Forum Discussion v5 - Imagine if you used Ignore List. - General

[QUOTE=The Genie;52903248]An undesirable outcome doesn't mean the issues weren't addressed. If it was as simple as "a number of people want this therefore this should be done" then we could just do away with moderators all together and implement some form of direct democracy.[/QUOTE] The issues have not been addressed. What are you even talking about?

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;52903245]It's a lot like coming up to the same fork repeatedly, because the side the mods keep taking leads down a huge circle that brings us back to the same spot. We keep saying to take the other fork, and because our advice isn't changing, we get told that our points are recycled, and then we get ignored again. Eventually this current batch will get tired of arguing, but so long as we remain in the same dilemma, other people will inevitably bring up the same points.[/QUOTE] Except your original argument is just one underhanded jab at Tudd and posters like him. I went back and re-read both Raidyr's post and your post, and neither of them brought up anything other than more references back to right-wing posters with controversial opinions angering the general subforum. You can say this has "lost the plot" (even though it's literally the core argument), but this thing has been brought up and talked about to the point that a ban had to literally be enforced because it kept going in circles so much. Your points are recycled. They are very much recycled, which is why you even say in your post "other people will inevitably bring up the same points." It's not a matter of rule-breaking users that mods won't ban, it's that they won't ban people with polarized opinions that differ from the majority of posters in certain sections. The thread was a bait thread, plain and simple. It shouldn't have existed in the first place, but that doesn't somehow justify the argument that extremists are running rampant on Facepunch. What's actually happening is people with hard-left/hard-right views have learned how to post their own opinions without being banned, and now it's pissing people off.

[QUOTE=The Genie;52903264]Okay, just so we're on the same page, what are your issues at hand?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=joshuadim;52901119]1) I can understand the idea of making Facepunch a balanced place. That in itself is commendable, and I support having a more balanced forum. However, that should not mean that intellectually dishonest posting should be allowed that ignores reality and facts. The same should go with obvious bait threads that try to get a rile out of people. There are several noteable users on this forum that do this to get reactions of out people and then abandon their own threads after several weak """arguments""" and move off to the next bait thread that they make. There should be a guideline against whataboutism and general deflections in my opinion because debates should be honest and insightful, not full of bullshit. 2) To be fair, the term isn't THAT far off. There has been a very obvious protective wall against a specific user that has allowed him to continue to make bait threads constantly to push an agenda, with pretty much only a few mods being able to ban them at this point. It's not mod-sanctioned trolling per-se, it's more that it is mod-sanctioned baitposting. 3) And I agree. Safe-spaces are awful in general for proper debate and Facepunch should NEVER be allowed to become one. But you are twisting Sega's words with this. Sega does not want a safe space, he wants the awful users gone. Edit: Hezzy that last statement to Sega is an especially insulting strawman of Sega's very legitimate points. This kind of attitude WILL kill off Facepunch's community in time in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;52903270]What's actually happening is people with hard-left/hard-right views have learned how to post their own opinions without being banned, and now it's pissing people off.[/QUOTE] You act as trolls and baitposters are fundamentally different than they were 5 years ago, but they're not. Even Hezzy admits there's been a change of moderation on the issue.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903272]stuff[/QUOTE] This is still just one issue, and is an issue that's been addressed ad nauseum to the point where it was effectively banned as a topic in forum discussion

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52903145]Did you honestly expect better from Hezzy? This is pretty much totally normal for him which is exactly why he should never have been remodded to begin with.[/QUOTE] good grief what a silly and hostile post. yea let's just ignore all the massive changes and contributions he's made in the short time since he got re-admined or all the times he's gone as far as sharing chatlogs to satisfy concerns all because grrr he dismissed a few posts about shit that was already discussed to death. chill out already.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52903281]This is still just one issue, and is an issue that's been addressed ad nauseum to the point where it was effectively banned as a topic in forum discussion[/QUOTE] It wasn't addressed, it was swept under the rug to fester and spread.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;52903277]You act as trolls and baitposters are fundamentally different than they were 5 years ago, but they're not. Even Hezzy admits there's been a change of moderation on the issue.[/QUOTE] You're misinterpreting me. I specifically said they [B]have not[/B] changed, they have only learned to post without being banned. You're also insinuating that these posters are trolls and baitposters, depending on who we're talking about I would argue the opposite. There's a reason these posters haven't been banned by a single mod and it's because they aren't breaking any rules. And yet they're still able to post all of these controversial things. That right there is what you have a problem with, not that these posters are actually posting controversial things, but that they're able to get away with it.

[QUOTE=Killuah;52903218]While I agree with your point I think your tone is not very nice.[/QUOTE] I think my tone here is fairly irrelevant when Hezzy's tone is just as bad and hypocritical on top of that, coming from the guy who chewed out the other mods so being so flippantly dismissive in the past himself. [QUOTE=postal;52903282]good grief what a silly and hostile post. yea let's just ignore all the massive changes and contributions he's made in the short time since he got re-admined or all the times he's gone as far as sharing chatlogs to satisfy concerns all because grrr he dismissed a few posts about shit that was already discussed to death. chill out already.[/QUOTE] It's been discussed to death because you guys refuse to actually address the problem. You're far more interested in sweeping it under the rug and forcing people to not even discuss the issue. Really doesn't help when you guys on the mod team have consistently dismissed the issue as "I don't like X person because they disagree with me" despite the repeated examples to the contrary, users such as Grenadiac who nobody seems to have a problem with. (And who I personally think is a good poster and like the viewpoints he brings to discussions even when I disagree with them.)

[QUOTE=WitheredGryphon;52903287]You're misinterpreting me. I specifically said they [B]have not[/B] changed, they have only learned to post without being banned. You're also insinuating that these posters are trolls and baitposters, depending on who we're talking about I would argue the opposite. There's a reason these posters haven't been banned by a single mod and it's because they aren't breaking any rules. And yet they're still able to post all of these controversial things. That right there is what you have a problem with, not that these posters are actually posting controversial things, but that they're able to get away with it.[/QUOTE] Yes, that's exactly the point. The people who make and interpret the rules on this website decided on a new interpretation that I and a number of community members believe has caused a recurrent problem. The mods deny the issue every time it's raised without offering concrete reason why- only that "it's the rules, shut up." The only hard counterargument we saw from Hezzy accused me of trying to create a safe space, but now me and two other users told him he misunderstood. His response to that was basically "how dare you disrespect me." That doesn't resolve the underlying issue and it never will. Anyway, I'm going to move on. I don't particularly care what the other blues and golds think of my issue but if the mods are all in consensus that no answer is an answer, then continuing to argue the point is going to go nowhere.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903284]It wasn't addressed, it was swept under the rug to fester and spread.[/QUOTE] This is an internet forum... take a step back. Back in the day, Hezzy put a lot of his own time into this place even though, as I remember, he had a very busy life. Now that he's back, he's still willing to put in a lot of effort to make this place better; and god knows, the older you get the busier you get (on top of this). With the exception of a few mods over the years, the majority (especially the ones now, old and new) put forth way more effort than they need to, and there are still users wanting to treat them like they're all horrific dictators in a third world country. If you don't like it, find a different forum you'd be happier to be on. I think it's okay for Hezzy to get a little heated in a post or two. Some of you are being way too childish.

[QUOTE=Alice3173;52903293]I think my tone here is fairly irrelevant when Hezzy's tone is just as bad and hypocritical on top of that, coming from the guy who chewed out the other mods so being so flippantly dismissive in the past himself. It's been discussed to death because you guys refuse to actually address the problem. You're far more interested in sweeping it under the rug and forcing people to not even discuss the issue. Really doesn't help when you guys on the mod team have consistently dismissed the issue as "I don't like X person because they disagree with me" despite the repeated examples to the contrary, users such as Grenadiac who nobody seems to have a problem with. (And who I personally think is a good poster and like the viewpoints he brings to discussions even when I disagree with them.)[/QUOTE] So because Hezzy made a single post that people disagreed with, that justifies removing his position as an admin? I don't know if I'm in the minority here, but I am genuinely happy with the changes Hezzy has been making and help introduce. He's been pushing the Community Fund, he rewrote the entire guidelines for mods and how they should act after the community complained, he's been advocating for increased transparency between the mods and community, hell he was one of the only ones who took a stance with the community against Reagy's whole avatar business. Frankly up until this point I have never seen a single mod try to do more for the community than Hezzy. And that's not even including the stuff he's done prior to being a mod. I think it's just a bit asinine you would call for him being de-admin'd for a single dumb post. [QUOTE=Sega Saturn;52903294]Yes, that's exactly the point. The people who make and interpret the rules on this website decided on a new interpretation that I and a number of of community members believe has caused a recurrent problem. The mods deny the issue every time it's raised without offering concrete reason why- only that "it's the rules, shut up." That doesn't resolve the underlying issue and it never will. Anyway, I'm done posting in this thread, it's clearly not going to accomplish a thing.[/QUOTE] If this is the point, then you've failed to see the problem in your own argument. Hezzy has said the site used to be left-centric (which I agree with), but this hasn't changed because of moderation policy. It's changed because posters with hardened right-wing views have learned to post without being banned, and as a result the forum balance has now shifted. That said, neither Raidyr, nor you, nor Alice, have brought up a single post demonstrating your argument whatsoever (excluding the bait trans thread which was an anomaly to begin with). I'm sure your point would be more readily listened to if it had examples to go along with it.

[QUOTE=Robman8908;52903310]This is an internet forum... take a step back. Back in the day, Hezzy put a lot of his own time into this place even though, as I remember, he had a very busy life. Now that he's back, he's still willing to put in a lot of effort to make this place better; and god knows, the older you get the busier you get (on top of this). With the exception of a few mods over the years, the majority (especially the ones now, old and new) put forth way more effort than they need to, and there are still users wanting to treat them like they're all horrific dictators in a third world country. I think it's okay for Hezzy to get a little heated in a post or two. Some of you are being way too childish.[/QUOTE] Congratulations on completely missing the point of my posts. I NEVER said that the mod teams are lazy or incompetent. On the contrary, compared to 5 years ago the mod team is absolutely better than it has ever been. They are the reason why Facepunch is leagues better than any other forum. But I think this [QUOTE=Hezzy;52903121]I'm not going to argue with you. You are wrong on pretty much every point you just raised. However I will say that it is probably not a good idea to assume a disrespectful tone and tell me that I have "lost the plot".[/QUOTE] Was completely disrespectful and condescending as a "response" to Raidyr

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903322]Congratulations on completely missing the point of my posts. I NEVER said that the mod teams are lazy or incompetent. On the contrary, compared to 5 years ago the mod team is absolutely better than it has ever been. They are the reason why Facepunch is leagues better than any other forum. But I think this Was completely disrespectful and condescending as a "response" to Raidyr[/QUOTE] Lol. I didn't miss what I was aiming for. I was addressing your overdramatic tone. As for him being disrespectful, oh well, it was one post. As I said in my other post, he's done a ton for this place, I think he can carry that tone once in awhile. It's not a big deal whatsoever. Move on.

[QUOTE=Robman8908;52903347]Lol. I didn't miss what I was aiming for. I was addressing your overdramatic tone. As for him being disrespectful, oh well, it was one post. As I said in my other post, he's done a ton for this place, I think he can carry that tone once in awhile. It's not a big deal whatsoever. Move on.[/QUOTE] Why should Hezzy get a free pass? Are the mod guidelines that HE wrote not applicable to him? Well then in that case let's throw out the mod guidelines in general. Edit: oh yeah, you still did miss the point of my posts by using this "overdramatizing" argument which you seem to have pulled out of thin air.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903322]Congratulations on completely missing the point of my posts. I NEVER said that the mod teams are lazy or incompetent. On the contrary, compared to 5 years ago the mod team is absolutely better than it has ever been. They are the reason why Facepunch is leagues better than any other forum. But I think this Was completely disrespectful and condescending as a "response" to Raidyr[/QUOTE] I agree with that at least, especially considering that I (and 27 others) felt that Raidyr's post was pretty on the nose. Actively making an effort to keep the forum 'balanced' is an awkward goal when your perspective on the leanings of the forum are skewed. It's also a misplaced effort in the first place, given that wanting things to be 'balanced' implies that we operate on an entirely binary ideological spectrum with equal dialectic weight on both sides.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903284]It wasn't addressed, it was swept under the rug to fester and spread.[/QUOTE] I believe it was addressed, you just didn't get the answer you wanted. Alternative would be lying, so do you want transparent disagreement or lying through his teeth to appease groups?

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903357]Why should Hezzy get a free pass? Are the mod guidelines that HE wrote not applicable to him? Well then in that case let's throw out the mod guidelines in general.[/QUOTE] Look at how many times you and some others have been rude since this dumb "issue" arose. Multiple free passes. If you keep going, you'll probably end up banned because this kind of argument always turns into flaming and "I'm right you're wrong I'm not going to listen to what you have to say." Just stop and move on. It's actually pretty easy, and will save you from just getting even angrier over a complete non-issue.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52903367]I agree with that at least, especially considering that I (and others) felt that Raidyr's post was pretty on the nose. Actively making an effort to keep the forum 'balanced' is an awkward goal when your perspective on the leanings of the forum are skewed. It's also a misplaced effort in the first place, given that wanting things to be 'balanced' implies that we operate on an entirely binary ideological spectrum with equal dialectic weight on both sides.[/QUOTE] I agree, balance is a tricky issue in this case. What would be "balanced" to a left-leaning person/right-leaning person? How would this balance be maintained? Etc. [editline]18th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Robman8908;52903372]Look at how many times you and some others have been rude since this dumb "issue" arose. Multiple free passes. If you keep going, you'll probably end up banned because this kind of argument always turns into flaming and "I'm right you're wrong I'm not going to listen to what you have to say." Just stop and move on. It's actually pretty easy, and will save you from just getting even angrier over a complete non-issue.[/QUOTE] Please point where I have been rude? I've been civil this entire time

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903375]I agree, balance is a tricky issue in this case. What would be "balanced" to a left-leaning person/right-leaning person? How would this balance be maintained? Etc.[/QUOTE] I think that facepunch is already a perfectly good platform for reasonable and 'balanced' discussion. The common sense and flexible rules, transparency and approachability of the mod team, and the ideologically diverse userbase have already created that landscape and maintains it pretty well, and I only see that getting better as the discourse on recurring issues develops more. I don't think there needs to be any special or intentional efforts made to protect or target any groups or users in particular. Let the forum and its rules do their job indiscriminately and fairly.

[QUOTE=sam6420;52903361]I'm really not even sure what everybody is mad about other than the fact that Hezzy's response wasn't perfect. These posts are ambiguous and convoluted and I just feel like it's a waste of time. If you have a problem, be direct and stop beating around the bush. If it's dismissed or answered in a way that you don't appreciate, tough shit, that's life. Stop trying to make everything perfect. It's fine.[/QUOTE] People have been banned for adressing them directly because basically "stop getting butmad over xxx"

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903357]Why should Hezzy get a free pass? Are the mod guidelines that HE wrote not applicable to him? Well then in that case let's throw out the mod guidelines in general. Edit: oh yeah, you still did miss the point of my posts by using this "overdramatizing" argument which you seem to have pulled out of thin air.[/QUOTE] Dude I get you have a problem you want addressed, but can we quit pretending like Hezzy is the only one that has ever made a dumb post before or one that didn't entirely agree with the mod guidelines? If it were always this strict I'm pretty sure the entire mod team would be gone now. Right now there have still been no specific examples tying back to the root argument that I've seen. Obviously there was some ambiguity in Hezzy's original post, but there has been nothing but vague arguments since then. Hezzy is obviously not outside of his own rules, but you're naive if you think that he can be 100% on point at all times in every post he makes.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52903375]Please point where I have been rude? I've been civil this entire time[/QUOTE] Ok... [QUOTE=joshuadim;52903257]The issues have not been addressed. What are you even talking about?[/QUOTE] They were. As Van-man said, you just didn't like the response. Looks like willful ignorance in this post. [QUOTE=joshuadim;52903229]This topic would be long dead if the mod team actually addressed the issues rather than sweeping them under the rug.[/QUOTE] Passive-aggressive tone. [QUOTE=joshuadim;52903284]It wasn't addressed, it was swept under the rug to fester and spread.[/QUOTE] Increased passive-aggressiveness. [QUOTE=joshuadim;52903322]Congratulations on completely missing the point of my posts.[/QUOTE] Not understanding what I was aiming for and being quite sarcastic for no reason. [QUOTE=joshuadim;52903322]I NEVER said that the mod teams are lazy or incompetent.[/QUOTE] Twisting my words, I never said you said that. (I'm only pulling the ones I've noticed from this page alone, and I'm not arguing with you anymore on this since I'm seeing it's impossible to get you to quiet down.)

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52903383]I think that facepunch is already a perfectly good platform for reasonable and 'balanced' discussion. The common sense and flexible rules, transparency and approachability of the mod team, and the ideologically diverse userbase have already created that landscape and maintains it pretty well, and I only see that getting better as the discourse on recurring issues develops more. I don't think there needs to be any special or intentional efforts made to protect or target any groups or users in particular. Let the forum and its rules do their job indiscriminately and fairly.[/QUOTE] And I completely agree with all that. I'd rather Facepunch stay this way rather than become either a leftist or right-wing hugbox. I just want general rules against stuff like whataboutism/deflections in debates as well as rules against baitposting.

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;52903385]fp along with most popular and fairly known internet forums are left oriented. the right wing users you see are usually the 10 or so same posters. the gun rights advocates (zilla, download, a couple others) are usually very visible because they are the only ones that take time to try holding legitimate arguments around gun rights. i agree that usually it is kinda tasteless, and it's most often in a thread on an active shooter scenario happening, and as a gun owner/gun rights favorer myself i think it's not necessarily something that should be occuring. we have (had) an own thread on gun rights but it's in mass debate and last time i read the thread it was going to shit. as for tudd and others actual right wingers (the gun peeps i mentioned are otherwise leftist in my eyes, i spend time in the gun thread and close to all the pro gun people are center when it comes to economics and healthcare (cyke might be closer to right)) they are usually quite vocal, and obviously people will react no matter if they are exact center or center left or left. people have been crying for Tudd to get banned and frankly i think he's a bit of a tit but why should he not be allowed to post? i'm very leftist when it comes to healthcare, privatization, economics, middle when it comes to environmental taxing, and far right when it comes to gun rights. i despise any form of surveillance and registering of people just for the greater good, i love unions, i think it's horrendous how the average american never goes on vacation because he can't afford to or won't be allowed to.. where do you put me? am i left, center, right, hybrid? most fp users are clearly either center left or left. look in any thread about healthcare, privatization, gun rights.. most agree and the handful that are more to the right are usually vocal about it, and get spam rated for it. people post shit like "lol just wait for XX to show up" all the time.[/QUOTE] Your problem is that you (and others) are trying to categorize users into binary categories (right vs. left), when in reality, they're individuals with nuanced and diverse thoughts, beliefs, and opinions. When you look at the forums general consensus and the at-large opinions on the issues themselves, you can pretty clearly observe that the forum is hardly as 'left' as you say. The users with more extreme, leftist viewpoints are pretty easily identifiable and isolated from the larger crowd, and that's because their beliefs often aren't the norm.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;52903409]Your problem is that you (and others) are trying to categorize users into binary categories (right vs. left), when in reality, they're individuals with nuanced and diverse thoughts, beliefs, and opinions. When you look at the forums general consensus and at-large opinions on the issues themselves, you can pretty clearly observe that the forum is hardly as 'left' as you say. The users with more extreme, leftist viewpoints are pretty easily identifiable and isolated from the larger crowd, and that's because their beliefs often aren't the norm.[/QUOTE] Categorizing has nothing to do with the original problem that is still being complained about though. It was Hezzy's ambiguity in what he wanted to do with "balancing" the forum and he happened to call it a left-centrist forum (which is true when you compare it to other forums, this one is a very much left-centrist forum. See: /r/t_d, etc. for what other forums based with different political spectrums look like) I think what Hezzy was trying to get at was to be more lax in the previously heavily moderated right-wing biased threads/articles. Not trying to shift an entire political spectrum of a forum of people.

[QUOTE=sam6420;52903407]Were they banned for addressing them or were they banned for addressing repeatedly after being told not to? Those are different things.[/QUOTE] Are they?

[QUOTE=Killuah;52903436]Are they?[/QUOTE] ...yes? one is giving people a heads up with a warning first, the other is jumping straight to indiscriminate banning.

[QUOTE=PrusseLusken;52903422]no, my opinion is that generally fp users are left oriented. as a whole the forum is oriented towards taxation paying healthcare, legalization of drugs, stricter gun laws, internet neutrality, anti-surveillance, against privatization. i'm not sure how you're not seeing it. the more vocal users are more polarized but as a mass it blends to a leftist center position.[/QUOTE] Most of the issues you list are only 'leftist' opinions through a severely warped and Americentric overton window. How many people do you see openly advocating for the dictatorship of the proletariat, collectivization, the advent of a stateless and classless society, or serious social progressivism (the type that entities like GAF and tumblr are more sympathetic to)? How many socialists, anarchists, or "social justice warriors" can you identify on here? A lot of them have been banned and were treated as just as much of ideological outcasts as those further right. The reality is that fp is oriented to very much of a center-left viewpoint on a majority of issues (healthcare, workers rights, environmentalism, social justice, etc.) but usually dont go any farther than the average twenty-something self proclaimed "liberal". If they do they'll probably draw the line in the sand with Sanders.

so accounts are currently being migrated and we can expect a way to merge them next week if i understand? dope