[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457367]Well, I think most people will agree that exploiting the fact that someone got drunk and is not aware of his actions is bad thing to do, don't you agree?[/QUOTE]
Apparently not cause it happens quite a lot.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457367]Well, I think most people will agree that exploiting the fact that someone got drunk and is not aware of his actions is bad thing to do, don't you agree?[/QUOTE]
You didn't read the posts in the last TF thread, did you?
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42457421]You didn't read the posts in the last TF thread, did you?[/QUOTE]
Well, if that really is the case, I cannot believe that just educating people about this will change anything
Surely most places don't see rape as a positive thing, this has to be more complicated than this.
All I can say is, Good luck changing people.
I just cannot see how teaching people not to rape will work, no one will take it seriously.
The problem is not only that it happens bu tthat [I]when[/I] it happens nothing is done because it's not legally considered rape. I'm not implying it should be considered as abad as assaulted rape, but it certainly shouldn't go unseen.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
I mea it depends on wherer you live, ofcourse.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42457320]No. It's when you hook up with someone drunk when you are sober that's an issue.[/QUOTE]
So if I get drunk before hooking up with them then it's okay?
Also I'm kinda being reminded of that scene from Superbad.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42455380]I think the major misunderstanding is that you guys think TF and me were talking about all rapes. We weren't. Imagine for a minute we were talking only about rapes done by strangers. Suddenly it's exactly what you called commons sense and said that everyone should do or already does.[/QUOTE]
If it's common sense and what everyone already does then what's the point of making the video? Why does he, someone who has basically no personal experience with the issue and by the looks of it hasn't even bothered to do research into it, feel the need to lecture women about something they already know and have to live with every day? Why does he think talking out of his arse, giving vague and unhelpful advice, compaing people to wasps and mountain lions, and telling people things they've heard 1000 times before is more productive than an effort on educating people about consent and changing societal attitudes towards women and rape?
Because he's not seriously attempting to reduce rape, he's just making yet another dig at feminists, and making a prat of himself in the process.
[QUOTE=Tweevle;42457616]If it's common sense and what everyone already does then what's the point of making the video? Why does he, someone who has basically no personal experience with the issue and by the looks of it hasn't even bothered to do research into it, feel the need to lecture women about something they already know and have to live with every day? Why does he think talking out of his arse, giving vague and unhelpful advice and telling people things they've heard 1000 times before is more productive than an effort on educating people about consent and changing societal attitudes towards women and rape?
Because he's not seriously attempting to reduce rape, he's just making yet another dig at feminists, and making a prat of himself in the process.[/QUOTE]
I don't think He ever said that he's an activist and that he wants to stop rape, he's responding with his own points to the points that feminists make to fuel a discussion.
[QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;42457613]So if I get drunk before hooking up with them then it's okay?
Also I'm kinda being reminded of that scene from Superbad.[/QUOTE]
If they're up for it.
To be honest if you're drunk and the girl is drunk that doesn't make it okay to rape, it's a thin line, it's not black and white - you should be able to tell when the girl doesn't want to, and no I'm not implying you should know if the girl will regret it later but if she's blacked out and not moving then NO it's not okay even if you're drunk as fuck.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42457681]If they're up for it.
To be honest if you're drunk and the girl is drunk that doesn't make it okay to rape, it's a thin line, it's not black and white - you should be able to tell when the girl doesn't want to, and no I'm not implying you should know if the girl will regret it later but if she's blacked out and not moving then NO it's not okay even if you're drunk as fuck.[/QUOTE]
How exactly are you supposed to tell if you're drunk?
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457708]How exactly are you supposed to tell if you're drunk?[/QUOTE]
You can't tell she's not responding when you're drunk? Because believe me, if you're about to have sex with someone they oughta react positively otherwise you can be pretty sure it's not game on :v:
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42457736]You can't tell she's not responding when you're drunk? Because believe me, if you're about to have sex with someone they oughta react positively otherwise you can be pretty sure it's not game on :v:[/QUOTE]
You must have completely different experiences when you're drunk then.
I find it really hard to do any kind of rational decisions when I'm drunk as fuck.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457806]You must have completely different experiences when you're drunk then.
I find it really hard to do any kind of rational decisions when I'm drunk as fuck.[/QUOTE]
Then don't get in situations where sex is on the table.
Sorry to go on a tangent here since I don't think we have a thread for general venting and anger on this subject and this has just all come together.
This thread inspired me to talk to my friend about a mutual friend we were both good friends with, he regularly annoys girls with calls and texts at ungodly hours then bugs them on nights out.
To cut a long story short there are at least 6 girls we know personally that have woken up in his bed and not known if anything has happened and not remembering the night, we think he may have been date raping them but he certainly took advantage of paralytic girls.
Turns out the friend I spoke to drank with him back in 2006 (she was 15) in a field out of the way and after 2-3 drinks he poured she fell asleep and woke up to find him fingering her, she pushed him away and ran home.
As far as I can tell none of these girls realise they were raped and instead think it is drunken mistakes and they must have given consent despite not remembering anything.
This has gone on for at least 7 years and there are numerous girls (some underage) who were friends with him then suddenly cut all ties and never mentioned him again. This is not counting anyone he bugs randomly or the numerous girls he claimed to talk to outside the area.
I'm working on getting more stories and my friend and I are going to push for them to go to the authorities so this cannot carry on.
This is a guy I had previously considered my best friend and I never imagined he would do something like this, so obviously not everyone knows what is and is not allowed and people take advantage of that ignorance.
Now its just convincing these girls that a lack of evidence is no reason to stay quiet. This is going to be a really shit week.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457806]You must have completely different experiences when you're drunk then.
I find it really hard to do any kind of rational decisions when I'm drunk as fuck.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I find it hard to make rational decisions too, to a certain extent - I don't lack a complete sense of morality and rationality and if you do then you shouldn't get that drunk in the first place.
Even so why the heck should drunkedness be an excuse for anything? You don't get away with something just cause you were drunk, why should you do so with rape? It's not like you "accidently" have sex with someone because you're drunk, it takes quite a lot of thinking and acting. Yeah you may regret having sex with someone later and say that you wouldn't have done it if you wouldn't have drunk, that's fine, if both parts were okay with it at time that's fine - a blacked out person is not okay with anything.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42457867]Yeah, I find it hard to make rational decisions too, to a certain extent - I don't lack a complete sense of morality and rationality and if you do then you shouldn't get that drunk in the first place.
Even so why the heck should drunkedness be an excuse for anything? You don't get away with something just cause you were drunk, why should you do so with rape? It's not like you "accidently" have sex with someone because you're drunk, it takes quite a lot of thinking and acting. Yeah you may regret having sex with someone later and say that you wouldn't have done it if you wouldn't have drunk, that's fine, if both parts were okay with it at time that's fine - a blacked out person is not okay with anything.[/QUOTE]
I agree with that, but if both are drunk and willing, is it considered rape if she wasn't willing half way or when she regretted it when she became sober?
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457661]I don't think He ever said that he's an activist and that he wants to stop rape, he's responding with his own points to the points that feminists make to fuel a discussion.[/QUOTE]
So he doesn't actually care much about the serious issue of rape, he's just using it as a football to kick at feminists? Charming.
And what's he bringing to the discussion, anyway? "Oh hey girls you probably don't know this but I thought I'd tell you that when you were raped it wasn't actually rape it was bad sex, and also you probably didn't realise you should take basic precautions in case some guy tries to actually rape you, and so I think you should act like wasps if you see any mountain lions and that'll help, only that won't always work so sux to be you, I feel you though it must suck to be so horribly scarred that you can't see how beautiful I am, oh and btw you shouldn't take too many precautions or else you'll just be a paranoid bitch who will die alone lol"
Yeah, such an enlightening perspective Mr. Mason has brought to this discussion, I'm sure everyone's glad to have his well-informed input.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;42457829]Turns out the friend I spoke to drank with him back in 2006 (she was 15) in a field out of the way and after 2-3 drinks he poured she fell asleep and woke up to find him fingering her, she pushed him away and ran home.
As far as I can tell none of these girls realise they were raped and instead think it is drunken mistakes and they must have given consent despite not remembering anything.
This has gone on for at least 7 years and there are numerous girls (some underage) who were friends with him then suddenly cut all ties and never mentioned him again. This is not counting anyone he bugs randomly or the numerous girls he claimed to talk to outside the area.
I'm working on getting more stories and my friend and I are going to push for them to go to the authorities so this cannot carry on.
This is a guy I had previously considered my best friend and I never imagined he would do something like this, so obviously not everyone knows what is and is not allowed and people take advantage of that ignorance.
Now its just convincing these girls that a lack of evidence is no reason to stay quiet. This is going to be a really shit week.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly the kind of shit that we're talking about.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42457908]I agree with that, but if both are drunk and willing, is it considered rape if she wasn't willing half way or when she regretted it when she became sober?[/QUOTE]
If she wasn't willing half way, what does that mean? If she starts changing her mind and tells you that she doesn't want to have sex while you're doing it then yeah you should stop otherwise it may turn into rape. If both of you are willing all the way through and she regretted it when she became sober then it's probably her fault.
[QUOTE=Tweevle;42457912]So he doesn't actually care much about the serious issue of rape, he's just using it as a football to kick at feminists? Charming.
And what's he bringing to the discussion, anyway? "Oh hey girls you probably don't know this but I thought I'd tell you that when you were raped it wasn't actually rape it was bad sex, and also you probably didn't realise you should take basic precautions in case some guy tries to actually rape you, and so I think you should act like wasps if you see any mountain lions and that'll help, only that won't always work so sux to be you, I feel you though it must suck to be so horribly scarred that you can't see how beautiful I am, oh and btw you shouldn't take too many precautions or else you'll just be a paranoid bitch who will die alone lol"
Yeah, such an enlightening perspective Mr. Mason has brought to this discussion, I'm sure everyone's glad to have his well-informed input.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, these videos are basically the equivalent of doug's crusade against garry when he was banned for a goatse avatar.
[quote]I agree with that, but if both are drunk and willing, is it considered rape if she wasn't willing half way[/quote]
Pull out. You ain't a dog, you and her aren't knotted together.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42457931]If she wasn't willing half way, what does that mean? If she starts changing her mind and tells you that she doesn't want to have sex while you're doing it then yeah you should stop otherwise it may turn into rape. If both of you are willing all the way through and she regretted it when she became sober then it's probably her fault.[/QUOTE]
This is so vague and complex, do you really expect most people to care about this?
all people want is to have fun, I don't think that most of the people that rape do it to willingly inflict damage to an other person, they mostly do it to feed their needs.
Now think about just regular teens, now they will have to think, Oh, this might be considered rape, and this and this too, seems like people would get too paranoid to do anything at that point.
I completely agree with you, but I just can't see how feminists are planing on fixing this.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;42457913]This is exactly the kind of shit that we're talking about.[/QUOTE]
I know. Thats why I spoke to my friend about it and it got us talking about our friend and explained to her how he had sexually assaulted her and it was not on.
I wasn't trying to stink up the thread or anything I just needed to vent about it.
[quote]This is so vague and complex, do you really expect most people to care about this?
all people want is to have fun, I don't think that most of the people that rape do it to willingly inflict damage to an other person, they mostly do it to feed their needs.
Now think about just regular teens, now they will have to think, Oh, this might be considered rape, and this and this too, seems like people would get too paranoid to do anything at that point.
I completely agree with you, but I just can't see how feminists are planing on fixing this. [/quote]
We are doing something about it. That education campaign [I]that thunderf00t said moronic shit about in the last thread you posted[/I].
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42458089]We are doing something about it. That education campaign [I]that thunderf00t said moronic shit about in the last thread you posted[/I].[/QUOTE]
Good luck.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42458100]Good luck.[/QUOTE]
We shall see.
[QUOTE=Tweevle;42457616]If it's common sense and what everyone already does then what's the point of making the video? Why does he, someone who has basically no personal experience with the issue and by the looks of it hasn't even bothered to do research into it, feel the need to lecture women about something they already know and have to live with every day? Why does he think talking out of his arse, giving vague and unhelpful advice, compaing people to wasps and mountain lions, and telling people things they've heard 1000 times before is more productive than an effort on educating people about consent and changing societal attitudes towards women and rape?
Because he's not seriously attempting to reduce rape, he's just making yet another dig at feminists, and making a prat of himself in the process.[/QUOTE]
I think his point is that advocating "commons sense and things that everyone already does" isn't victim blaming.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater]I'd rather not have to limit my personal freedoms and have to make choices as to whether where I want to go, dress like, and ultimately just plain do will get me sexually assaulted, or assaulted period.
This is not something that a healthy functional society does. If someone wants to run around mostly naked in a way that otherwise wouldn't offend people they should be able to without fear of being raped. We can't have both, because either we have a situation where women can walk around dressing like "sluts" and not getting raped, or we have a culture where they would and would have to act more conservatively. Pick one- either we need to fear rape or we don't need to fear rape.[/QUOTE]
Hey I'd rather not limit my freedoms with locking my house and my car and insuring them against theft. I'd rather not limit my freedoms with avoiding bad parts of my town at night. There's a giant difference between what things should be and what they actually are. Thinking that you can just ignore the danger, because "it shouldn't be that" way is just childish and irresponsible.
Does locking your car and house at night mean that the society is okay with theft? Do you oppose theft or do you lock your doors? Pick one.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42458038]
Pull out. You ain't a dog[/QUOTE]
How the hell do you legislate this? Obviously being drunk doesn't excuse rape but cases like this are ripe for lies and abuse.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42458041]This is so vague and complex, do you really expect most people to care about this?
all people want is to have fun, I don't think that most of the people that rape do it to willingly inflict damage to an other person, they mostly do it to feed their needs.
Now think about just regular teens, now they will have to think, Oh, this might be considered rape, and this and this too, seems like people would get too paranoid to do anything at that point.
I completely agree with you, but I just can't see how feminists are planing on fixing this.[/QUOTE]
I don't think most people commit these kind of rape offenses knowingly either, but not because they're drunk and horny animals who can't stay away from sex but because they grow up in a society where they don't know this stuff is rape. If people understood what I have explained they wouldn't do it, even if they're shit drunk, but in our society it's okay and therefor they don't think about it.
[editline]8th October 2013[/editline]
And that's why the "educate" argument in my opinion is very valid, because many rapists don't even realise they're raping.
[QUOTE=benwaddi;42458070]I know. Thats why I spoke to my friend about it and it got us talking about our friend and explained to her how he had sexually assaulted her and it was not on.
I wasn't trying to stink up the thread or anything I just needed to vent about it.[/QUOTE]
I think what you said is an important illustration of the point. People don't always realise what they or people they know are doing is sexual assualt/rape, so education about this sort of thing is important. If it weren't for the campaign to educate people about consent (a.k.a. teach people not to rape, but also teach people not to accept people they know raping), then you might never have thought about it and confronted your friend, and who knows what he might have ended up doing while he thought that sort of behaviour was okay. Thunderf00t seems to be saying we should all shut up about it because it's pointless, and that's both wrong and extremely counter-productive.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42458126]I think his point is that advocating "commons sense and things that everyone already does" isn't victim blaming.[/QUOTE]
It is when there's literally no point in doing that because everyone's aware of it already, and all the focus is on that instead of actually addressing the cause of the problem i.e. rapist.
[QUOTE=Tweevle;42458241]It is when there's literally no point in doing that because everyone's aware of it already, and all the focus is on that instead of actually addressing the cause of the problem i.e. rapist.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone is aware of it already. Look at seed eater, he's saying that you shouldn't mind your safety.
There are people literally saying that you shouldn't give a fuck that you might be putting yourself in a situation where you can be hurt because "it shouldn't be like that" or something. That's where that argument came from. It was addressed to people like that. This argument is just telling some idiots that it's just common sense to do these things.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42458459]Not everyone is aware of it already. Look at seed eater, he's saying that you shouldn't mind your safety.
There are people literally saying that you shouldn't give a fuck that you might be putting yourself in a situation where you can be hurt because "it shouldn't be like that" or something. That's where that argument came from. It was addressed to people like that. This argument is just telling some idiots that it's just common sense to do these things.[/QUOTE]
My kingdom for a bad reading rating.
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