The First Presidential Debate - Bart Simpson vs Lisa Simpson - THUNDERDOME - General

[QUOTE=joshuadim;51115975]Are you admitting tax evasion? You know that's a felony right?[/QUOTE] He said he avoids paying taxes that he's [I]not legally obligated to.[/I] That is not tax evasion. Tax evasion is avoiding paying taxes that you [B]are[/B] legally obligated to pay. I just want to clear something up here: I avoid paying taxes that I'm not legally obligated to, as well. As do you, and as does [I]basically everybody.[/I] Ever claimed a tax deduction for school costs and supplies? Mortgage interest? Work supplies? Charitable donations? Congrats, now you're a "tax evader" too. There is nothing immoral or illegal about reducing your tax obligations using any of the intentional loopholes that the government very specifically allows you to use for just that purpose. Now, I've said the word "loophole," and your gut reaction may be to jump to accusations of connivery and greed, but the fact is that most loopholes are deliberate and beneficial. A brief lesson on history: The origin of the word "loophole" comes from slit windows in castle walls called "loops." Loops allowed defenders to fire arrows from safety. A loop could also refer to narrow, hidden passages through castle defenses that allowed women and children to escape sieges. Loopholes were intentionally built into the design of the castle to protect the people who relied on it-- the loops helped defend the residents from attack, or enabled them to flee when necessary. In modern usage, a "loophole" is generally seen to be a negative word applying to those who exploit vulnerabilities in a system for personal gain, but the original understanding of the word is [I]not[/I] dead, and their purpose has not changed. Like the loops of ancient castles, [I]most[/I] modern loopholes are intentionally built into our tax laws. This is for the benefit of our economy. For example: when you sell a piece of real estate, you have to pay a capital gains tax. However, a tax loophole exists for [I]investment[/I] real estate transactions that can allow you to defer paying that capital gains tax indefinitely. It does [I]eventually[/I] need to be paid, but [I]you[/I] effectively choose when. You can defer it all the way to your dying die. This is not an oversight; it was very intentionally built into our tax system for real estate investors to make use of, because real estate investments are good for the country and for the economy, and this loophole gives real estate investors greater power to invest. The government [I]wants[/I] you to use it, and has published specific criteria for [I]how[/I] to use it, and [I]what[/I] it can be used for. This is a legal loophole -- the good kind. I don't like Trump at all. He is a despicable person, and I am viscerally opposed to most of the shit that comes out of his mouth, but on this one point I have to agree: knowing your tax laws, and making use of the [I]intentional legal loopholes[/i] built into those laws to reduce your tax obligations and extend your financial reach [B]is[/B] smart. Not doing so is wasteful. All I'm condoning is [I]understanding your taxes, and the loopholes by which the government allows you to reduce them.[/I] Please note, however, that this does [B]not[/B] refer to any practices that attempt to deceive the government, hide your true obligations, or otherwise avoid paying the taxes that you [I]are[/I] legally obligated to pay. [B]THAT[/B] is "tax evasion," and (as you pointed out) it is quite naughty. Doing this is (and should be) felonious.

[QUOTE=Magikoopa24;51116201]So as someone who doesn't know these two well, how does the debate look? Pence may have some really shitty history, but his debate skill definitely won't be as bad as Trump's was last night. Hopefully things will still end up looking bad for Trump and his team.[/QUOTE] Kaine had an average approval rating as senator and as governor and seems to have had decent tenures in both offices. He accepted gifts as governor but they were legal under Virginia law and there was no evidence of quid pro quo. It's still a weakness that aligns well with the pay to play accusations against Clinton but it's really his only noticeable weakness. Pence has a relatively low approval rating and has made a number of controversial decisions as governor. He is definitely a Republican hardliner which is why Trump picked him in the first place. Between the two I think Kaine has better experience while Pence seems like a better orator. Several journalists have noted that he is sort of a guiding voice for Trumps grandstanding. I think he would more readily be able to sell the country on Trump than Kaine on Clinton. [editline]27th September 2016[/editline] Trumps assertion that not paying taxes is smart might signal totally legal exploitation of loopholes but the fact that he refuses to make the information public, info that is being audited by the IRS, isn't helping his case. There is also the optics aspect. Trump is a super rich real estate mogul but clearly thinks that means he should pay less taxes than the working man. More implicitly, that it would be dumb for someone as rich as him to pay taxes. I'm reminded of Romney's ten thousand dollar bet in one of the 2012 Republican debates. It makes him look out of touch.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51116264]Trumps assertion that not paying taxes is smart might signal totally legal exploitation of loopholes but the fact that he refuses to make the information public, info that is being audited by the IRS, isn't helping his case. There is also the optics aspect. Trump is a super rich real estate mogul but clearly thinks that means he should pay less taxes than the working man. More implicitly, that it would be dumb for someone as rich as him to pay taxes. I'm reminded of Romney's ten thousand dollar bet in one of the 2012 Republican debates. It makes him look out of touch.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah, I don't disagree with you there.

[QUOTE=Loadingue;51116118]I had a dream last night that Trump had finished the debate and came right to my house to chill and shit. First he appears nice and relaxed as he's watching the TV and waiting for the election results, then it happens: 50% for both Clinton and Trump. Then Lester Holt says that Trump has 0.05% more votes and won the presidency. Worried, I run after Trump who walks away to lock himself in his room. Right as he closes the door, I plead him "Don't start another war, Trump! Don't do it!" He looks at me in the eyes, seemingly upset, and slams the door to my face without saying a word. How the fuck did I make that shit up, I'm not even a fan of Trump[/QUOTE] For some reason, I'm reminded of this. [media]https://youtube.com/watch?v=buiv3_uVHSA[/media]

[QUOTE=ThurnisHaley;51115711]What? That looks like a normal handshake, are you just ripping on him for his every movement now?[/QUOTE] Body-language in politics is incredibly important, and it's exercised with precision. The handshake between two politicians are an immediate display of dominance, and it's pretty clear Trump knows every trick in the book there. The hand closest to the viewer is generally seen as dominant, and a pat on the back might seem friendly, but it's just the underliner of the handshake. Politicians and people of power are taught these things to appear more in charge. A well-done handshake will go unnoticed. What bothers me is how indescrete Trump was about it. It didn't feel natural, just orchestrated and fake. This documentary delves into the topic of body-language in politics really well (and just body-language in general). Educate yourself. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY1K_IefjSA[/media]

[QUOTE=CroGamer002;51115709]TIL Afghanistan isn't in Middle East.[/QUOTE] US doctrine has referred to Afghanistan as being in the "Greater Middle East" since the Bush administration.

Watching Trump flounder last night brought me so much joy.

[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;51116444]I hope he bombs the next two debates just as hard. Last night blew my expectations out of the water, I woke up this morning with a smile on my face. How the fuck are so many people saying Trump won, though? 95% of the time he would avoid questions, boast about his business, straight up admit to terrible things and just resort to insulting Clinton, which she took in stride literally every. Single. Time. I can't even think of one time off the top of my head when she faltered. I'm sure there was a moment or two, but I'd have to go back and watch it again. Trump's fuck ups were almost nonstop.[/QUOTE] Never underestimate a Trumpet's capacity for self-delusion in matters concerning their candidate.

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;51116313]Body-language in politics is incredibly important, and it's exercised with precision. The handshake between two politicians are an immediate display of dominance, and it's pretty clear Trump knows every trick in the book there. The hand closest to the viewer is generally seen as dominant, and a pat on the back might seem friendly, but it's just the underliner of the handshake. Politicians and people of power are taught these things to appear more in charge. A well-done handshake will go unnoticed. What bothers me is how indescrete Trump was about it. It didn't feel natural, just orchestrated and fake. This documentary delves into the topic of body-language in politics really well (and just body-language in general). Educate yourself. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY1K_IefjSA[/media][/QUOTE] To add to that sly handshake, CNN shot them shaking hands from the back, which would put Hillary's right hand on top, except Trump did that whole arm on the back thing and covered it up. It's also why he has a visible palm when he goes to rub something out of his eye. Some people view his hand gestures as odd but I think they still work for him. Unfortunately he was constantly drinking water and sniffling, while Hillary did none of these things, making her look especially strong amongst claims of weak health. It might sound dumb but how you look as almost as important as what you say.

The thing people generally remember the best is the last thing said, and its a pretty well known tactic. I'm somewhat worried he's saving all of the actually hard hitting points for the final debate, considering he didn't say so many things he could have talked about (Benghazi, Clinton Foundation, etc.). While I wouldn't be surprised if he Hillary had prepped some sort of responses to those, it didn't seem like usual Trump to avoid talking about those issues. The next debate is supposed to be more townhall like, which I think Trump generally does ok in, but hopefully Clinton doesn't get cocky going into the last 1 v 1 debate, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump comes out significantly more organized in that debate. I'm curious as to what's going on in the Trump headquarters right now. Did his managers and organizers tell him to prepare and he just didn't? did they let him do whatever? Hopefully we'll hear, or better yet see, the consequences of what happened last night.

[QUOTE=Rubs10;51116464]To add to that sly handshake, CNN shot them shaking hands from the back, which would put Hillary's right hand on top, except Trump did that whole arm on the back thing and covered it up. It's also why he has a visible palm when he goes to rub something out of his eye. Some people view his hand gestures as odd but I think they still work for him. Unfortunately he was constantly drinking water and sniffling, while Hillary did none of these things, making her look especially strong amongst claims of weak health. It might sound dumb but how you look as almost as important as what you say.[/QUOTE] Take Nixon V JFK for example

[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;51116444]I hope he bombs the next two debates just as hard. Last night blew my expectations out of the water, I woke up this morning with a smile on my face. How the fuck are so many people saying Trump won, though? 95% of the time he would avoid questions, boast about his business, straight up admit to terrible things and just resort to insulting Clinton, which she took in stride literally every. Single. Time.[/QUOTE] I felt the same joy about him fucking up so bad, but you're forgetting the Trump supporters' amazing powers to completely ignore things that should have lost him every last bit of support. I mean, people were thinking it was the last straw for him when he talked about the wall. I've seriously lost count of how many times that Onion article image has been posted about some new thing Trump said. Trump fucked up hard and definitely showed how awful he is, but I won't be surprised if it turns out this debate changed nothing and Trump supporters widely believe he won the debate. [QUOTE]Trump's fuck ups were almost nonstop.[/QUOTE] I still can't get over the quote: [I]"The single greatest problem the world has is nuclear armament nuclear weapons. Not global warming, like you think, in your, your, president things. Nuclear is the single greatest threat."[/I]... His use of the words cyber and nuclear... 'Very against police judge'... He isn't even able to speak English!

[QUOTE=Megadave;51116609]Take Nixon V JFK for example[/QUOTE] This. Nixon was sick, pale, didn't shave, and hit his head on the way in. Kennedy was tan and had just got laid.

[media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/780796008854876160[/media] Trump seems to genuinely believe he won the debate - meaning he's unlikely to change his strategy for the second one?

[QUOTE=smurfy;51116911][media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/780796008854876160[/media] Trump seems to genuinely believe he won the debate - meaning he's unlikely to change his strategy for the second one?[/QUOTE] Well, good. Let him think that. He'll flounder again, and we can all breath a sigh of relief.

I'm not a Trumpet by any means but I couldn't help but laugh when Clinton said "he's said vile things about women, like they don't deserve equal pay unless they do the same work as men" like :what:

How amazing would it be if Trump's failure is caused by the echo chamber he and his supporters created?

Lets be serious. Trump could walk on stage, have a cardiac arrest, and people will still say he won

[QUOTE=da space core;51116968]Lets be serious. Trump could walk on stage, have a cardiac arrest, and people will still say he won[/QUOTE] Well, who else would be brave enough to do that?

[QUOTE=da space core;51116968]Lets be serious. Trump could walk on stage, have a cardiac arrest, and people will still say he won[/QUOTE] People aren't saying he won though, it's one of the worst CNN instant poll results of all time

[QUOTE=smurfy;51116911][media]https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/780796008854876160[/media] Trump seems to genuinely believe he won the debate - meaning he's unlikely to change his strategy for the second one?[/QUOTE] Wonder how much of that is through vote brigading. No way Time readers thought that Trump won.

I wish orgonot was here.

[QUOTE=BlindSniper17;51117005]Wonder how much of that is through vote brigading. No way Time readers thought that Trump won.[/QUOTE] It's the same disconnect as when Bernie Sanders won every single online debate poll and lost every other debate poll. There are armies of people on 4chan/reddit that pad these polls to hell.

What do you guys think about the argument that the moderator was biased against him? [IMG]https://i.redd.it/i0u3pporc1ox.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51117053]What do you guys think about the argument that the moderator was biased against him? [/QUOTE] I think it's really funny the lengths that trumples are willing to go to to explain why their godking meme lord deflated like a balloon animal on live television.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;51116957]I'm not a Trumpet by any means but I couldn't help but laugh when Clinton said "he's said vile things about women, like they don't deserve equal pay unless they do the same work as men" like :what:[/QUOTE] Full quote [QUOTE]CLINTON: Well, one thing. One thing, Lester. HOLT: Very quickly, because we're at the final question now. CLINTON: You know, he tried to switch from looks to stamina. But this is a man who has called women pigs, slobs and dogs, and someone who has said pregnancy is an inconvenience to employers, who has said... TRUMP: I never said that. CLINTON: .... women don't deserve equal pay unless they do as good a job as men. TRUMP: I didn't say that.[/QUOTE] She wasn't implying that women should be paid equally for working less, but rather she claimed that Trump was implying "women don't work as hard and that's the only reason wage inequality exists"

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51117053]What do you guys think about the argument that the moderator was biased against him? [/QUOTE] I think you should take your inane conspiracy theories back to /pol/ where they belong. Every time Trump fails at something people like you always blame someone else. Trump failed and failed hard during this debate on his own but no, god forbid you should accept that.

Most watched debate of all time folks let me tell you [media]https://twitter.com/ByronTau/status/780830236770439169[/media]

[QUOTE=Svinnik;51117053]What do you guys think about the argument that the moderator was biased against him?[/QUOTE] Hillary leaves room for plausible deniability in her answers, she's a politician after all. Trump straight up lies, he claims he didn't say things that are his verbatim quotes, he says things that are flat out wrong, and he constantly interrupts and speaks over Hillary, that's the reason he gets asked more direct questions. He leaves too many gaps in his answers for any decent moderator to be satisfied with them.

The moderator definitely pushed trump for answers more... Probably because Trump was the one floundering about, going on irrelevant rants, and not answering questions properly. It's not a conspiracy, It's just that trump is just unable to function properly in any setting where he can't rely on shouting over people and repeating his strangely formatted rhetoric. [sp] Sad!. [/sp]