[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32276519]I suppose nobody arguing in favor of minimum wage has heard of unions.[/QUOTE]
What's A Union???
[QUOTE=DrgnRebrn;32276533]What's A Union???[/QUOTE]
The trolling is so obvious, how are you not banned yet?
Another great wonder:
[QUOTE=DrgnRebrn;32276302]thank u detective unknowndude
caught that fucker in a lie. fuck that fucking fucker. can a mod ban larparnar for lying about his internet speed?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Pepin;32270577]How so? Can you provide an argument?[/QUOTE]
a company could either pay a laborer a high amount for less profit, or a low amount for next to nothing.
Heard of sweat shops?
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32276519]I suppose nobody arguing in favor of minimum wage has heard of unions.[/QUOTE]
yeah unions are sort of how the minimum wage gets raised with time
[QUOTE=Lankist;32276579]yeah unions are sort of how the minimum wage gets raised with time[/QUOTE]
Pretty much this. The 8 hour work day, free weekends, and the minimum wage all came about thanks to unions.
Pepin, I don't think you actually understand the concept of minimum wage beyond its theory. May I remind you of the following:
-These are people you're talking about. Real human beings. Like you and me.
You need to understand that there is a difference between theory and real life. Theory exists because in real life there are too many variables to appropriately scale something. In the theoretical world, all problems are simple and easily solved because there is just one variable. For example, theoretically, removing the minimum wage is a good idea, as it allows employers to employ more people and therefore creating jobs. In the real world, however, there is more than just the employer's point of view, there's also the minimum wage worker who already works 2 jobs for 15 hours a day and can barely feed his family. If the minimum wage is removed, what would happen to this worker and his family? There are about 8 million people in the United States who are like this worker. What will happen to the 8 million people and their families once they cannot afford food or lodging? Are these 8 million people and their families just shit out of luck and have to deal with it because "well, that's trade"?
[QUOTE=HitlerWasADem;32276632]Pepin, I don't think you actually understand the concept of minimum wage beyond its theory. May I remind you of the following:
-These are people you're talking about. Real human beings. Like you and me.
You need to understand that there is a difference between theory and real life. Theory exists because in real life there are too many variables to appropriately scale something. In the theoretical world, all problems are simple and easily solved because there is just one variable. For example, theoretically, removing the minimum wage is a good idea, as it allows employers to employ more people and therefore creating jobs. In the real world, however, there is more than just the employer's point of view, there's also the minimum wage worker who already works 2 jobs for 15 hours a day and can barely feed his family. If the minimum wage is removed, what would happen to this worker and his family? There are about 8 million people in the United States who are like this worker. What will happen to the 8 million people and their families once they cannot afford food or lodging? Are these 8 million people and their families just shit out of luck and have to deal with it because "well, that's trade"?[/QUOTE]
Well that's when you put all the poor people on ships to Australia/in debtor prisons.
we should bring back debtor's prisons
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32276014][img]http://i.cubeupload.com/D6PgTa.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
I don't see what is wrong with illegal immigrants getting legal or illegal jobs. I refer to illegal labor as people working below minimum wage. And I already I believe I made an argument as to child labor, though keep in mind I mean where it is needed. I wouldn't be against child labor in France.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32276141]Children need education and fun, not hard labor. What kind of heartless person are you?[/QUOTE]
Yet, if you manage to get child labor laws passed in many of these places, that's is not going to be the result. Instead, child prostitution, starvation, a harder time living, and more hard labor. It's not as those the alternatives to the sweatshops is school, instead it is some farming job or something similar.
[QUOTE=Pepin;32276769]Yet, if you manage to get child labor laws passed in many of these places, that's is not going to be the result. Instead, child prostitution, starvation, a harder time living, and more hard labor. It's not as those the alternatives to the sweatshops is school, instead it is some farming job or something similar.[/QUOTE]
You know, I seem to recall there was a time where we had child labor, incredibly long work hours, and no minimum wage. Now what was that like, hmm?
Oh, right:
[img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/child-labor2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://webs.rps205.com/curriculum/ssandvoc/images/B1EC19324A4340638C4457E577997CC5.jpg[/img]
they don't all look that bad hell the one on the far left looks like he's having a blast
[QUOTE=Pepin;32276769]I don't see what is wrong with illegal immigrants getting legal or illegal jobs. I refer to illegal labor as people working below minimum wage. And I already I believe I made an argument as to child labor, though keep in mind I mean where it is needed. I wouldn't be against child labor in France.[/QUOTE]
Why wouldn't you support child labour in the united states then?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32276840]You know, I seem to recall there was a time where we had child labor, incredibly long work hours, and no minimum wage. Now what was that like, hmm?
Oh, right:
[img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/child-labor2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://webs.rps205.com/curriculum/ssandvoc/images/B1EC19324A4340638C4457E577997CC5.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Because we have the same industry regulation as they did back then.
[QUOTE=WastedJamacan;32276916]Because we have the same industry regulation as they did back then.[/QUOTE]
That's pretty much what people like Ron Paul and other Libertarians advocate, the government having as little to do with regulation as possible.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32276972]That's pretty much what people like Ron Paul and other Libertarians advocate, the government having as little to do with regulation as possible.[/QUOTE]
I guess I consider myself conservative, but there are somethings that Libertarians go too far with. I think we could have no/low minimum wage but we would need to keep industry regulation.
[QUOTE=WastedJamacan;32276916]Because we have the same industry regulation as they did back then.[/QUOTE]
guess what one of the primary regulations is
[editline]13th September 2011[/editline]
hint: it ends in "inimum wage"
[QUOTE=Lankist;32277061]guess what one of the primary regulations is
[editline]13th September 2011[/editline]
hint: it ends in "inimum wage"[/QUOTE]
And begins with Minimum Wag.
[QUOTE=Lankist;32277061]guess what one of the primary regulations is
[editline]13th September 2011[/editline]
hint: it ends in "inimum wage"[/QUOTE]
Then we remove or lower it. But just changing one doesn't change all the others, does it?
[QUOTE=WastedJamacan;32277079]Then we remove or lower it. But just changing one doesn't change all the others, does it?[/QUOTE]
it sort of does
if there is no guaranteed wage then unskilled workers will take the best paying job they can find, even if it violates health or safety standards.
they might also need to put their kids to work too just to survive
that's sort of why we have a minimum wage
[QUOTE=Lankist;32276579]yeah unions are sort of how the minimum wage gets raised with time[/QUOTE]Then why do we have the laws if unions are already doing that?
[QUOTE=WastedJamacan;32277057]I guess I consider myself conservative, but there are somethings that Libertarians go too far with. I think we could have no/low minimum wage but we would need to keep industry regulation.[/QUOTE]
You realize that we have a comparatively low amount of regulation when stacked up against other developed countries, like Norway or the UK.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32277086]Then why do we have the laws if unions are already doing that?[/QUOTE]
the unions are the ones responsible for most of the regulatory laws existing
they don't just go away once they succeed, either. they're also the ones responsible from keeping greedy fucks from nullifying the regulations
[QUOTE=WastedJamacan;32277079]Then we remove or lower it. But just changing one doesn't change all the others, does it?[/QUOTE]
Again, no one seems to be able to answer this reasonably. So if the minimum wage is lowered, how do you expect people to live on lower than $8/hr when they are already having a hard time with that amount?
[QUOTE=Lankist;32277125]the unions are the ones responsible for most of the regulatory laws existing
they don't just go away once they succeed, either. they're also the ones responsible from keeping greedy fucks from nullifying the regulations[/QUOTE]That still doesn't explain why we need the laws if we already have unions.
I know for a fact, that if there were no minimum wage in place, my work would pay me almost nothing.
I've worked there for 2 years and i only make 7.60, 7.25 is the minimum here.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;32277160]That still doesn't explain why we need the laws if we already have unions.[/QUOTE]
oh my god right now
[QUOTE=Desolategrunt;32276565]a company could either pay a laborer a high amount for less profit, or a low amount for next to nothing.
Heard of sweat shops?[/QUOTE]
Already been over that. Look back some posts, sweatshops actually some of the best jobs in those countries.
[QUOTE=HitlerWasADem;32276632]You need to understand that there is a difference between theory and real life. Theory exists because in real life there are too many variables to appropriately scale something. In the theoretical world, all problems are simple and easily solved because there is just one variable. For example, theoretically, removing the minimum wage is a good idea, as it allows employers to employ more people and therefore creating jobs. In the real world, however, there is more than just the employer's point of view, there's also the minimum wage worker who already works 2 jobs for 15 hours a day and can barely feed his family. If the minimum wage is removed, what would happen to this worker and his family? There are about 8 million people in the United States who are like this worker. What will happen to the 8 million people and their families once they cannot afford food or lodging? Are these 8 million people and their families just shit out of luck and have to deal with it because "well, that's trade"?[/QUOTE]
I don't understand you telling me it is too complex. There are a number of studies that find that the cost of living varies substantially in cities and towns very close to each other. With all the complexities, how does it make sense to boil it down to one number that is supposed to work for everyone? It's been noted that the cost of living in New York city could be no means be covered by minimum wage.
Also, what about the unemployed who aren't able to get jobs because of the minimum wage? Everyone seems to forget about them, probably because you don't see them. As far as the supposed 8 million with families, I provided a response to something like that somewhere back. 2.2% of Americans are on minimum wage, half of them are teenagers, the rest are mostly people in their 20's. Some likely have a family, yet still, what would they do? That's their decision, some might find a higher paying job, some might negotiate with their boss, some might scratch by with the pay cut.
Hey OP
[QUOTE=Lankist;32272581]So you're saying a company would have more incentive to pay statistically ridiculously high wages than to maintain artificially low wages and compete through the literally hundreds of other means that do not benefit workers, such as supply control and product pricing.
You should have paid as much attention during econ101 as you did pls101.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32277127]Again, no one seems to be able to answer this reasonably. So if the minimum wage is lowered, how do you expect people to live on lower than $8/hr when they are already having a hard time with that amount?[/QUOTE]
What are typical apartment rental prices?
[QUOTE=Lankist;32277237]Hey OP[/QUOTE]
Already replied to that
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1125010?p=32272827&viewfull=1#post32272827[/url]
If I miss something, I'm likely not ignoring it, I more just missed it because I'm the only one arguing against minimum wage and the thread can go pretty fast at times.
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