why would telling women to be careful of taxis do anything but put them in less danger.
Obviously this information is intended for people before rape and never as a told you so post rape thing.
Sorry if I misunderstood your point Max but people seem to be grouping "don't dress slutty" in with "there's a rapist in that house don't go there"[/QUOTE]
How exactly is behavior not a factor in rapes?
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42452894]How exactly is behavior not a factor in rapes?[/QUOTE]
I mean telling people not to flirt or show certain body language. That applies more to bars and clubs obviously where when alcohol is involved some people take flirting to mean everything is OK or if someone was flirting and passes out they are fair game. That's where teaching people what is and isn't allowed is more beneficial.
Molesting a passed out or very drunk person = always bad.
Flirting with someone = Never bad.
Edit: Factor wasn't the right word, but behavior of the survivor isn't the area that needs addressing.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;42452440]I don't get Max's slippery slope argument about precautions.
Obviously clothing and behavior are not a really a factor in rapes but warning someone of a dangerous area is only advantageous and not making them "live in fear" or "not live life"
If a rapist is using a taxi to assault women then why would telling women to be careful of taxis do anything but put them in less danger.
Obviously this information is intended for people before rape and never as a told you so post rape thing.
Sorry if I misunderstood your point Max but people seem to be grouping "don't dress slutty" in with "there's a rapist in that house don't go there"[/QUOTE]
I think the major misunderstanding is that the issue is not about violent rape that takes form in women being attacked by stranger in the middle of the night. We're talking about rape as in sex where not everybody wants to have sex - just cause the girl isn't screaming and fighting doesn't mean it's okay. How exactly do you take precautions to these kind of rapes? It's not like a girl expect to get raped when she drinks.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42453674]I think the major misunderstanding is that the issue is not about violent rape that takes form in women being attacked by stranger in the middle of the night. We're talking about rape as in sex where not everybody wants to have sex - just cause the girl isn't screaming and fighting doesn't mean it's okay. How exactly do you take precautions to these kind of rapes? It's not like a girl expect to get raped when she drinks.[/QUOTE]
We're on the same page then, what I was talking about was purely to combat violent rape and not what you described.
Campaigns telling men what is and is not consent are what is becoming more and more common here in Britain and it seems to be having the desired effect in either the person realising what they are doing is not cool or their friends interfering to make sure everything is OK.
Love to know why Jeep-eep rating spammed those posts dumb though, I fucking agreed with his points.
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