• Being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean you're rational
    138 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mingebox;49804696]I cease to exist.[/QUOTE] But what will that be like? To suddenly have no perspective on the universe?
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804725]But what will that be like? To suddenly have no perspective on the universe?[/QUOTE] "In what way does a car drive if you remove the engine?" it doesn't
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804678]You have a better chance at getting a question correct if you guess the answer than if you didn't guess it.[/QUOTE] Well no actually, because in the case of religion it can actively stifle searching for real answers. You're thinking of this idea as if it's in a vacuum rather than in the context of society and how it has very real impacts on science and discovery. Religion doesn't just propose a possible idea, it makes up an idea and then demands everybody believe on penalty of punishment.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49804390]The fundamental premise of Catholicism is that people can use reason to work out the existence of god instead of relying solely on mystical revelations and shit. A massive chunk of it is based in Greek philosophy. [/QUOTE] Buuuut you see, there's no way to use logic and reason to come to the conclusion that god(s) exist. Because well, there's no evidence what so ever, nor is he (she, it, they) required to exist. Calling it "rational" doesn't make it so, it isn't. Plus you're actively trying to obscure, for some reason, the fact that Catholicism, like any other religion, requires you to believe not just in [b][i]a[/i][/b] god. It's a certain specific god, God of the Bible, God of Abraham. So not only people "can" use reason to work out the existence of god, they also "can" work out the existence of that one god. And that's patently false as Yahweh/Trinity doesn't exist. [QUOTE=nerdster409;49804453]What if those beliefs do not conflict with or have no relevance to current scientific understanding?[/QUOTE] Then they're wholly irrelevant. [QUOTE=nerdster409;49804725]But what will that be like? To suddenly have no perspective on the universe?[/QUOTE] Exactly like it was before I was born.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804725]But what will that be like? To suddenly have no perspective on the universe?[/QUOTE] It'll be just like before I was born.
Just so that I can get the bigger picture on this issue... I believe in science and the scientific method. If something discovered through scientific observation and testing conflicts with my current ideas, I will admit that my ideas were disproved and amend the idea. However, until a time comes where my idea is disproved, I will hold on to that idea. Does this make me irrational?
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804912]Just so that I can get the bigger picture on this issue... I believe in science and the scientific method. If something discovered through scientific observation and testing conflicts with my current ideas, I will admit that my ideas were disproved and amend the idea. However, until a time comes where my idea is disproved, I will hold on to that idea. Does this make me irrational?[/QUOTE] Yes because why the hell would you hold onto an idea that has no proof at all. Most people would consider someone who thinks unicorns exist to be nuts so why should you be any different?
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49804930]Yes because why the hell would you hold onto an idea that has no proof at all. Most people would consider someone who thinks unicorns exist to be nuts so why should you be any different?[/QUOTE] You mean we haven't sufficiently proven that they don't exist?
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804954]You mean we haven't sufficiently proven that they don't exist?[/QUOTE] supernatural claims are unfalsifiable by nature they can't be tested, and anything that can't be tested can't be disproved.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49804971]supernatural claims are unfalsifiable by nature they can't be tested, and anything that can't be tested can't be disproved.[/QUOTE] You may not be able to disprove the existence of something supernatural, but you can at least support the hypothesis that said supernatural thing doesn't exist. Either way, it looks like I have to make some changes.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804912]Just so that I can get the bigger picture on this issue... I believe in science and the scientific method. If something discovered through scientific observation and testing conflicts with my current ideas, I will admit that my ideas were disproved and amend the idea. However, until a time comes where my idea is disproved, I will hold on to that idea. Does this make me irrational?[/QUOTE] If you have no logical basis for that idea, then it's pretty much just wishful thinking.
This is exactly why I don't under circumstances post anything in any related to science, at all ever, the math goes over my head, (I'm one of the people who was born stupid, that's my limits). The other reason is that, I have this stupid stupid mental issue where I only believe in things I understand, it's that annoying thing where you want to a part of the conversation despite the fact you know that you know nothing about the topic at hand, but use vaguely related things you do know about to fill in text. I wish it wasn't so fucking hard to accept things, I mean they would use some sort psychology to deal with this issue. I mean it's more psychology than anything else. I think it could be an ego thing, where people like me need to think they understand the world. Acceptance is a very very hard thing for people to deal with, no one wants to be told they're not the center of what they perceive as the universe.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804912]Just so that I can get the bigger picture on this issue... I believe in science and the scientific method. If something discovered through scientific observation and testing conflicts with my current ideas, I will admit that my ideas were disproved and amend the idea. However, until a time comes where my idea is disproved, I will hold on to that idea. Does this make me irrational?[/QUOTE] It's OK to have a theory on something yet to be explained (and being a theory, it's obviously what you think is most likely correct), but not to assume/imply it's the truth without real proof (scientific method in action). It's rational to an extent! A lack of counter-proof does not validate an empty claim, which is the part a LOT of people trip up on when coming up with bullshit conspiracy alternative science. It's even used in arguments when there IS proof of it being wrong, because it's not what they want to believe.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804912]Just so that I can get the bigger picture on this issue... I believe in science and the scientific method. If something discovered through scientific observation and testing conflicts with my current ideas, I will admit that my ideas were disproved and amend the idea. However, until a time comes where my idea is disproved, I will hold on to that idea. Does this make me irrational?[/QUOTE] Let's test your way of thinking. For no reason whatsoever I believe that there is a flying invisible and untouchable tea cup in the sky. You can't disprove that it is there because it has no effect on anything around it and you can't see it. basically you can't make an observation which is needed for the scientific method. There is no evidence of it being there either but I'm gonna assume it's there until someone presents me with proof of it not being there. Does this sound rational to you?
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;49803644]It's irrational to think that using rational arguments can persuade people out of an irrational opinion. But we still try anyway.[/QUOTE] And never stop trying. I think I've posted the same sentiment before but there are a lot of sincere religious people who have (to them) a rational basis for their beliefs. I used to be one of them, and arguing with you guys about creationism and theism years ago helped me find the right reasons to abandon my faith. I no longer have to build walls in my head to help keep logical inconsistencies at bay. It's great, and I owe a lot to facepunch atheists who continuously called me out on my bullshit. Never stop trying.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49804610]You aren't even a bit curious as to the answer? I know I've pondered the question "What happens to my perspective (or spirit, or self) when I die?" multiple times in my life.[/QUOTE] Start with an observation not with an question, what observations can you make here?
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;49805274]And never stop trying. I think I've posted the same sentiment before but there are a lot of sincere religious people who have (to them) a rational basis for their beliefs. I used to be one of them, and arguing with you guys about creationism and theism years ago helped me find the right reasons to abandon my faith. I no longer have to build walls in my head to help keep logical inconsistencies at bay. It's great, and I owe a lot to facepunch atheists who continuously called me out on my bullshit. Never stop trying.[/QUOTE] [img]https://facepunch.com/image.php?u=36208&dateline=1260953423[/img] Well, maybe we went a bit too far.
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;49805274]And never stop trying. I think I've posted the same sentiment before but there are a lot of sincere religious people who have (to them) a rational basis for their beliefs. I used to be one of them, and arguing with you guys about creationism and theism years ago helped me find the right reasons to abandon my faith. I no longer have to build walls in my head to help keep logical inconsistencies at bay. It's great, and I owe a lot to facepunch atheists who continuously called me out on my bullshit. Never stop trying.[/QUOTE] The strange thing is the opposite happened to me, I was an atheist for about a decade before I decided to settle on catholicism a few weeks ago. Needless to say that following the philosophy has done me well, regardless of the fact god exists or not.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805346]The strange thing is the opposite happened to me, I was an atheist for about a decade before I decided to settle on catholicism a few weeks ago. Needless to say that following the philosophy has done me well, regardless of the fact god exists or not.[/QUOTE] whatever floats your boat
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805346]The strange thing is the opposite happened to me, I was an atheist for about a decade before I decided to settle on catholicism a few weeks ago. Needless to say that following the philosophy has done me well, regardless of the fact god exists or not.[/QUOTE] I guess that explains why you've been going on crusades defending the pope and the Church in SH recently. If you wouldn't mind, could you clearly explain why it is you believe Catholicism is correct? I haven't been able to find a cogent explanation from you yet in this thread.
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49805392]I guess that explains why you've been going on crusades defending the pope and the Church in SH recently. If you wouldn't mind, could you clearly explain why it is you believe Catholicism is correct? I haven't been able to find a cogent explanation from you yet in this thread.[/QUOTE] Well much like some people believe in liberalism, or stoicism, or the benefits of communism, I think that catholicism has a generally better understanding of human nature than most secular philosophies. Priests have to listen to people in the confession box who explain what they did, why, and how they fell. Continue this for twenty centuries and add in the fact that clergymen are fluent in multiple languages, educated in philosophy, and the fact catholicism is flexible, means that often they have a good understanding of people and what they are like. It's a global religion with a deep history and interactions with virtually every society on the planet. The practical benefits of it are rather decent as well, given that as an institution it has supported numerous charities, provided healthcare, supported science since the middle ages, and the like. There's also mentioning that catholics tend to have lower suicide rates, which is of additional importance to me.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805479]Well much like some people believe in liberalism, or stoicism, or the benefits of communism, I think that catholicism has a generally better understanding of human nature than most secular philosophies. Priests have to listen to people in the confession box who explain what they did, why, and how they fell. Continue this for twenty centuries and add in the fact that clergymen are fluent in multiple languages, educated in philosophy, and the fact catholicism is flexible, means that often they have a good understanding of people and what they are like. It's a global religion with a deep history and interactions with virtually every society on the planet. The practical benefits of it are rather decent as well, given that as an institution it has supported numerous charities, provided healthcare, supported science since the middle ages, and the like. There's also mentioning that catholics tend to have lower suicide rates, which is of additional importance to me.[/QUOTE] The only reason catholicism has a lower suicide rate is because it bullies its followers with threats of eternal torment.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805479]Well much like some people believe in liberalism, or stoicism, or the benefits of communism, I think that catholicism has a generally better understanding of human nature than most secular philosophies. Priests have to listen to people in the confession box who explain what they did, why, and how they fell. Continue this for twenty centuries and add in the fact that clergymen are fluent in multiple languages, educated in philosophy, and the fact catholicism is flexible, means that often they have a good understanding of people and what they are like. It's a global religion with a deep history and interactions with virtually every society on the planet. The practical benefits of it are rather decent as well, given that as an institution it has supported numerous charities, provided healthcare, supported science since the middle ages, and the like. There's also mentioning that catholics tend to have lower suicide rates, which is of additional importance to me.[/QUOTE] So your "belief" in the Catholic Church has nothing to do with the actual validity of its teachings. Rather, you listed the supposed benefits that it would give if people believed in it. Let me come at it from a different angle: do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed miracles, rose from the dead, and flew into space (heaven)?
[QUOTE=Ltp0wer;49805274]And never stop trying. I think I've posted the same sentiment before but there are a lot of sincere religious people who have (to them) a rational basis for their beliefs. I used to be one of them, and arguing with you guys about creationism and theism years ago helped me find the right reasons to abandon my faith. I no longer have to build walls in my head to help keep logical inconsistencies at bay. It's great, and I owe a lot to facepunch atheists who continuously called me out on my bullshit. Never stop trying.[/QUOTE]10 years ago I believed in a God and that the mind went to a higher plane of existence after death , but then very smart people outside of FP came up with some arguments for why this isn't true, that happened at a time when I hadn't quite got over my grandmother's death, which was my first experience with the death of someone I knew very well, it was horrible, but it made me realise how stupid I was to believe in something which couldn't be proven. I now have an overwhelming fear of death in certain situations, but I guess that's what atheistism is about, cold hard reality.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49805505]The only reason catholicism has a lower suicide rate is because it bullies its followers with threats of eternal torment.[/QUOTE] Or it could be related to the rest of the above points I made which is important to understanding why there is less suicide. Both catholics and protestants are told that suicide is a mortal sin, but catholics have less suicide. Why is this?
[QUOTE=RoboChimp;49805537]I now have an overwhelming fear of death in certain situations, but I guess that's what atheistism is about, cold hard reality.[/QUOTE] Funny that, I'm the opposite, I find the idea of an eternal afterlife terrifying
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805542]Or it could be related to the rest of the above points I made which is important to understanding why there is less suicide. Both catholics and protestants are told that suicide is a mortal sin, but catholics have less suicide. Why is this?[/QUOTE] Because Catholicism applies a lot more direct control to their members than protestant churches, some protestant churches being more liberal than others.
[QUOTE=Rixxz2;49805662]Funny that, I'm the opposite, I find the idea of an eternal afterlife terrifying[/QUOTE]I can't say I'll ever understand that perspective. I would love to live forever.
[QUOTE=RoboChimp;49805712]I can't say I'll ever understand that perspective. I would love to live forever.[/QUOTE] Well you could always live forever in the fucking hell because you didn't chose the right god or didn't chose at all.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;49805690]Because Catholicism applies a lot more direct control to their members than protestant churches, some protestant churches being more liberal than others.[/QUOTE] The more common and probably (in my biased view) explanation (advocated since the 19th century by Durkheim) is that Catholicism is generally more community based. Catholic communities tend to have less social isolation and there is a bigger focus on helping people through good deeds (whereas in Protestantism the view is that grace cannot just be earned through good deeds). Helping people in times of trouble is consequently more likely than in Protestantism due to stronger community ties. Combined with confession (where a Catholic would regularly talk about themselves to their priest) which is more common in Catholicism, it means that the social isolation of Catholics tends to be considerably less compared to Protestants and thus suicidal people tend to fall through the gaps less. They are more likely to interact with social networks on a frequent basis, and generally the people who are most likely to commit suicide are the isolated ones who have nobody to talk to or receive support from. The same is noticed among other religions where community support and social organisations/networks are broader and offer support to the suffering.
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