• Being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean you're rational
    138 replies, posted
Are you either unwilling or are you unable to explain why you believe the doctrines of the Church to be actually true rather than just useful?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805743]The more common and probably (in my biased view) explanation (advocated since the 19th century by Durkheim) is that Catholicism is generally more community based. Catholic communities tend to have less social isolation and there is a bigger focus on helping people through good deeds (whereas in Protestantism the view is that grace cannot just be earned through good deeds). Helping people in times of trouble is consequently more likely than in Protestantism due to stronger community ties. Combined with confession (where a Catholic would regularly talk about themselves to their priest) which is more common in Catholicism, it means that the social isolation of Catholics tends to be considerably less compared to Protestants and thus suicidal people tend to fall through the gaps less. They are more likely to interact with social networks on a frequent basis, and generally the people who are most likely to commit suicide are the isolated ones who have nobody to talk to or receive support from. The same is noticed among other religions where community support and social organisations/networks are broader and offer support to the suffering.[/QUOTE] I understand acknowledging some of the societal and community benefits from religion but how do believe in things like transubstantiation?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805743]The more common and probably (in my biased view) explanation (advocated since the 19th century by Durkheim) is that Catholicism is generally more community based. Catholic communities tend to have less social isolation and there is a bigger focus on helping people through good deeds (whereas in Protestantism the view is that grace cannot just be earned through good deeds). Helping people in times of trouble is consequently more likely than in Protestantism due to stronger community ties. Combined with confession (where a Catholic would regularly talk about themselves to their priest) which is more common in Catholicism, it means that the social isolation of Catholics tends to be considerably less compared to Protestants and thus suicidal people tend to fall through the gaps less. They are more likely to interact with social networks on a frequent basis, and generally the people who are most likely to commit suicide are the isolated ones who have nobody to talk to or receive support from. The same is noticed among other religions where community support and social organisations/networks are broader and offer support to the suffering.[/QUOTE] As a man living in a primarily Catholic country I can tell you that all of the stuff you just said is a fat load of shit.
Sobotnik, what do you think about Catholic Church's being tax-exempt? Surely it would benefit all of society if they would be taxed, right? And while there may be some positives to religion, you have to admit there's a long laundry list of negatives and the negatives definitely outweigh the postives by a long shot.
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49805759]Are you either unwilling or are you unable to explain why you believe the doctrines of the Church to be actually true rather than just useful?[/QUOTE] I explained earlier why I liked it, primarily because of the understanding of human nature it has. [QUOTE=Ltp0wer;49805794]I understand acknowledging some of the societal and community benefits from religion but how do believe in things like transubstantiation?[/QUOTE] In Transubstantiation, the actual empirical reality of the substance (i.e what you can detect by taste, sight, instrumental detection, everything essentially detectable by the senses) doesn't actually change. As in, it doesn't literally turn into physical blood and flesh in the mouth. [QUOTE=Killer900;49805860]Sobotnik, what do you think about Catholic Church's being tax-exempt? Surely it would benefit all of society if they would be taxed, right? And while there may be some positives to religion, you have to admit there's a long laundry list of negatives and the negatives definitely outweigh the postives by a long shot.[/QUOTE] Well I suppose you can tax the church if you really want to, but I don't see why you should since it is a form of charity (and the money raised wouldn't be significant either since its a nonprofit). Charitable organisations don't get taxed. Like, if you provide a form of social benefit to the community (such as churches, healthcare, soup kitchens, education, etc) then generally the government is willing to allow you to remain untaxed because the purpose of taxation is to use the proceeds for the public. If a religious organisation provides public services to people then it doesn't make sense taxing them if they are already doing that part for you. [QUOTE=Damjen;49805850]As a man living in a primarily Catholic country I can tell you that all of the stuff you just said is a fat load of shit.[/QUOTE] Could you explain why? I mean I'm half Polish myself and I've frequently seen what I've described amongst the Polish immigrants to Britain, and among a number of British Catholics here too.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805999]I explained earlier why I liked it, primarily because of the understanding of human nature it has.[/QUOTE] he isn't asking you to explain why you like it, he's asking you to explain why it's rational
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805999] Could you explain why? I mean I'm half Polish myself and I've frequently seen what I've described amongst the Polish immigrants to Britain, and among a number of British Catholics here too.[/QUOTE] Let's start with social isolation and how a rather substantial number of priests and religious hierarchs promote one or more of isolationist views, including: racism, radical nationalism, homophobia, transphobia and religious discrimination. Meanwhile, most of the people who actually do confess tend to be old and oftentimes devout, bordering on radical (stories of old ladies confessing and then immediately sinning after they are out of church are pretty common too). Especially now, when the public is aware of the rampant corruption and decadence that's rotting Polish Church.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805999]In Transubstantiation, the actual empirical reality of the substance (i.e what you can detect by taste, sight, instrumental detection, everything essentially detectable by the senses) doesn't actually change. As in, it doesn't literally turn into physical blood and flesh in the mouth.[/QUOTE] The accidents don't change but the substance is said to change, so in order to be abiding by Catholic doctrine you have to believe there is a sense in which the Eucharist is literally (not just symbolically) transformed into the body and blood of Christ. So you still didn't answer the question. Do you believe that there is a sense in which, despite appearing in every physical way to be bread and wine, the Eucharist is the literal flesh and blood of Jesus?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805743] Combined with confession (where a Catholic would regularly talk about themselves to their priest) which is more common in Catholicism, it means that the social isolation of Catholics tends to be considerably less compared to Protestants and thus suicidal people tend to fall through the gaps less. They are more likely to interact with social networks on a frequent basis, and generally the people who are most likely to commit suicide are the isolated ones who have nobody to talk to or receive support from. The same is noticed among other religions where community support and social organisations/networks are broader and offer support to the suffering.[/QUOTE] These churches also perpetuate homophobic and backwards ideas that cause alot of harm. Many apply shaming and bullying tactics that probably cause violence and suicides.
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;49806189]The accidents don't change but the substance is said to change, so in order to be abiding by Catholic doctrine you have to believe there is a sense in which the Eucharist is literally (not just symbolically) transformed into the body and blood of Christ. So you still didn't answer the question. Do you believe that there is a sense in which, despite appearing in every physical way to be bread and wine, the Eucharist is the literal flesh and blood of Jesus?[/QUOTE] No not really.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805999]I explained earlier why I liked it, primarily because of the understanding of human nature it has.[/QUOTE] I like the fact that I'm 6'6", can bench 500lbs, have a 12 inch cock, and a 145 IQ. But none of those things are actually true. And the utility or "likability" of those beliefs have zero effect on their validity. Can you make an argument for the actual truthfulness of the Catholic understanding of human nature? Can you explain what exactly that understanding consists of? And do you only agree with that aspect of Catholocism or do you also believe in virgin births, etc.?
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49806223]I like the fact that I'm 6'6", can bench 500lbs, have a 12 inch cock, and a 145 IQ. But none of those things are actually true. And the utility or "likability" of those beliefs have zero effect on their validity. Can you make an argument for the actual truthfulness of the Catholic understanding of human nature? Can you explain what exactly that understanding consists of? And do you only agree with that aspect of Catholocism or do you also believe in virgin births, etc.?[/QUOTE] I made the argument earlier: [QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805479]Well much like some people believe in liberalism, or stoicism, or the benefits of communism, I think that catholicism has a generally better understanding of human nature than most secular philosophies. Priests have to listen to people in the confession box who explain what they did, why, and how they felt. Continue this for twenty centuries and add in the fact that clergymen are fluent in multiple languages, educated in philosophy, and the fact catholicism is flexible, means that often they have a good understanding of people and what they are like. It's a global religion with a deep history and interactions with virtually every society on the planet.[/QUOTE] The understanding is because they've spent so long actually interacting with people and documenting those interactions. Centuries of philosophical study and innovation in the church likewise. For instance, it's making steady gains in Korea (where about a third of the population is now Christian) despite the fact Korea is a secular and wealthy nation with a longstanding tradition of no organized religion. There's still a lot of Catholics in France, despite over two centuries of a strong promotion of secularism and the fact most French Catholics don't believe in God.
[QUOTE=RoboChimp;49805712]I can't say I'll ever understand that perspective. I would love to live forever.[/QUOTE] I felt a similar way for a while when I was younger, but after giving it more thought I'm pretty alright with the idea of non-existence. You don't ever feel pain or fear or boredom, you have no perception of the passage of time, you don't do anything and you aren't anywhere because the machinations of your brain that resulted in your consciousness simply don't function anymore in the same way as before your brain even existed. I think a more comforting way to think of it is that you didn't exist before you were born either, and that wasn't so bad for the ~13.8 billions years since the universe as we know it began.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49806347]The understanding is because they've spent so long actually interacting with people and documenting those interactions. Centuries of philosophical study and innovation in the church likewise.[/QUOTE] ...and they still require their followers to believe that god made their ancient ancestor from literal dirt, placed on Earth, made him a waifu, told them not to eat some fruit etc. And that if they misbehave, their all-loving Father, which art in heaven, will sentence them to infinite, eternal torments. What a nice thing it is to like and accept a religion, but only believe in some parts of it because they're nice. Other ones that are less nice, well, who believes them anyway. Except for tens of millions of people who a raised to take the doctrine as literally as possible.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49806347]I made the argument earlier: The understanding is because they've spent so long actually interacting with people and documenting those interactions. Centuries of philosophical study and innovation in the church likewise. For instance, it's making steady gains in Korea (where about a third of the population is now Christian) despite the fact Korea is a secular and wealthy nation with a longstanding tradition of no organized religion. There's still a lot of Catholics in France, despite over two centuries of a strong promotion of secularism and the fact most French Catholics don't believe in God.[/QUOTE] Scientology also helps a lot of people. That doesn't mean Xenu is real.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;49805999]I explained earlier why I liked it, primarily because of the understanding of human nature it has.[/QUOTE] You mean how it professes that everyone is a sinning garbage human being that has to hate himself for the rest of his life and is born guilty? How about the biblical claims of racism, homophobia, misogyny, support of slavery etc. doesn't seem to understand it that much as far as I can tell. and the charity work you mentioned isn't as great as you think. There are armies of catholic missionaries who go to third world countries like Africa and preach about not using contraceptives and don't try to give power to women over birth control, even if that is arguably one of the biggest problems in the continent. There are plenty of non-religious charities which help people without any of this poisonous proselytizing.
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49806223]Can you make an argument for the actual truthfulness of the Catholic understanding of human nature? Can you explain what exactly that understanding consists of? And do you only agree with that aspect of Catholocism or do you also believe in virgin births, etc.?[/QUOTE] There are no objective moral truths, and whether they go against our very nature it matters not. The "understanding of human nature" that the Catholic church has is probably about the same as anyone's, depends which Catholic you ask most likely. And of course I don't believe in birth without insemination.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49806785]There are no objective moral truths, and whether they go against our very nature it matters not. The "understanding of human nature" that the Catholic church has is probably about the same as anyone's, depends which Catholic you ask most likely. And of course I don't believe in birth without insemination.[/QUOTE] I agree with 1 and 3, but 2 is debated by most. The Rousseau vs Hobbes question is the biggest problem to solve in modern times (although I think nihilism is actually the most important problem, most people aren't even going to consider it).
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49806785]There are no objective moral truths, and whether they go against our very nature it matters not. [/QUOTE] Strange how what the Church considers moral has changed with politics and society.
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