[quote]Flirting with someone = Never bad.[/quote]
The difference between sexual harassment and flirting is whether the person being flirted with is interested.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42453871]The difference between sexual harassment and flirting is whether the person being flirted with is interested.[/QUOTE]
If I said flirting, and sexual harassment is the lack of interest, then would common sense not dictate I'm talking about both parties being interested in the flirting.
If I wanted to mean flirting without interest from one side I would say sexual harassment but that would be daft.
I was just saying flirting/sexual harassment/whatever should [B]never[/B] be seen as permission to try and have sex with someone, be it the person saying it or the person on the receiving end of the comment.
Sorry for the poor wording.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;42453748]We're on the same page then, what I was talking about was purely to combat violent rape and not what you described.
Campaigns telling men what is and is not consent are what is becoming more and more common here in Britain and it seems to be having the desired effect in either the person realising what they are doing is not cool or their friends interfering to make sure everything is OK.
Love to know why Jeep-eep rating spammed those posts dumb though, I fucking agreed with his points.[/QUOTE]
I still think it's stupid to say that women should "take precautions" in a debate like this, ofcourse people are gonna assume you're actually implying something and not stating the obvious.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42452894]How exactly is behavior not a factor in rapes?[/QUOTE]
How is it?
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
The only way to effectively fight rape is to change society, not to tell anyone to take precautions cause that doesn't work, the reason why rape happens so much is cause people think the girl has to say no if it's not okay.
People should look for signs that the person doesn't want to have sex rather than look for signs that say the person does. Unfortunately this is not the case. Because as it is today people think "Oh, this girl made out with me, obviously she wants to have sex".
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42454342]
How is it?
So you're saying people behaving carelessly or recklessly would have absolutely no affect on their personal safety?
So if someone drinks far more alcohol than they can handle or takes drugs without people they trust being nearby they are being smart?
[QUOTE]The only way to effectively fight rape is to change society, not to tell anyone to take precautions cause that doesn't work, the reason why rape happens so much is cause people think the girl has to say no if it's not okay.
People should look for signs that the person doesn't want to have sex rather than look for signs that say the person does. Unfortunately this is not the case. Because as it is today people think "Oh, this girl made out with me, obviously she wants to have sex".[/QUOTE]
Its not going to be a fight that can ever be won. It can be reduced and people can be educated, but this whole expectation that rape and murder will magically disappear if children are brought up listening to Philip Glass is ridiculous.
And sorry but if some guy makes out with a girl and they start making moves towards the bedroom and she doesn't say an outright no then I find it hard to call that rape.
tip for not raping people: anything other than an enthusiastic "yes" = "no," you should never just assume that shit
You can complain all you like about what you consider rape and what you don't but you're forgetting that you don't get to decide that. Making out with someone is not permission to fuck them. Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp?
[QUOTE=halflife_123;42454528]You can complain all you like about what you consider rape and what you don't but you're forgetting that you don't get to decide that. Making out with someone is not permission to fuck them. Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp?[/QUOTE]
Entitlement.
[QUOTE=halflife_123;42454528]You can complain all you like about what you consider rape and what you don't but you're forgetting that you don't get to decide that. Making out with someone is not permission to fuck them. Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp?[/QUOTE]
I find it hard to fathom how you are telling everyone here that they "[I]don't get to decide what rape is[/I]", yet you're basically protelizing with "making out with someone is not permission to fuck them".
I also think it funny that people on here speak volumes about what isn't permission, but seem relatively terse on the subject of what exactly constitutes permission.
A woman making out with you and not giving off an negative signals as you begin undressing one another would sound like implied consent to me.
Or are you seriously trying to somehow imply that people should sign permission forms before having sex?
Speak of the devil and it appears.
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42454663]I find it hard to fathom how you are telling everyone here that they "[I]don't get to decide what rape is[/I]", yet you're basically protelizing with "making out with someone is not permission to fuck them".
I also think it funny that people on here speak volumes about what isn't permission, but seem relatively terse on the subject of what exactly constitutes permission.
A woman making out with you and not giving off an negative signals as you begin undressing one another would sound like implied consent to me.
[B]Or are you seriously trying to somehow imply that people should sign permission forms before having sex?[/B][/QUOTE]
Wait do they have those
Link em to me
Come on man I need those
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42454663]I find it hard to fathom how you are telling everyone here that they "[I]don't get to decide what rape is[/I]", yet you're basically protelizing with "making out with someone is not permission to fuck them".[/quote]
I think 'making out with someone is not permission to fuck them' is a standalone quote. It's self-explanatory.
[quote]
I also think it funny that people on here speak volumes about what isn't permission, but seem relatively terse on the subject of what exactly constitutes permission.
A woman making out with you and not giving off an negative signals as you begin undressing one another would sound like implied consent to me.
Or are you seriously trying to somehow imply that people should sign permission forms before having sex?[/QUOTE]
Nobody is saying you need to sign a form. What people are trying to say is that you should make sure the person is in a condition to consent (i.e. not drunk, high, asleep etc) and has in some way said you can fuck them. It isn't like
"Hey can I have sex with you?"
"Yes you have my explicit consent. You may put your penis in me."
I think these days people go off enthusiastic consent, like dirty talk or something. So as you say, if you're undressing each other that probably implies she probably wants to do something but you might want to see whether she's up for 2nd base, 3rd base, 4th base or whatever. This shit isn't difficult.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;42454823]Wait do they have those
Link em to me
Come on man I need those[/QUOTE]
It wouldn't surprise me if they looked something like this:
[IMG]http://www.celebritybabyscoop.com/files/2010/03/permission-slips-every-womans-guide-to-giving-herself-a-break-1.jpg[/IMG]
[editline]9th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=halflife_123;42454852]Nobody is saying you need to sign a form. What people are trying to say is that you should make sure the person is in a condition to consent (i.e. not drunk, high, asleep etc) and has in some way said you can fuck them. It isn't like
"Hey can I have sex with you?"
"Yes you have my explicit consent. You may put your penis in me."
I think these days people go off enthusiastic consent, like dirty talk or something. So as you say, if you're undressing each other that probably implies she probably wants to do something but you might want to see whether she's up for 2nd base, 3rd base, 4th base or whatever. This shit isn't difficult.[/QUOTE]
That is why I specifically said:
[I]A woman making out with you and not giving off an negative signals as you begin [B]undressing one another[/B] would sound like implied consent to me.[/I]
So as much as you have to say on the topic, there are some people in this thread that sound like they believe in the permission slip system.
I still don't understand what situation you would be in where it is obviously leading towards sex (a good clue would be two consenting adults in a private room undressing each other and the male taking out a condom) and a woman hasn't said no--yet somehow that is rape?
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42453674]I think the major misunderstanding is that the issue is not about violent rape that takes form in women being attacked by stranger in the middle of the night. We're talking about rape as in sex where not everybody wants to have sex - just cause the girl isn't screaming and fighting doesn't mean it's okay. How exactly do you take precautions to these kind of rapes? It's not like a girl expect to get raped when she drinks.[/QUOTE]
I think the major misunderstanding is that you guys think TF and me were talking about all rapes. We weren't. Imagine for a minute we were talking only about rapes done by strangers. Suddenly it's exactly what you called commons sense and said that everyone should do or already does.
I wonder why Jeep-Eep hasn´t been banned for ratespamming yet...
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42455558]I wonder why Jeep-Eep hasn´t been banned for ratespamming yet...[/QUOTE]
I think you can only get banned for stamping if you have a script or a bot doing it, if it's doing it by hand there's no problem
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42455380]I think the major misunderstanding is that you guys think TF and me were talking about all rapes. We weren't. Imagine for a minute we were talking only about rapes done by strangers. Suddenly it's exactly what you called commons sense and said that everyone should do or already does.[/QUOTE]
You overestimate T-f00t. By a considerable margin.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42455860]You overestimate T-f00t. By a considerable margin.[/QUOTE]
I'm judging what he said in this vid only.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42456049]I'm judging what he said in this vid only.[/QUOTE]
I'm judging by past behavior beyond this video.
Reactionary thinking 101 in this video.
I stayed out of the discussion of the first video, and truly didn't watch it, but it's absolutely true that this is most shallow and reactionary way of going about this.
Is he right? Yea, sure, minimizing your factors to getting raped is fine. This is the "lowest fix".
But [I]teaching them not to rape[/I] is the fundamentally best solution. Creating conditions that eliminate the chances of rapists being rapists is the ultimate method.
All that feminists are saying is fix the goddam causes. What good is he doing to state the obvious that we should protect ourselves against rape? His method, however, is the one that does the least good and the most limitation to us. Essentially, it's counter-productive.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42456067]I'm judging by past behavior beyond this video.[/QUOTE]
So you disagree with his current argument because you disagree with him on things he said elsewhere?
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42456286']Reactionary thinking 101 in this video.
I stayed out of the discussion of the first video, and truly didn't watch it, but it's absolutely true that this is most shallow and reactionary way of going about this.
Is he right? Yea, sure, minimizing your factors to getting raped is fine. This is the "lowest fix".
But [I]teaching them not to rape[/I] is the fundamentally best solution. Creating conditions that eliminate the chances of rapists being rapists is the ultimate method.
All that feminists are saying is fix the goddam causes. What good is he doing to state the obvious that we should protect ourselves against rape? His method, however, is the one that does the least good and the most limitation to us. Essentially, it's counter-productive.[/QUOTE]
Cant you do both?
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42456286']Reactionary thinking 101 in this video.
I stayed out of the discussion of the first video, and truly didn't watch it, but it's absolutely true that this is most shallow and reactionary way of going about this.
Is he right? Yea, sure, minimizing your factors to getting raped is fine. This is the "lowest fix".
But [I]teaching them not to rape[/I] is the fundamentally best solution. Creating conditions that eliminate the chances of rapists being rapists is the ultimate method.
All that feminists are saying is fix the goddam causes. What good is he doing to state the obvious that we should protect ourselves against rape? His method, however, is the one that does the least good and the most limitation to us. Essentially, it's counter-productive.[/QUOTE]
Yes because all Men are just mindless drones that are controlled solely by their emotions and penises.
We are already teaching people not to rape, yet rape still happens, and will happen.
The best thing you can do is accept the risk of being raped and minimize your chances of being raped.
I really can't think about this in any other way.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42456516]So you disagree with his current argument because you disagree with him on things he said elsewhere?
[/QUOTE]
No, he's proven that he doesn't understand jack on this subject elsewhere and refuses to learn and is a bad faith commentator.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42456529]Yes because all Men are just mindless drones that are controlled solely by their emotions and penises.
We are already teaching people not to rape, yet rape still happens, and will happen.
The best thing you can do is accept the risk of being raped and minimize your chances of being raped.
I really can't think about this in any other way.[/QUOTE]
Imposing more equal views and educating more on empathy and human equality might be a good way. We live in a society that is male-centric, no wonder men think little of it when they create social institutions that objectify and exploit women for generally male gain. Rape still happens because we live in a culture that minimizes the humanity of women, and minimizes the importance of empathy and equality, and that turns a blind eye or even accepts rape or abuse, and endorses subjugation.
We don't teach men not to rape, we do the opposite. we promote the objectification of women in our media and teach about the importance and focus of men in culture, society, history. You read in a textbook about the conquests of men, you go home to hear about the achievement of men today, and then you unwind by watching some television that has no major female leads or in-depth characters and music videos or games that glorify women as objects to attain, status symbols, and sex pets.
Good thing we teach all that stuff about how women are politically equal and did some important things sometimes once in a while! Boy howdy, that sure instills feelings of empathy and human connection.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42456516]
Cant you do both?[/QUOTE]
I'd rather not have to limit my personal freedoms and have to make choices as to whether where I want to go, dress like, and ultimately just plain do will get me sexually assaulted, or assaulted period.
This is not something that a healthy functional society does. If someone wants to run around mostly naked in a way that otherwise wouldn't offend people they should be able to without fear of being raped. We can't have both, because either we have a situation where women can walk around dressing like "sluts" and not getting raped, or we have a culture where they would and would have to act more conservatively. Pick one- either we need to fear rape or we don't need to fear rape.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42456877']
We don't teach men not to rape, we do the opposite. we promote the objectification of women in our media and teach about the importance and focus of men in culture, society, history. You read in a textbook about the conquests of men, you go home to hear about the achievement of men today, and then you unwind by watching some television that has no major female leads or in-depth characters and music videos or games that glorify women as objects to attain, status symbols, and sex pets.
[/QUOTE]
IDK about you but I'm pretty sure I play games and watch films with that exact stuff you mentioned and I don't feel like I'm being taught to rape.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42456877']Imposing more equal views and educating more on empathy and human equality might be a good way. We live in a society that is male-centric, no wonder men think little of it when they create social institutions that objectify and exploit women for generally male gain. Rape still happens because we live in a culture that minimizes the humanity of women, and minimizes the importance of empathy and equality, and that turns a blind eye or even accepts rape or abuse, and endorses subjugation.
We don't teach men not to rape, we do the opposite. we promote the objectification of women in our media and teach about the importance and focus of men in culture, society, history. You read in a textbook about the conquests of men, you go home to hear about the achievement of men today, and then you unwind by watching some television that has no major female leads or in-depth characters and music videos or games that glorify women as objects to attain, status symbols, and sex pets.
Good thing we teach all that stuff about how women are politically equal and did some important things sometimes once in a while! Boy howdy, that sure instills feelings of empathy and human connection.
I'd rather not have to limit my personal freedoms and have to make choices as to whether where I want to go, dress like, and ultimately just plain do will get me sexually assaulted, or assaulted period.
This is not something that a healthy functional society does. If someone wants to run around mostly naked in a way that otherwise wouldn't offend people they should be able to without fear of being raped. We can't have both, because either we have a situation where women can walk around dressing like "sluts" and not getting raped, or we have a culture where they would and would have to act more conservatively. Pick one- either we need to fear rape or we don't need to fear rape.[/quote]
I don't believe that you can prevent rape by just changing up society a little bit, there will be less rape, but there's still be rape.
all this nonsensical bullshit can be prevented if you just take some precautions.
I would bring the lock analogy but it's just meaningless.
It doesn't matter how much effort you will put into educating people rape and equality.
The risk of being raped will still be there, you can achieve the same thing by just taking some precautions, that wont effect the quality of your life.
[QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;42456935]IDK about you but I'm pretty sure I play games and watch films with that exact stuff you mentioned and I don't feel like I'm being taught to rape.[/QUOTE]
Of course not. we aren't being taught directly, but if you perception of women is consistently unempathetic, which ours isn't clearly (but in some cultures it very much is), then what are you going to care if you rape a woman? If you're fundamentally unable to emphasis with a woman and have been exposed mostly only to "women are less" or "women are physically pleasing" only, well, then you're going to have a hard time understanding why harming one is bad.
And this isn't just with women, we see this with race. People are confounded how people could ever be so cruel to slaves, or to immigrants. And even when we were accepting that slavery and indentured servitude is wrong, for so long we still care little about them and could not care about them. And it is because of the same thing- we still don't quite have a society that has changed its perception to depict women the same as men. While we have emphasis on the "wrongdoings of white men" and "the prevalence of black folk" in our education and politics and television (though not enough obviously if the condition of the black population in America is any indicator), we have far less so for women. Our cruelty was not out of animalistic instinct or subliminal messages, but simply consistently convening a depiction of the exploited group less as humans and more like objects, or stock characters, or a stereotype, or something with less dimensions than what we consider ourselves to have.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457115]I don't believe that you can prevent rape by just changing up society a little bit, there will be less rape, but there's still be rape.
all this nonsensical bullshit can be prevented if you just take some precautions.
I would bring the lock analogy but it's just meaningless.
It doesn't matter how much effort you will put into educating people rape and equality.
The risk of being raped will still be there, you can achieve the same thing by just taking some precautions, that wont effect the quality of your life.[/QUOTE]
We can drastically reduce it by changing the way our society deals with women and womens' empowerment.
Compare to nations like Denmark and Sweden, which have very proactive programs to empower women and make them a more prominent part of society. Statistically speaking, countries that have a focus on this (read: most other countries, including your own Germany) has drastically lower rates of rape. This is the route that needs to be taken, not the route of "impose restrictions on yourself! always carry a rape whistle because it's going to happen if you don't!"
[QUOTE=Cone;42442367]there are far too many people that would have sex with an intoxicated person. this number needs to be brought down, and the best way to do that is to teach them about the line between sex and rape - the only thing separating you from having sex with someone who can't properly consent is how much you know about the concept of consent.[/QUOTE]
Are you calling me a rapist for going out to a party, getting smashed and hooking up with another drunk person? If so, that's pretty much what college culture is and good fucking luck trying to change that.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];42457151']Of course not. we aren't being taught directly, but if you perception of women is consistently unempathetic, which ours isn't clearly (but in some cultures it very much is), then what are you going to care if you rape a woman? If you're fundamentally unable to emphasis with a woman and have been exposed mostly only to "women are less" or "women are physically pleasing" only, well, then you're going to have a hard time understanding why harming one is bad.
And this isn't just with women, we see this with race. People are confounded how people could ever be so cruel to slaves, or to immigrants. And even when we were accepting that slavery and indentured servitude is wrong, for so long we still care little about them and could not care about them. And it is because of the same thing- we still don't quite have a society that has changed its perception to depict women the same as men. While we have emphasis on the "wrongdoings of white men" and "the prevalence of black folk" in our education and politics and television (though not enough obviously if the condition of the black population in America is any indicator), we have far less so for women. Our cruelty was not out of animalistic instinct or subliminal messages, but simply consistently convening a depiction of the exploited group less as humans and more like objects, or stock characters, or a stereotype, or something with less dimensions than what we consider ourselves to have.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
We can drastically reduce it by changing the way our society deals with women and womens' empowerment.
Compare to nations like Denmark and Sweden, which have very proactive programs to empower women and make them a more prominent part of society. Statistically speaking, countries that have a focus on this (read: most other countries, including your own Germany) has drastically lower rates of rape. This is the route that needs to be taken, not the route of "impose restrictions on yourself! always carry a rape whistle because it's going to happen if you don't!"[/QUOTE]
I cannot agree with this, where do you get this information from?
This is just based on your own opinion, I'm sure that developed societies that aren't being actively influenced by barbaric rules that present women as objects and women being less than men are not
unempathetic towards women.
This has to be narrowed down to the underdeveloped societies.
Places where women get sent to prison for telling the police about being raped and getting a bigger sentence than the rapist, that's what needs to be change, and those are exactly the places where activists have 0 influence.
[QUOTE=breakyourfac;42457230]Are you calling me a rapist for going out to a party, getting smashed and hooking up with another drunk person? If so, that's pretty much what college culture is and good fucking luck trying to change that.[/QUOTE]
No. It's when you hook up with someone drunk when you are sober that's an issue.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42457320]No. It's when you hook up with someone drunk when you are sober that's an issue.[/QUOTE]
Well, I think most people will agree that exploiting the fact that someone got drunk and is not aware of his actions is bad thing to do, don't you agree?
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