I worked at Homebase and I sure as hell hated getting paid less then the older people for doing hard ass work.
i have read this entire thread and not once have i seen a good answer to the question "how do you expect people to work for less money than what they need to survive, pepin?"
WHY NOT
imo political crap is a great way to become a bitter, hateful man for no reason
[QUOTE=Vince323;32344938]i have read this entire thread and not once have i seen a good answer to the question "how do you expect people to work for less money than what they need to survive, pepin?"
WHY NOT[/QUOTE]The general idea is that by reducing minimum wage, the amount that companies charge for stuff will go down, so the cost of living will go down.
Pepin has a point, black people had a real time easy time staying employed back when we didn't have to pay them as much.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32345471]The general idea is that by reducing minimum wage, the amount that companies charge for stuff will go down, so the cost of living will go down.[/QUOTE] Yea but factors that depend on resources and skilled labor will make sure it doesn't go down evenly or that things that don't depend on minimum wage workers will stay the same price meaning that worker wont be able to afford a lot of things they once were. Not to mention not everyone will lower there prices just because they don't have to pay there workers as much.
Just no. Bad wages are one of the biggest problems in society today; you want to break one of few things preventing it from being fucked over a little bit more?
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32345836]Yea but factors that depend on resources and skilled labor will make sure it doesn't go down evenly or that things that don't depend on minimum wage workers will stay the same price meaning that worker wont be able to afford things like housing. Not to mention not everyone will lower there prices just because they don't have to pay there workers as much.[/QUOTE]Again, the idea is that anybody that doesn't lower their prices will eventually have to so that they can compete. Of course, this doesn't take into consideration trusts and many other factors.
Obviously the key is giving the employee the power to negotiate fair wages relative to the value they add to a company, but in practice abolition of one of the few things standing in the way of poverty is a very dangerous game.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32345911]Again, the idea is that anybody that doesn't lower their prices will eventually have to so that they can compete. Of course, this doesn't take into consideration trusts and many other factors.[/QUOTE] Yea but even even without trusts and even if every product or service relied hugely on minimum wage workers the conversion of lowering pay to lowering product and service wouldn't be the same. Sure it might help those in the middle to upper middle class range but for many making enough money while being in a minimum wage job is required so in the end it would create a bigger division between the classes.
[QUOTE=Vince323;32344938]i have read this entire thread and not once have i seen a good answer to the question "how do you expect people to work for less money than what they need to survive, pepin?"
WHY NOT[/QUOTE]
Give me a criteria that I'd have to meet where you'd be satisfied with the answer. I did mention something about supporting a negative income tax, but I'll limit myself to just talking about minimum wages.
Damn these filthy communists, I want to pay my slav-I mean employees a nickel per hour to pick up my cotton fields ! :v:
Just want to know how this is going to help that one guy that gets his very 1st job at £1.48 an hour.
Get real minimum wage as it is, is stupidly low especially under 18.
No, seriously, if you don't put a minimum wage no one will have a reason to pay people more than a nickel.
To the above couple above posts. Why do 95% of jobs in the US pay above minimum wage. Why is the average salary far above minimum wage?
Because minimum wage is here as a reference. Better jobs = better salaries, above minimum wage.
No minimum wage, no reference, no reason to give more money. Even if they DID gave more money, it would indeed not be 1 cent per hour but instead 2. Big fucking deal.
[QUOTE=Pepin;32346309]To the above couple above posts. Why do 95% of jobs in the US pay above minimum wage. Why is the average salary far above minimum wage?[/QUOTE] We already went over this. The average person doesn't have a job putting tooth past caps on tubes. Theres no reason to pay more then minimum wage because you want a finite number of workers unlike wanting people to by a product where more is always better.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32346134]Yea but even even without trusts and even if every product or service relied hugely on minimum wage workers the conversion of lowering pay to lowering product and service wouldn't be the same. Sure it might help those in the middle to upper middle class range but for many making enough money while being in a minimum wage job is required so in the end it would create a bigger division between the classes.[/QUOTE]And a division between classes is bad... how?
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32346476]And a division between classes is bad... how?[/QUOTE] How is it bad that the difference between poor and rich is increasing and the amount of middle class decreasing making it harder for a poor person to become rich? I don't really know.
[QUOTE=superkickass]
People who disagree with pepin can help by adding more clips[/QUOTE]
Or you could, you know, grow a pair and actually write why you disagree instead of shitposting
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32346476]And a division between classes is bad... how?[/QUOTE]
Because the gap is already incredibly large?
[QUOTE=Pepin;32346309]To the above couple above posts. Why do 95% of jobs in the US pay above minimum wage. Why is the average salary far above minimum wage?[/QUOTE]
Minimum wage is a base. If you work in fast food, you typically get paid minimum wage until you get a slight raise (about 10 cents) as an incentive, and a few more from there. I'm sure the system is the same elsewhere. Your mysterious un-cited study should show me the statistics of how many people make within 20% of minimum wage.
Minimum wage is there for a reason there are issues with it though, but you can't just scrap it.
Just adding something iv'e always though to be a rubbish justification.
It don't happen in every job but a hell of a lot do this here in the UK.
An adult and a teenager both employed to do the exact same job, doing the same hours, they have the same job title, there is [U]nothing[/U] that seperates the 2 except their age.
So why should the teenager be paid less than the adult for doing the same job? The justification that's used most of the time is that the government allow this to happen so that it makes teenagers a better option to emply by removing their lack of skill and making them cheap labour, now discrimination is not allowed in this country, so how can this still be happening, it's age discimination which by law is not allowed in any way shape or form.
It does not affect me now (though it did), but some people i worked with while doing my college course fell foul to this, 1 person did the same job as I and was just as good as me but was a school leaver, he got paid a pound less per hour than me, minimum wage should be 1 level, no differnt level for your age.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32346661]Because the gap is already incredibly large?[/QUOTE]So the gap is bad... because the gap is large?
There is no way classes separation will definitely be removed - you can't have only rich people.
Decreasing it and making sure as much people as possible get enough money to live well under a roof with a full fridge is mandatory though.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32346730]So the gap is bad... because the gap is large?[/QUOTE] Have you taken 8th grade history? I'm not trying to insult but theres a reason economic equality is one of the biggest problems a country faces. Its the difference between having a chance at actually doing something with your life and being destined to either be super poor or super rich. Its the cause of the french revolution. If you know anything about economics you know a big class gap is bad.
It's also not morally acceptable to leave people without a roof. Being able to live correctly without starving and without having to live outside is a human right, not a commodity.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32346730]So the gap is bad... because the gap is large?[/QUOTE]
Yes. You believe a society that consists almost entirely of rich and poor with no middle class is okay?
[QUOTE=fenwick;32346688]Minimum wage is a base. If you work in fast food, you typically get paid minimum wage until you get a slight raise (about 10 cents) as an incentive, and a few more from there. I'm sure the system is the same elsewhere. Your mysterious un-cited study should show me the statistics of how many people make within 20% of minimum wage.[/QUOTE]
It's from the DOL and I've cited it constantly throughout the thread, so much that I've felt the need not to include the citation. It is 95% if you consider state minimum wage and 97.8% going just by federal minimum wage.
Clearly this idea that wages will be pushed down as far as they can go without the minimum wage is implausible because through the same logic you must assume that everyone at this moment would be making close to minimum wage with few exceptions.
I don't know what to make of your assertion. Are you saying that without the minimum wage, people would start out working for free? Are you following any of these arguments about making an amount relative to what you produce?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32346355]Because minimum wage is here as a reference. Better jobs = better salaries, above minimum wage.
No minimum wage, no reference, no reason to give more money. Even if they DID gave more money, it would indeed not be 1 cent per hour but instead 2. Big fucking deal.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32346408]We already went over this. The average person doesn't have a job putting tooth past caps on tubes. Theres no reason to pay more then minimum wage because you want a finite number of workers unlike wanting people to by a product where more is always better.[/QUOTE]
Uh...
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32346835]It's also not morally acceptable to leave people without a roof. Being able to live correctly without starving and without having to live outside is a human right, not a commodity.[/QUOTE]
Yet having in place a policy that makes the means of survival for the unskilled more difficult is neither morally correct.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32346984]Yes. You believe a society that consists almost entirely of rich and poor with no middle class is okay?[/QUOTE]
Well you're committing to the fallacy that one person's gain is another's loss, but even ignoring that, would your prefer
1. All classes to gradually move up in their standard of living and the gap is lessened
2. All classes have a large increase in their standard of living, but the greatened
[QUOTE=Pepin;32347012]Uh...[/quote] Not an argument.
[quote]Yet having in place a policy that makes the means of survival for the unskilled more difficult is neither morally correct.
[/quote] You haven't proved that yet.
[quote]1. All classes to gradually move up in their standard of living and the gap is lessened
2. All classes have a large increase in their standard of living, but the greatened[/QUOTE] How would this even be possible? How would the standard of living rise if more people are poor? It would also slow down technological advancement since people can't afford the latest of technologies except for a small percent.
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