Gun Control: Where do you draw the line? - General

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40289013]Right, so do you have a source which shows the life expectancies of both firearms owners and non-firearms owners?[/QUOTE] I don't have a source which shows the life expectancy for those groups.

[QUOTE=moffe;40289262]I don't have a source which shows the life expectancy for those groups.[/QUOTE] Then you don't really have an argument that says "gun owners live longer lives than non-gun owners".

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40289291]Then you don't really have an argument that says "gun owners live longer lives than non-gun owners".[/QUOTE] you are really just being way too vague by saying I have no argument gun owners live longer than non gun owners, my argument is that in a situation where someone has decided that they will attack you having a gun will improve your chances of surviving said attack.

[QUOTE=moffe;40289383]you are really just being way too vague by saying I have no argument gun owners live longer than non gun owners, my argument is that in a situation where someone has decided that they will attack you having a gun will improve your chances of surviving said attack.[/QUOTE] Right but this is meaningless because you don't have any stats to back up your argument with.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40289440]Right but this is meaningless because you don't have any stats to back up your argument with.[/QUOTE] so common sense is meaningless because you need statistics to back it up?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40288874]But the burden of proof is on you to show that gun owners live longer than non-gun owners.[/QUOTE] No, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he even made that claim, because I don't see it.

[QUOTE=moffe;40289633]so common sense is meaningless because you need statistics to back it up?[/QUOTE] You need evidence to back up the claim "Gun owners live longer than non-gun owners". [QUOTE=BFG9000;40289666]No, the burden of proof is on you to prove that he even made that claim, because I don't see it.[/QUOTE] * [QUOTE=Jagur;40288603]No. I dont need some statistic saying that gun owners live longer than non owners because thats silly.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=moffe;40289262]I don't have a source which shows the life expectancy for those groups.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40289874]You need evidence to back up the claim "Gun owners live longer than non-gun owners". *[/QUOTE] I never claimed they lived longer, you asked for statistics showing that even though that was never my claim.

[QUOTE=moffe;40289908]I never claimed they lived longer, you asked for statistics showing that even though that was never my claim.[/QUOTE] Well you shouldn't have replied to my post calling out the guy on refusing to provide evidence for his claim then.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40289958]Well you shouldn't have replied to my post calling out the guy on refusing to provide evidence for his claim then.[/QUOTE] he didn't claim people with guns lived longer either though, his claim was that having a gun in a self defense situation would help you rather than be a negative thing if the criminal has a gun.

His point still stands, if you own and carry a gun you have a higher chance of walking out of a confrontation with a criminal, no matter what his objective is, without considerable harm done to you. I can supply you with sources for that claim if you want, but I don't believe you need them as this is just, like moffe said, common sense. I am sure you have answered this question before, but what is the main reason that you want to establish gun control for?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40288874]But the burden of proof is on you to show that gun owners live longer than non-gun owners.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290195][/QUOTE] you're the one making a claim here really so the burden of proof is on you.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290195]But the burden of proof is on you to show that gun owners live longer than non-gun owners.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry if there's something I'm missing, but weren't you the guy who first brought it up? [QUOTE=Sobotnik;40288463]Does owning a firearm increase your life expectancy?[/QUOTE] His answer was: [quote]It depends on where you live. Some people need them to survive in extremely rural areas.[/quote] He didn't say that it increased your life expectency, he said that in some areas of the country it may, and he said that he didn't see a reason not to own one. Then he asked you a question and you seem to have ignored it, like with mine. Care to answer?

[QUOTE=moffe;40290253]you're the one making a claim here really so the burden of proof is on you.[/QUOTE] I don't have the burden of proof because I can't prove a negative. [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Fhux;40290280]He didn't say that it increased your life expectency, he said that in some areas of the country it may, and he said that he didn't see a reason not to own one. Then he asked you a question and you seem to have ignored it, like with mine. Care to answer?[/QUOTE] He refused to bring up evidence to back up his claims. [quote]No. I dont need some statistic saying that gun owners live longer than non owners because thats silly. I could get into a car acident and die today for all i know. A lot of people live long lives without guns. What I'm trying to explain to you is that gun ownership can only help you. It cannot harm you. [/quote] He needs evidence, especially for the second part. If I own a gun, am I less likely to die? Am I happier? Do I have more wealth?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290383]I don't have the burden of proof because I can't prove a negative. [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] He refused to bring up evidence to back up his claims. He needs evidence, especially for the second part. If I own a gun, am I less likely to die? Am I happier? Do I have more wealth?[/QUOTE] if you own a gun you are more likely to survive someone trying to kill you, no one said anything about happiness or wealth so now you're just going off topic because you have no argument.

[QUOTE=moffe;40290572]if you own a gun you are more likely to survive someone trying to kill you[/QUOTE] Prove it.

Sobotnik, does this appease you any? [url]http://pjmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-an-armed-public-is-a-safer-public/[/url] What they are trying to say is pure common sense. Everyone knows that you have a higher chance of catching a fish with a net/fishing pool than you do with your bare hands. It all comes down to having the right tool for the particular situation you are in.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290641]Prove it.[/QUOTE] why do I need to prove something so obvious like that, its like proving you're less likely to die of thirst if you have water. is your entire way of debating based on making vague claims and telling people to prove stuff without actually making an argument?

[QUOTE=Mr. Foster;40290650]Sobotnik, does this appease you any? [url]http://pjmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-an-armed-public-is-a-safer-public/[/url] What they are trying to say is pure common sense. Everyone knows that you have a higher chance of catching a fish with a net/fishing pool than you do with your bare hands. It all comes down to having the right tool for the particular situation you are in.[/QUOTE] Not really, correlation =/= causation. All they did was looked at two graphs and went "yup" without making an effort to look into seeing if they actually affected murder rates. [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=moffe;40290667]why do I need to prove something so obvious like that, its like proving you're less likely to die of thirst if you have water.[/QUOTE] It's not obvious. You need to prove your statement.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290698]Not really, correlation =/= causation. All they did was looked at two graphs and went "yup" without making an effort to look into seeing if they actually affected murder rates. [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] It's not obvious. You need to prove your statement.[/QUOTE] how is having a chance to defend yourself against someone armed increasing your chances of survival not obvious? its like looking at a white wall and going prove that this wall is white.

[QUOTE=moffe;40290752]how is having a chance to defend yourself against someone armed increasing your chances of survival not obvious? its like looking at a white wall and going prove that this wall is white.[/QUOTE] Because whilst it might seem obvious, it might actually imperil your own life. You need something more than "it's self evident" because that's not an argument.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290809]Because whilst it might seem obvious, it might actually imperil your own life. You need something more than "it's self evident" because that's not an argument.[/QUOTE] how would having a chance to defend myself imperil my life if the person attacking me has decided to harm me.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290698]Not really, correlation =/= causation. All they did was looked at two graphs and went "yup" without making an effort to look into seeing if they actually affected murder rates.[/QUOTE] Those two graphs were a generated illustration of the findings. There were multiple data points that the FBI and ATF themselves investigated. You use the popular, "correlation does not equal causation". Correlation and underlying reasoning always suggest causation, until proven otherwise. I challenge you, or anyone else, to prove the FBIs and ATFs findings wrong. If you have the time, read all of the postings here: [url]http://www.debate.org/debates/Concealed-Carry-Laws-Decrease-Violent-Crime/2/[/url] [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] Also, I would like to direct you to the CATO study on the exact subject you want proof of: [url]http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/WP-Tough-Targets.pdf[/url]

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40289013]Right, so do you have a source which shows the life expectancies of both firearms owners and non-firearms owners?[/QUOTE] The 2nd Amendment affirms a citizen's right to own a firearm. I don't see why its such a debate. If you don't want to own a firearm then don't. All I ask is that people don't interfere with my right to own a firearm.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40290809]it might actually imperil your own life.[/QUOTE] And how, exactly? If you're the armed one, either he has telekinesis and can disarm you from 4 meters away and turn your gun against you, or chances are he's gonna fuck right off at the sight of a gun aimed at his torso. [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] And the "arms race" argument is just silly. If you're unarmed, what's to say he's unarmed too, or he's not going to just punch you senseless?

I don't understand the argument against the self defense principle. You don't get to tell someone else if they're qualified to buy a gun for self defense reasons. If a person feels threatened enough to buy a gun, then they know the risks, too. What if someone buys a gun in light of an increase in home robberies? Maybe he's not in direct danger, but that's no reason to go "well I don't know why you'd buy a gun!!"

I don't know why Sobotnik is continuing to ask for "proof" of these claims that guns increase one's chance of getting out of a scrap, but if it must be so I shall find some stories just to resolve this silly thought of his [url]http://cnsnews.com/blog/stephen-gutowski/mother-uses-gun-protect-her-child-armed-intruders[/url] [url]http://cnsnews.com/blog/stephen-gutowski/86-year-old-woman-uses-gun-defend-herself-intruder[/url] [quote]The Cato institute has an interactive map of self-defense stories they've complied. While the map is an impressive representation, Cato admits that even the plethora of cases they're put onto their map isn't a "comprehensive" representation of gun defense in the U.S. because "Criminals will often flee the scene when they discover that their intended target has a gun. With no shots fired, no injuries, and no suspect in custody, news organizations may report nothing at all."[/quote] [url]http://cnsnews.com/blog/stephen-gutowski/what-about-self-defense-stories-involving-guns-mr-president[/url] [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] Yes they're all from the same source but I just couldn't be arsed to go look for the countless other stories documented online because you are fully capable of doing it yourself, Sobotnik, and you know that.

[QUOTE=BFG9000;40291695]I don't know why Sobotnik is continuing to ask for "proof" of these claims that guns increase one's chance of getting out of a scrap, but if it must be so I shall find some stories just to resolve this silly thought of his [url]http://cnsnews.com/blog/stephen-gutowski/mother-uses-gun-protect-her-child-armed-intruders[/url] [url]http://cnsnews.com/blog/stephen-gutowski/86-year-old-woman-uses-gun-defend-herself-intruder[/url] [url]http://cnsnews.com/blog/stephen-gutowski/what-about-self-defense-stories-involving-guns-mr-president[/url] [editline]15th April 2013[/editline] Yes they're all from the same source but I just couldn't be arsed to go look for the countless other stories documented online because you are fully capable of doing it yourself, Sobotnik, and you know that.[/QUOTE] I provided the 2012 CATO study in my last post. I doubt he actually takes the time to read it though, due to it's size.

[QUOTE=Mr. Foster;40292023]I provided the 2012 CATO study in my last post. I doubt he actually takes the time to read it though, due to it's size.[/QUOTE] Please do not cite a libertarian think-tank as a source in these debates. An academic study is fine, but avoid such institutions that are built around advocating a political ideology.