[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32292649]Instead you should have spent the money on needy kids. Pepin knowing poor kids are getting fed without working 12 hours would make him angrier.
[sp]The hate pepin bandwagon is moving to fast to jump off now[/sp][/QUOTE]
I don't hate Pepin because of a band wagon, or because of outofthread reason.
I hate him exclusive to this thread because he doesn't seem to realize how much this can't possibly work, period.
If you remove minimum wage, there are too many negatives that can happen to make it even work, it'll make it far more bad than good.
[QUOTE=The one that is;32293022]Well most consumers are fucking idiots like the OP.[/QUOTE]
I don't normally pay attention to the company, but if I see that they're morally screwed, I tend to avoid it.
I avoid a restaurant I was fired from because they fired me the third day because I wasn't fast enough, even though I was in training, and they didn't even look at the person training me or try talking to me, or even warn me at all. I was being extremely careful and trying to be as quick as I could, but the "I've been here 3 days, you, 30 years", doesn't seem to work.
No hard feeling though, I just don't buy from there anymore, just like I don't buy from Activision or apple, only I don't buy from them for more cynical reasons.
[QUOTE=Pepin;32292590]Except there is floor to what people consider to be worth their time. I made this point with illegal immigrants working below minimum wage, though they are willing to do that, they aren't willing to work at wage that would not be beneficial to them. Certainly there would be some underbidding, but not at all the point where people would be making labor contacts that do not benefit themselves. I'm also trying to figure out who would be doing it cheaper in this scenario, and all I can come with are the people who minimum wage unemploys.
Unless I mistyped something which is possible as I'm typing up some decent sized responses all at once, what I remember saying is that it wouldn't be acceptable in France. I believe I gave France as an example because the word overseas came into play. I don't feel like going back, but it should be pretty clear that I only said child labor should be permitted in developed countries where it is not a means to survive.[/QUOTE]
And more immigrants may flock at a certain area of work, at less pay, meaning less job for real US citizens. I see your point, but the fact is, people would desperately fight more and more for jobs for less, meaning less money would be paid to more and more desperate people. This is one largely possibly scenario thats far too risky to be for the better.
Immigrants are cool and all, but I'd rather they didn't steal my job.
[QUOTE=Remscar;32292312]Heres your problem:
Strawberry picking company, with no minimum wage i pay my workers a dollar a day. (The point of this argument is that there is no actual skill required to work)
If you have a problem with it, then your fired. There are loads of people who would love to have your job.
Also to the OP:
Have you see the TV show "30 days on minimum wage" doubt you have.
and to piss in your cup even more, do you know that when minimum wage was created it was supposed to be raised every few years to adjust for inflation and higher costs of necessities? But guess what! It hasn't increased nearly to the point that it should thanks to congress! And im sure you can figure their reasoning out, it doesn't take a rocket scientist.[/QUOTE]
Because they are politicians, fucking pricks of the world.
[QUOTE=The one that is;32293068]Because they are politicians, fucking pricks of the world.[/QUOTE]
we should pay politicians minimum wage, and thats it, so only the truly devoted, true hearted ones would actually take the job, not cigar sucking corporate psychopaths.
[editline]14th September 2011[/editline]
It's an insane idea that may never work, but think about it.
[QUOTE=Lankist;32292488]you paid for that?
Christ how much did you pay?
[editline]14th September 2011[/editline]
I mean it's funny and all but jesus[/QUOTE]
Given that i actually found a 20 on the pavement yesterday, the 10 I spent on that counts as entertainment.
I'm against minimum wage, and I'm socially liberal on most issues. You see all those threads that crop up here about teenagers unable to get jobs? They wouldn't be out of work if there were no minimum wage. What minimum wage does is force teenagers and low-skilled laborers to compete with better-trained and more experienced workers for the same pay.
I worked at a summer camp this year. I worked about twelve hours a day on average, and made $220 per week. Do the math and it comes out to not even $3 per hour. But what that means is that I wasn't competing for the job with professionals out of work due to the latest recession. The only people willing to settle for low pay in a tech-oriented environment are college students, so that's who my co-workers were and it's how I got the job.
Concerns over companies bottoming-out on pay are largely unfounded. Skilled labor is already well above minimum wage. The only place where minimum wage comes into play is in unskilled mechanical labor, where lower pay would allow companies to hire more workers. More people have jobs, the economy benefits. As more and more people are employed, then companies are competing not just for profit, but for workers- employees not secured by contract are quick to jump ship and join a company that pays more. Startup businesses also become cheaper to operate, and jobs that we outsource to China and India can be done locally.
In other words, instead of having some people employed and others unemployed, everyone can get employed, even if they're not making quite as much. Products, especially food, become cheaper, so cost of living goes down, which would make it easier to live on lower income. The economy benefits, and people benefit as a result.
The only people who would not directly benefit would be the people not skilled enough to earn more than minimum wage and not willing to settle for pay that reflects their market worth. If another guy can do the same job as you for half the pay, and can live on it, why do you deserve to earn more than him?
[editline]14th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=J!NX;32293257]we should pay politicians minimum wage, and thats it, so only the truly devoted, true hearted ones would actually take the job, not cigar sucking corporate psychopaths.
It's an insane idea that may never work, but think about it.[/QUOTE]
Politicians don't get their money from the job itself. The President himself only makes about 400k IIRC. They get their money from corporate ties, which is a whole other issue.
All the OP is poiting out in this thread is the reason I dislike capitalism.
[editline]14th September 2011[/editline]
And I'm really afraid people like Pepin manage to get to the power
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293454]I'm against minimum wage, and I'm socially liberal on most issues. You see all those threads that crop up here about teenagers unable to get jobs? They wouldn't be out of work if there were no minimum wage. What minimum wage does is force teenagers and low-skilled laborers to compete with better-trained and more experienced workers for the same pay.[/QUOTE]
If your main problem with it is that teenagers are unable to get part-time jobs, I'm telling you right now that's an incredibly petty reason. If your main problem is that low and high skill workers have to compete for the same pay, that's an equally invalid concern, because whether low or high skill, you cannot live off of any lower than the minimum wage.
[QUOTE=barttool;32293512]All the OP is poiting out in this thread is the reason I dislike capitalism.
[editline]14th September 2011[/editline]
And I'm really afraid people like Pepin manage to get to the power[/QUOTE]
No minimum wage is one of the REASONS Karl Marx made his ideas.
[QUOTE=Lankist;32292608]uhh illegal immigrants do work a wage that is beneficial to them. Most illegal immigrants send their wage back home to their families.
A dollar goes a long fucking way in mexico[/QUOTE]
I said it was beneficial in that post. Or are you trying to point out why it is beneficial to them?
[QUOTE=J!NX;32293031]And more immigrants may flock at a certain area of work, at less pay, meaning less job for real US citizens. I see your point, but the fact is, people would desperately fight more and more for jobs for less, meaning less money would be paid to more and more desperate people. This is one largely possibly scenario thats far too risky to be for the better.
Immigrants are cool and all, but I'd rather they didn't steal my job.[/QUOTE]
A bit of a slippery slope that I don't see happening. Again, 95% of jobs pay above minimum wage in the US. The immigrant labor we are talking about is in competition with mostly teenagers, and it would still be the same without a minimum wage.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32292486]For a dollar a day, are you high? No one can live off of that in the US.[/QUOTE]
And if no one can live off it, no one would take the job, and the company would be forced to either increase wages or go out of business...
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293454]They wouldn't be out of work if there were no minimum wage. What minimum wage does is force teenagers and low-skilled laborers to compete with better-trained and more experienced workers for the same pay.[/QUOTE] Instead it causes people to compete for the lowest pay. While most teenagers don't need a job the people who are working at minimum wage level need the money.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32293545]If your main problem with it is that teenagers are unable to get part-time jobs, I'm telling you right now that's an incredibly petty reason. [/QUOTE]
It's an example. Because of current economic conditions, low-skill and low-experience people can't get jobs. If companies could create new jobs, paying lower wages, these people would have the opportunity for employment.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32293545]If your main problem is that low and high skill workers have to compete for the same pay, that's an equally invalid concern, because whether low or high skill, you cannot live off of any lower than the minimum wage.[/QUOTE]
Were that the case, companies would have no reason to offer less than minimum wage, as people would not take jobs they knew to be unsustainable.
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293626]And if no one can live off it, no one would take the job, and the company would be forced to either increase wages or go out of business...[/QUOTE]
When has that ever happened? It didn't happen in US history when we had little to no economic regulation, and it doesn't happen in places where workers are paid exceedingly low wages.
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293626]And if no one can live off it, no one would take the job, and the company would be forced to either increase wages or go out of business...[/QUOTE] Well they could (like illegal immigrants) but they would have to live in extremely small houses or packs of families in single houses like I see today. Basically a barely livable life with many health risks.
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293672]Were that the case, companies would have no reason to offer less than minimum wage, as people would not take jobs they knew to be unsustainable.[/QUOTE]
Except that they have in the past. If there is a monopoly or no other available jobs, people will take whatever they can get. That is abhorable.
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293672]
Were that the case, companies would have no reason to offer less than minimum wage, as people would not take jobs they knew to be unsustainable.[/QUOTE]
lol yeah they would. Lankist shot down the exact same argument you're making right now like 4 pages ago. pls read the thread
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293672]It's an example. Because of current economic conditions, low-skill and low-experience people can't get jobs. If companies could create new jobs, paying lower wages, these people would have the opportunity for employment.[/QUOTE] The thing is no matter what a company is going to have a finite workers its going to want. In most cases it will just cause more jobs to pay less then more jobs be created. Not to mention a teenager wouldn't or shouldn't work for that low.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32293667]Instead it causes people to compete for the lowest pay. While most teenagers don't need a job the people who are working at minimum wage level need the money.[/QUOTE]
The full-time workers, having more experience and ability than teenagers looking for a summer job, would justify higher wages. At the same time, you are right in that it does cause competition for low pay. The real issue here is that there's not really substantive data to indicate whether or not it would be a huge problem in today's economy. Lowering minimum wage could spur growth in those industries that could take advantage of it, and competition between companies can drive wages as well. I'm not going to say it would definitely work out and be rosy, but it's not guaranteed to cripple America's blue-collar population like many people in this thread insist, and could have some practical benefits as well.
Perhaps what could be useful would be regulations allowing for specific people to be hired for under minimum wage, subject to restrictions that would keep it from being used to replace conventional workers.
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293748]The full-time workers, having more experience and ability than teenagers looking for a summer job, would justify higher wages. At the same time, you are right in that it does cause competition for low pay. The real issue here is that there's not really substantive data to indicate whether or not it would be a huge problem in today's economy. Lowering minimum wage could spur growth in those industries that could take advantage of it, and competition between companies can drive wages as well. I'm not going to say it would definitely work out and be rosy, but it's not guaranteed to cripple America's blue-collar population like many people in this thread insist, and could have some practical benefits as well.
Perhaps what could be useful would be regulations allowing for specific people to be hired for under minimum wage, subject to restrictions that would keep it from being used to replace conventional workers.[/QUOTE]
Your point has already been refuted earlier on in the thread, what are you doing?
[QUOTE=catbarf;32293748]The full-time workers, having more experience and ability than teenagers looking for a summer job, would justify higher wages. At the same time, you are right in that it does cause competition for low pay. The real issue here is that there's not really substantive data to indicate whether or not it would be a huge problem in today's economy. [/QUOTE] Again just look at illegal immigrants. They are the best workers you will find when it comes to hard labor but they get payed nothing. While some jobs can take advantage of more workers they would get payed below minimum wage and so would every other now minimum wage job. You understand that minimum wage is the amount it takes to live right? Any lower and they wont be able to afford a house.
[editline]14th September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32293801]Your point has already been refuted earlier on in the thread, what are you doing?[/QUOTE] Yea you should read the whole thread. Pretty much everything you said has been torn to pieces more then once.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32293807]You understand that minimum wage is the amount it takes to live right?
[/QUOTE]
No its isnt. It's scraping by with no security and razor edge margins of budget
Minimum wage needs to be raised.
And CEO'S, football players , celebrities , and other "high income ,low effort" layabouts need be taxed to the fucking moon and give that money to people on minimum wage who have proof that their rent/bills exceed their income
[QUOTE=Pepin;32292590]
Unless I mistyped something which is possible as I'm typing up some decent sized responses all at once, what I remember saying is that it wouldn't be acceptable in France. I believe I gave France as an example because the word overseas came into play. I don't feel like going back, but it should be pretty clear that I only said child labor should be permitted in developed countries where it is not a means to survive.[/QUOTE]
Alright, well I'm glad that the only people who will be exploited are the poor children I don't have to see.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32293801]Your point has already been refuted earlier on in the thread, what are you doing?[/QUOTE]
I just find it amusing that the opening post, complete with citations, was rated 'dumb' because people [i]disagree[/i] with his position, as if it were some obvious thing that isn't even up for debate. Minimum wage is a subject that isn't as clear-cut as it seems, and there are a fair number of accredited economists against it. There has been debate and disagreement for more than a century over whether or not it's an unequivocally good thing, and what the potential consequences of its abolishment would be. The consensus of a forum of bored high school/college students doesn't mean anything, and the fact that someone shared a disagreeing amateur opinion prior doesn't immediately preclude all further discussion.
For what it's worth, I am firmly in favor of government support for the poor, and I really hope in the next decade we see taxes go up on the rich in our country, and that money put to better use. None of us are heartless, I don't think anybody here really wants to see the poor starve to death or live on the street because they aren't 'worth it'. I just don't think minimum wage is the best means of ensuring the poor have the money they need, and that there are alternatives that should at least be considered. It's just one economic regulation among many.
It is dumb to suggest bringing back something that, combined with a large proportion of day jobs compared to subsistence farming, caused the largest class divide in US history.
It's like suggesting that we bring back colonial mercantilism (bleed the colonies dry and reap the riches).
[QUOTE=rinoaff33;32294382]It is dumb to suggest bringing back something that, combined with a large proportion of day jobs compared to subsistence farming, caused the largest class divide in US history.
It's like suggesting that we bring back colonial mercantilism (bleed the colonies dry and reap the riches).[/QUOTE]
Class division does not need to get worse. I concur.
[QUOTE=catbarf;32294326]I just don't think minimum wage is the best means of ensuring the poor have the money they need, and that there are alternatives that should at least be considered. It's just one economic regulation among many.[/QUOTE] Sure it might be up for debate but that doesn't mean ops argument was good. I don't think hes stupid but so far everything he has said has been torn apart so there is no reason to go on his side. Oh and sure there might be other ways to help people besides minimum wage but lets figure that out before we decide to take it away.
Fuck that, Ill stick with my 10.15 an hour
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32294670]Sure it might be up for debate but that doesn't mean ops argument was good. I don't think hes stupid but so far everything he has said has been torn apart so there is no reason to go on his side. Oh and sure there might be other ways to help people besides minimum wage but lets figure that out before we decide to take it away.[/QUOTE]
He presented an opinion and gave academic support, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing anyways but labeling it dumb seems a little disingenuous. I don't see reason for there to be 'sides', everyone has a differing opinion, and they're all conditional. I think a lot of people in this thread would be fine with minimum wage going away if it were accompanied by a compensatory set of economic regulations- it's not a binary yes/no issue.
I guess my point is people are getting too worked up over opinions and confusing them for facts.
[QUOTE=Karmah;32294726]Fuck that, Ill stick with my 10.15 an hour[/QUOTE]
Do you live in the US? Because if so, you already make more than minimum wage, and a change in minimum wage wouldn't affect you directly.
Minimum wage should be raised in my opinion. $7.50 isn't very much by todays standards. I know people who bring home about $150 a week cause of taxes and gas. They are forced to live at home and basically have no hope of moving out in the next 6 years. What do you guys think of like, $10.00?
I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be far higher, the minimum wage currently doesn't account for inflation I believe.
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