Why You Should Be In Favor Of No Minimum Wage - General

[QUOTE=Zeke129;32294089]Alright, well I'm glad that the only people who will be exploited are the poor children I don't have to see.[/QUOTE] You're missing the point, as the alternative to exploitation is far worse. A big Unicef study went over the what happened to the kids in countries where child labor laws where put into place. The results were not good, many died, many resorted to prostitution. Because of this, Unicef has taken the position that you have to be smart about this kind of issue because it is far more complex than it seems. The alternative to working in the sweat shop is not getting an education or being a kid, it is still working. Below is a link to the study. [url]http://www.unicef.org/sowc97/[/url]

[QUOTE=Pepin;32295665]You're missing the point, as the alternative to exploitation is far worse. A big Unicef study went over the what happened to the kids in countries where child labor laws where put into place. The results were not good, many died, many resorted to prostitution. Because of this, Unicef has taken the position that you have to be smart about this kind of issue because it is far more complex than it seems. The alternative to working in the sweat shop is not getting an education or being a kid, it is still working. Below is a link to the study. [url]http://www.unicef.org/sowc97/[/url][/QUOTE] But in America, the idea would thankfully never work again here, too many would oppose it far too much, and the parents can support them so much more. we need to seek a way to stop child labor without harm, anything that could help, including support for the parents. Simply saying "we should allow it" isn't good enough, "We can't do anything about it, but can't allow it either" is an improvement. Not only that, but far too much CL is exploitation, and far too much of it isn't giving nearly enough benefits.

[QUOTE=Pepin;32295665]You're missing the point, as the alternative to exploitation is far worse. A big Unicef study went over the what happened to the kids in countries where child labor laws where put into place. The results were not good, many died, many resorted to prostitution. Because of this, Unicef has taken the position that you have to be smart about this kind of issue because it is far more complex than it seems. The alternative to working in the sweat shop is not getting an education or being a kid, it is still working. Below is a link to the study. [url]http://www.unicef.org/sowc97/[/url][/QUOTE] "UNICEF urges an immediate end to hazardous and exploitative child labour, and advocates urgent support for education, so that children may acquire knowledge and skills to improve their lives." Yes, they totally support making child labor legal, I can really tell.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32295840]"UNICEF urges an immediate end to hazardous and exploitative child labour, and advocates urgent support for education, so that children may acquire knowledge and skills to improve their lives." Yes, they totally support making child labor legal, I can really tell.[/QUOTE] I never claimed that they supported child labor, and I of course don't support child labor, but it is not a means you want to take away when it is needed for survival. Yes, they are a bit finicky in the report because they want to make clear to their supporters that they are against child labor, while making clear that that the solution to child labor is not as simple as making a law prohibiting it. I can't even understand the argument on your side. You would prefer for there to be child labor laws and for the children to die of starvation? There is no real alternative, most can't get an education.

[QUOTE=Pepin;32296567]I never claimed that they supported child labor, and I of course don't support child labor, but it is not a means you want to take away when it is needed for survival. Yes, they are a bit finicky in the report because they want to make clear to their supporters that they are against child labor, while making clear that that the solution to child labor is not as simple as making a law prohibiting it.[/QUOTE] So tell me, what situation would you consider it appropriate to have a child be employed as opposed to being in school?

Megafanx13, seriously, read pepin, the only alternative to child labor is giving children real pay rather than exploiting them, giving them a fairer, and a minimum wage. I agree, we can't remove child labor, but simply supporting it isn't good either. "Exploitation is better than starvation" isn't progress, thats stubbornness. It's "I don't know how to fix CL, so I'll just support it". [editline]14th September 2011[/editline] at least to me it seems that way, thats just my hunk of bread and water

[QUOTE=J!NX;32296770]Megafanx13, seriously, read pepin, the only alternative to child labor is giving children real pay rather than exploiting them, giving them a fairer, and a minimum wage. I agree, we can't remove child labor, but simply supporting it isn't good either. "Exploitation is better than starvation" isn't progress, thats stubbornness. It's "I don't know how to fix CL, so I'll just support it".[/QUOTE] I'd completely disagree with the notion that we "can't remove child labor" at least in any one nation. Also, I imagine that anyone here seriously advocating making child labor legal again, is also for getting rid of the minimum wage, ala Pepin. If you can't see this being disastrous then you need to look again.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32296910]I'd completely disagree with the notion that we "can't remove child labor" at least in any one nation. Also, I imagine that anyone here seriously advocating making child labor legal again, is also for getting rid of the minimum wage, ala Pepin. If you can't see this being disastrous then you need to look again.[/QUOTE] I guess you might not safely be able to remove it by simply banning it, but you can still do SOMETHING with it (Give them a set minimum wage), and then after that let progress do the work. In the end, you can change CL, you just need to be subtle yet forceful, not harsh and sudden. If you do it too fast, bad shit happens, too slow and subtle, nothing happens, but if you force small laws in the correct delay of time, you should get progress. (Theoretically). For them, it'd stop people from being fucked in the ass.

[QUOTE=J!NX;32296997]I guess you might not safely be able to remove it by simply banning it, but you can still do SOMETHING with it (Give them a set minimum wage), and then after that let progress do the work. In the end, you can change CL, you just need to be subtle yet forceful, not harsh and sudden. If you do it too fast, bad shit happens, too slow and subtle, nothing happens, but if you force small laws in the correct delay of time, you should get progress. (Theoretically). For them, it'd stop people from being fucked in the ass.[/QUOTE] Except that it's already gone in the US? Where are you talking about in regard to phasing it out, developing countries?

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32297103]Except that it's already gone in the US? Where are you talking about in regard to phasing it out, developing countries?[/QUOTE] i'm talking about removing Child labor overseas. You can't act too fast, just fast enough that it happens.

[QUOTE=J!NX;32297182]i'm talking about removing Child labor overseas. You can't act too fast, just fast enough that it happens.[/QUOTE] Oh, well any minimum wage should apply to all people of a nation, regardless of age (if CL is legal), but ultimately it should be done away with.

[QUOTE=Dr. Deeps;32295364]Minimum wage should be raised in my opinion. $7.50 isn't very much by todays standards. I know people who bring home about $150 a week cause of taxes and gas. They are forced to live at home and basically have no hope of moving out in the next 6 years. What do you guys think of like, $10.00?[/QUOTE] This is pretty much my situation right now. Even if I work 40 hours a week I'm still making (before taxes) less than $17,000 per year. Subtract the cost of gasoline, insurance, and the ridiculous cost of rent in my state and there's no chance I can live anywhere else right now. Minimum wage is barely enough to cover necessities, and even then you'll be eating cheap, shitty food in a horrible apartment because you can't afford anything better.

also i love how the OP framed the thread title. It's: "Why you should be in favor of No Minimum Wage." and not: "Why you should be against Minimum Wage." As though he's in favor of something

Man. This is, quite simply, a retarded idea. If I'm on the dole, I'm poor, I've got no benefits, and I have to eat Tesco Value food (my tongue's starting to fall off because of that, so I now need to pay for surgery as well), and I meet Mr. Foster. "Hello Mr Foster" I say, and he sees that I'm poor and have no money. So he offers me a job for 50p per hour. So I work and work and work, and then I realize I'm being played. So I say to him "I think I'm skilled enough to be worth at least £1 per hour." Mr Foster then says "no, lol" and throws a few workers one pound to drag me out of his office. Mr Foster then goes off and hires someone to work for 20p per hour, keeping the major profits for himself whilst his unskilled workers have to compete at the lowest prices possible to gain any sort of profit. That does not sound like fun to me.

[QUOTE=Cone;32299175]Man. This is, quite simply, a retarded idea. If I'm on the dole, I'm poor, I've got no benefits, and I have to eat Tesco Value food (my tongue's starting to fall off because of that, so I now need to pay for surgery as well), and I meet Mr. Foster. "Hello Mr Foster" I say, and he sees that I'm poor and have no money. So he offers me a job for 50p per hour. So I work and work and work, and then I realize I'm being played. So I say to him "I think I'm skilled enough to be worth at least £1 per hour." Mr Foster then says "no, lol" and throws a few workers one pound to drag me out of his office. Mr Foster then goes off and hires someone to work for 20p per hour, keeping the major profits for himself whilst his unskilled workers have to compete at the lowest prices possible to gain any sort of profit. That does not sound like fun to me.[/QUOTE] Or better yet, Mr. Foster pays you so you can just barely make ends meet, but can't afford to miss work long enough to try and get a better job or go on strike.

Pepin is right, although abolishing minimum wage outright only hurts people in developed nations. This is the main reason I don't support raising minimum wage except to adjust with inflation. We do need to have a standard, that workers need to be fairly compensated at some level. However we do a pretty good job with our minimum wage, we don't need it any higher. Instead we need to create more higher paying jobs, increase the workforce for those higher paying jobs(mainly through education), and create an efficient welfare system for the people who simply won't be working those high paying jobs(someone has to mop floors at Denny's, they should have at least some comfort and standard of living). Raising the minimum wage will destroy jobs, increase prices(so unemployed people have an even harder time buying necessities), and cause a lot of disruption in the market. Instead it should be about job creation and welfare, not arbitrarily raising what low skilled workers make.

I know a way to create more higher paying jobs yawnman, raise the minimum wage! [editline]15th September 2011[/editline] Shit, you'll be improving the living standards of them as well

[QUOTE=yawmwen;32299977] Raising the minimum wage will destroy jobs, increase prices(so unemployed people have an even harder time buying necessities), and cause a lot of disruption in the market. Instead it should be about job creation and welfare, not arbitrarily raising what low skilled workers make.[/QUOTE] If the job isn't worth minimum wage after it gets a small raise, the job is probably worthless. I don't really see it as a real solution that companies have workers who don't make enough money to live, so they have to live partly on welfare even though they work full time.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32300671]I know a way to create more higher paying jobs yawnman, raise the minimum wage! [editline]15th September 2011[/editline] Shit, you'll be improving the living standards of them as well[/QUOTE] How does making employers pay more for productivity create jobs? And yeah, nobody argues the people still employed won't have a higher standard of living, it's the unemployed people that is worrisome. [QUOTE=evilking1;32301285]If the job isn't worth minimum wage after it gets a small raise, the job is probably worthless. I don't really see it as a real solution that companies have workers who don't make enough money to live, so they have to live partly on welfare even though they work full time.[/QUOTE] Those people are working the jobs you're talking about, who the hell are you to say that they're worthless? [QUOTE=Megafanx13;32296910]I'd completely disagree with the notion that we "can't remove child labor" at least in any one nation. Also, I imagine that anyone here seriously advocating making child labor legal again, is also for getting rid of the minimum wage, ala Pepin. If you can't see this being disastrous then you need to look again.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=J!NX;32296770]Megafanx13, seriously, read but simply supporting it isn't good either. "Exploitation is better than starvation" isn't progress, thats stubbornness. It's "I don't know how to fix CL, so I'll just support it".[/QUOTE] These posts are stupid. First of all, nobody "supports" or "advocates" child labor, they just don't want it banned as a matter of utility. I think child labor is awful, but do you know what I think is worse? People starving to death and children working in the black market as drug dealers or prostitutes. You can't just say, well, something is bad so I'll just pass a law against it and it'll go away. It's a childish "kicking and screaming" sort of world view. We should try at least, to understand the world around us, and why things are how they are. The parents don't just throw their arms into the air and say "Well kids, capitalism is here, get your boots and shovels and start mining coal". Why are they working? They're working because the society they live in is so physically unproductive that if the kids don't work the family starves. Child labor has existed for a long time, and it existed for a reason. Evil capitalism came along and gave us the industrial revolution, under which child labor became more scarce. That is because in the societies which were industrialized, with the capital goods at their disposal, the labor of the parents is so [i]physically[/i] productive they have the ability to work and earn enough purchasing power so their kids wouldn't have to. How much work can you do with a tractor as opposed to a shovel? How much work can you do with a computer printer as opposed to pen and ink? Extrapolate that throughout our entire economy. The natural default throughout human history, so far, has not been a "living wage" type situation. In fact the natural default throughout most of history has been child labor and grinding poverty for EVERYONE. What those people NEED are more factories so that they can feed themselves, then after a while they'll be able to build their own factories, then after that they can start worrying about being productive enough to feed their entire family on a single person's wage. This is how wealth is created. Child labor doesn't go away because you wish it would with cherries on top, it goes away when the countries become productive enough to sustain that type of lifestyle. Until that point is reached one way or another, you're starving poor people. [QUOTE=Megafanx13;32296586]So tell me, what situation would you consider it appropriate to have a child be employed as opposed to being in school?[/QUOTE] I would consider children working more appropriate if the income of the family combined is just enough to feed themselves. Knowing your times tables and working on your vocabulary isn't doing to do any good if you [b]starve to death[/b]. [editline]e[/editline] Finally, a quick note, legalizing child labor in America or Canada would have basically no effect at all. Our productivity dwarfs the countries in which they use child labor as a means to survival, the government came in and said "We're ending child labor", when in fact, they had nothing at all to do with it. They might have swept out the remnants of child labor left in society at the time, but it was already on a decline at the time they'd passed it.

It will never work because quite frankly, it's an employer's economy at the moment. There is no shortage of unemployed people wanting to work, and they will be forced to devalue themselves in order to be employed.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32300671]I know a way to create more higher paying jobs yawnman, raise the minimum wage! [editline]15th September 2011[/editline] Shit, you'll be improving the living standards of them as well[/QUOTE] That doesn't create higher paying jobs and it doesn't increase living standards either. Learn how minimum wage and inflation work.

[QUOTE=NorthernFall;32304957]There is no shortage of unemployed people wanting to work, and they will be forced to devalue themselves in order to be employed.[/QUOTE] Even in the scenario you gave, there is more to gain from earning an income than be earning no income. With minimum wage, they make nothing. With, they make something. They are likely to make an amount equal to what they produce, and it's not that they will, but their wage will approach that value with time.

[QUOTE=Pepin;32306445]Even in the scenario you gave, there is more to gain from earning an income than be earning no income. With minimum wage, they make nothing. With, they make something. They are likely to make an amount equal to what they produce, and it's not that they will, but their wage will approach that value with time.[/QUOTE] And there is more to lose with no minimum wage than there is with a minimum wage. They are "more likely to make an amount equal to what they produce"? I cannot think of a time or a case where a minimum wage didn't exist and that's what happened, so why would it start now?

Yes lets get rid of minimum wage so we can pay people just enough to be homeless. But it's ok because they're still making money.

minimum wage is 7.50 in the US ? jesus dicks

[QUOTE=yawmwen;32306074]That doesn't create higher paying jobs and it doesn't increase living standards either. Learn how minimum wage and inflation work.[/QUOTE] Well minimum wage should have at least went up with inflation. Because it really hasn't been updated to account for it people are having harder times being payed it.

[QUOTE=Batmoutarde;32307910]minimum wage is 7.50 in the US ? jesus dicks[/QUOTE]That's the federal minimum wage, and it's actually 7.25. Most states have a higher minimum wage than that. The US does tend to have less taxes than most countries though.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32309125]Well minimum wage should have at least went up with inflation. Because it really hasn't been updated to account for it people are having harder times being payed it.[/QUOTE] Washington States minimum wage went up about a quarter to rise with inflation. Most states continually bump minimum wage up every couple years for inflation. Private sector tends to do it better though, most jobs have a contractual yearly raise that coincides with inflation. [QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32310505]That's the federal minimum wage, and it's actually 7.25. Most states have a higher minimum wage than that. The US does tend to have less taxes than most countries though.[/QUOTE] [img]http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.gif[/img] Green = States with a higher minimum wage than federal Blue = States with minimum wage equal to federal Red = States with lower minimum wage than federal Yellow = States with no minimum wage law Orange = American Somoa, has it's own special minimum rate laws Honestly I don't see why you would have a law for lower minimum wage than federal, since when federal and state minimum wages aren't equal the highest one is law.

It's good to see Somoa has it's own law because there was a whole incident where they decided to force the Federal rate, which caused most everyone to lose their job there. It's easy to say that raising the minimum wage to $100 an hour would put people out of work, and as far as Somoa went, the difference to be made up was far too much. Perhaps not as drastically as increasing ten fold, but enough to cause huge economic issues.

OP the idea that all countries must go through a period of industrialisation has been discredited by academics for decades.