[QUOTE=Pandamox;39152825]I wasn't talking specifically about your mother in that case, i just referenced her in the beginning when i was stating that some people don't have time. Your mother is one of the rare (and acceptable) cases where her weight gain was very clearly out of her control, due to medication. You need to read in to what i'm saying a little more
You seem to be using the case of your mother gaining weight because of medication to try to nullify everything i'm saying. It's as if you're trying to tell me that a majority of people that are overweight are overweight because of medication? I understand that in your mothers case that's what caused it, and because of that she's clearly exempt from what i'm saying. In no way are a majority of the people overweight from things out of their control, which is the point i'm trying to make.[/QUOTE]
No, what I'm stating is that my mother suffered because of assumptions. Generalizations. Even if they are fat because they are lazy, they may excel in other things, such as computer work. While I do agree that overweight people stating, "I'm fat for genetic reasons" is for the most part wrong, I also believe that discriminating against them is wrong if you do not know their case prior, as is what happens oftentimes. That's my argument.
[QUOTE=Zally13;39152869]No, what I'm stating is that my mother suffered because of assumptions. Generalizations. Even if they are fat because they are lazy, they may excel in other things, such as computer work. While I do agree that overweight people stating, "I'm fat for genetic reasons" is for the most part wrong, I also believe that discriminating against them is wrong if you do not know their case prior, as is what happens oftentimes. That's my argument.[/QUOTE]
And I agree with you. Discriminating anyone for any reason whatsoever is entirely wrong, and i'm sorry to hear that your mother had to suffer such things. All of what i've written and am saying though is directed towards people who are overweight by their own actions and own choices, and more specifically people who attempt to justify said actions and choices. I'm not discriminating against them or making fun of them, i'm just saying that it's pathetic and shouldn't be acceptable. It's a sad reality too when most people that are overweight, or worse obese, are in that situation because of themselves.
[editline]9th January 2013[/editline]
Oh and what does someone excelling in computer work have anything to do with them being overweight? I understand that perhaps they've invested time in being very good with computers rather than working out, but i still don't find that as any sort of an excuse for being overweight. Your body is yours and you only have one, people who let it get to that state voluntarily disgusts me.
Furthermore, "no citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable" This reinforces what i'm saying about only having one body. Who the fuck wants to live in an overweight, ugly, encumbering, sickening, unhealthy body. People that make that choice is what i find disgusting
fatty fatty boom batty
[QUOTE=Pandamox;39152890]And I agree with you. Discriminating anyone for any reason whatsoever is entirely wrong, and i'm sorry to hear that your mother had to suffer such things. All of what i've written and am saying though is directed towards people who are overweight by their own actions and own choices, and more specifically people who attempt to justify said actions and choices. I'm not discriminating against them or making fun of them, i'm just saying that it's pathetic and shouldn't be acceptable. It's a sad reality too when most people that are overweight, or worse obese, are in that situation because of themselves.
[editline]9th January 2013[/editline]
Oh and what does someone excelling in computer work have anything to do with them being overweight? I understand that perhaps they've invested time in being very good with computers rather than working out, but i still don't find that as any sort of an excuse for being overweight. Your body is yours and you only have one, people who let it get to that state voluntarily disgusts me.
Furthermore, "no citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable" This reinforces what i'm saying about only having one body. Who the fuck wants to live in an overweight, ugly, encumbering, sickening, unhealthy body. People that make that choice is what i find disgusting[/QUOTE]
didn't state being good with computers was a good reason for being overweight, i was simply stating that being overweight doesn't make you a bad person, and you can be good at other stuff, it was the first example to come to mind
[editline]9th January 2013[/editline]
and those things can make you a good person/citizen/whatever
Ah, i agree with you entirely being overweight doesn't make you a bad person and of course you can be good at other stuff. Fuck look at gabe newell. I'm not saying that people who make that choice of being overweight rather than being healthy are bad, i'm saying that the choice itself is bad. It's unacceptable, and i don't think anyone should make that choice.
BTW I'm not saying that people actively stop and think "i'm going to choose to be fat" what i'm referring to when i say make the choice of being overweight is the several choices that lead them to being overweight. The choice to eat one more piece of cake, or to eat that hamburger instead of that chicken breast, or the choice to sit on your computer playing video games rather than going for a 30 minute jog. That's what i'm talking about when i say people make the choice to be fat.
you could argue that people don't make choices at all and most of the choices made for a fat person are made before they are born
[QUOTE=thisispain;39152971]you could argue that people don't make choices at all and most of the choices made for a fat person are made before they are born[/QUOTE]
u wot m8 how can anyone argue that
genetics don't have an influence so large that no matter what someone does they will be fat, everyone has the power to lose weight and even body build to an extent genetics will just determine ultimately what their body will look like once it reaches it's natural potential, everyone has the ability to reach that potential
[QUOTE=Pandamox;39152997]u wot m8 how can anyone argue that
genetics don't have an influence so large that no matter what someone does they will be fat, everyone has the power to lose weight and even body build to an extent genetics will just determine ultimately what their body will look like once it reaches it's natural potential, everyone has the ability to reach that potential[/QUOTE]
access to proper food, education, and healthcare can definitely play a very large role though.
there's a reason poorer people tend to be fatter.
[QUOTE=Pandamox;39152997]u wot m8 how can anyone argue you that
genetics don't have an influence so large that no matter what someone does they will be fat, everyone has the power to lose weight and even body build to an extent genetics will just determine ultimately what their body will look like once it reaches it's natural potential, everyone has the ability to reach that potential[/QUOTE]
if a fat person eats junk food theres probably a good reason why they eat junk food, whether its to make up for a lack of psychological stimulation, or because they were raised to eat junk food and have no developed taste for anything else
and on a pretentious philosophical level, is free will even really a thing or is a fat person fat because of events set into motion that a fat person had no control over?
basically what im saying, all the shit you're saying are some fantastic rationalisations to prop up your own ego, but i don't think it's very convincing.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39153008]access to proper food, education, and healthcare can definitely play a very large role though.
there's a reason poorer people tend to be fatter.[/QUOTE]
oh fuck lol i thought he was talking about genetics. when you put it that way, those things can absolutely influence a person's physical health and such. still doesn't mean a jog isn't possible, and if they can afford the foods that are making them overweight they can absolutely afford healthier alternatives
[editline]9th January 2013[/editline]
in north america at least i have no idea how it is in other parts of the world
[QUOTE=Pandamox;39153019]oh fuck lol i thought he was talking about genetics.[/QUOTE]
uhm we know environment is just as influential as genetics
[QUOTE=thisispain;39153014]if a fat person eats junk food theres probably a good reason why they eat junk food, whether its to make up for a lack of psychological stimulation, or because they were raised to eat junk food and have no developed taste for anything else
and on a pretentious philosophical level, is free will even really a thing or is a fat person fat because of events set into motion that a fat person had no control over?
basically what im saying, all the shit you're saying are some fantastic rationalisations to prop up your own ego, but i don't think it's very convincing.[/QUOTE]
in terms of NA culture has an influence on all the shit food that people eat, of course. there's no way that the information of a healthy lifestyle isn't widely available to the same people, the excuse of someone "being raised eating junk food" is still pathetic to me. the people raising them to accept such standards are in the wrong, and the people who are being raised that way will become independent at some point. all of these people will at some point in their life encounter the same choices that i make in terms of food or healthy living, doesn't matter if they were raised eating unhealthy foods or not, that is hardly an excuse for them to continue to be unhealthy and overweight later in life.
if you're going to even attempt to bring in such a generalized philosophical statement like that then i have a feeling someone is grasping at straws here
[QUOTE=Pandamox;39153050] the people raising them to accept such standards are in the wrong, and the people who are being raised that way will become independent at some point.
[/QUOTE]
really? at what point is a person completely 100% independent from what they were raised with?
[QUOTE=Pandamox;39153019]oh fuck lol i thought he was talking about genetics. when you put it that way, those things can absolutely influence a person's physical health and such. still doesn't mean a jog isn't possible, and if they can afford the foods that are making them overweight they can absolutely afford healthier alternatives
[editline]9th January 2013[/editline]
in north america at least i have no idea how it is in other parts of the world[/QUOTE]
yea but let me give you a little hypothetical.
jane gets pregnant at the age of 19. she comes from a very poor family and in fact has to rely solely on food stamps and government welfare. she was never taught how to properly eat, nor was she ready to parent. now there's a very special program for women with children, it's called WIC. this is meant to supplement the mother and child's diet, and it pays for shit like milk and juice. unfortunately juice cocktail is also considered a juice.
so jane here thinks she is being a good mother by getting her kid loaded up on juice cocktail. eventually the child becomes so accustomed to the juice that he refuses to drink water entirely. she is also incredibly bad as a cook so she ends up getting a lot of junk food, especially mcdonalds, for her child.
so her child now has a strong taste for incredibly sugary drinks and incredibly fatty/greasy food. he has become accustomed to it, it's what he knows. is he really to blame for his upbringing? you can say that he has a choice later in life, but the habits he has picked up from infancy will be incredibly hard to break.
the choice to eat healthy isn't as simple as it may seem. when you are raised to eat junk you will always crave junk.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39153060]yea but let me give you a little hypothetical.
jane gets pregnant at the age of 19. she comes from a very poor family and in fact has to rely solely on food stamps and government welfare. she was never taught how to properly eat, nor was she ready to parent. now there's a very special program for women with children, it's called WIC. this is meant to supplement the mother and child's diet, and it pays for shit like milk and juice. unfortunately juice cocktail is also considered a juice.
so jane here thinks she is being a good mother by getting her kid loaded up on juice cocktail. eventually the child becomes so accustomed to the juice that he refuses to drink water entirely. she is also incredibly bad as a cook so she ends up getting a lot of junk food, especially mcdonalds, for her child.
so her child now has a strong taste for incredibly sugary drinks and incredibly fatty/greasy food. he has become accustomed to it, it's what he knows. is he really to blame for his upbringing? you can say that he has a choice later in life, but the habits he has picked up from infancy will be incredibly hard to break.
the choice to eat healthy isn't as simple as it may seem. when you are raised to eat junk you will always crave junk.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, being brought up with such a lifestyle will ingrain that unhealthy lifestyle in a person and i understand that is a large factor for people being overweight into adulthood. As i've stated before, talking in reference to North America, unless these people have little to no education, social life, access to entertainment of any kind, they [b]will[/b] be exposed to a healthier lifestyle. I do understand habits are hard to break, be it chewing your finger nails or eating KD every night for dinner. These people are still going to have the knowledge that what they're doing is unhealthy, they'll still have the knowledge of what they can do to change it. It's incredibly unlikely for these people, in adulthood, to not be aware that they're living an unhealthy lifestyle and that they can change it. At that point, i find it unacceptable for them to be unhealthy and overweight. If you have the knowledge and power to change it, yet don't, you're lazy. Even if you were raised thinking that way is okay, i have a hard time believing that they're going to carry that in to adulthood with the levels of discrimination and general non-acceptance of overweight individuals in the NA society.
[editline]9th January 2013[/editline]
And that's precisely the point i was making at the top of the page, people encouraging and accepting overweight individuals is absolutely moronic to me and pisses me off to no end
[QUOTE=Pandamox;39152327]
as someone who personally spends at least 2 hours a day bodybuilding 6 days a week, and has been for 3+ years to sculpt my body into what i think is as good as i can genetically be, when people start to sympathize for anyone who is clearly overweight by choice and see people like me as obsessed and wasting time i get incredibly pissed off. why is the western world so retarded sometimes[/QUOTE]
I agree, this stuff pisses me off to no end.
Fine, be happy with your body but don't go saying that people who actually care about their body are obssessed losers because of whatever reason it is that makes you angry when you see a fit person (probably jealousy). The amount of baseless accusations and pure ignorance of bodybuilding shown in that first image is sickening. Thank god I live in Australia where exercising regularly is seen as a good thing by most people.
i don't think you're quite getting it. it isn't a matter of simply [i]knowing[/i] that your lifestyle is unhealthy, it's the changing part that is hard. when you have a taste for a certain food, it can be stressful to abstain from it. it's one of the reason so many diets fail.
and then when things are stressful or depressing then you want to turn to that comfort food that you were raised with. hell, i still make myself "egg in a basket" when i'm sick because my mom would make it for me when i was a kid. i still like to go to mcdonalds after doing something noteworthy in my life because as a child my family always celebrated with mcdonalds. we all love to revert to those foods we ate as a kid.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39153150]i don't think you're quite getting it. it isn't a matter of simply [i]knowing[/i] that your lifestyle is unhealthy, it's the changing part that is hard. when you have a taste for a certain food, it can be stressful to abstain from it. it's one of the reason so many diets fail.
and then when things are stressful or depressing then you want to turn to that comfort food that you were raised with. hell, i still make myself "egg in a basket" when i'm sick because my mom would make it for me when i was a kid. i still like to go to mcdonalds after doing something noteworthy in my life because as a child my family always celebrated with mcdonalds. we all love to revert to those foods we ate as a kid.[/QUOTE]
No, i definitely understood that part. I'm arguing more for people that don't even make the effort to change in the first place, hence the title of the thread and what most of my posts are referring to. Fat acceptance. People that don't make any effort to be healthy, they just accept it. I absolutely admire people that are overweight and attempt to make a change, even if they fail at first. I know it can be incredibly difficult for those people to make that change, and i'm glad i never let myself get to that state in the first place. Yet no matter how difficult it is to change it's still very much possible, and although i admire those people that attempt to make that change but still revert back to their old habits, i don't find it acceptable
I don't discriminate against or talk bad about fat people, because I'm a generally polite and decent person, but on the same token, I'm not going to go out of my way to make things easier for fat people.
If they wanted help, I'd gladly offer it to them, but I'm not going to press them to change themselves. If they want to live like that, let them.
On the issue of fat women, I don't find them attractive at all. I find their bodies disgusting, not in an insulting way, but in a subjective way. I simply don't think a fat woman can be beautiful.
I used to have a bit of chub, but I worked it off. A lot of people don't realize just how easy it is. You really gain a lot of self confidence from it too.
[QUOTE=Strider*;39152570]Good points all around.
But what the fuck are you doing for 2 hours in the gym?[/QUOTE]
It's quite easy to spend 2 hours in the gym.
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;39153577]It's quite easy to spend 2 hours in the gym.[/QUOTE]
it's one thing to spend two hours in the gym, it's another to be kicking your ass the whole time while you're at it
as far as i'm concerned, Pandamox challenges bears to wrestling matches and arm-wrestles silverback gorillas for fun anyways
[QUOTE=thisispain;39152971]you could argue that people don't make choices at all and most of the choices made for a fat person are made before they are born[/QUOTE]
Which can apply to younger kids and whatnot. When a child is obese, I don't sit here going, "omg what a lazy kid," his environment is doing that to him.
But there becomes a point when a child is no longer a child. Eventually that kid will find out obesity is unhealthy and he is eating too much, then it becomes his choice what to do with it. Sure, those habits will be tough to break, but saying he has no control over it is just ridiculous.
There is no excuse to being fat, really. No excuse that is worth it, probably the best one I can think of is "I'm a sumo wrestler". You WILL lose weight, guaranteed, by reducing your calorie intake, and starting to eat better. This may go faster or slower than expected depending on CERTAIN genetic factors, but you will ALWAYS lose weight if you remain constant. There's really no limitation, really skinny people can lose weight as well (Only that it's obviously not healthy), and you can [url=http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html]actually lose weight by eating oreos and candy bars JUST by reducing your calorie intake[/url] (Not recommending anybody to do this, just showing an example of how important it is).
If you can't stop eating, literally you can't cut the anxiety caused by your hunger, then you may be actually suffering from an eating disorder, and you should go to a doctor for it, as you can get treatment, I have had family that got treatment for their out of control obesity, somewhat triggered by hormonal disorders, and a gastric band did the trick for them. There's psychological as well as physiological causes for obesity, but it's guaranteed you can get treated, and get healthy. Yes, healthy. Being fat is not healthy at all.
And you don't have to have a six pack to be healthy, you don't need to get ripped and have a 5% body fat ratio. You just have to be under regular, normal weight ranges for your height so you don't cause additional load to your body, you will always feel better, weight less, and look better after reaching a healthy weight. This woman is advocating for a potentially harmful, sedentary lifestyle that should not be excused or accepted. Yes, there are diseases that make you gain weight, yes, there is genetic and hormonal disposition to getting fat, but this just means you have to try harder to regain your health, not give up and beg everyone to accept you.
Also, child obesity, I consider it to be far more dangerous than adult obesity, you're creating habits that will stick through that child's life and that will become very hard to reverse, and it's all because of sweet and candy companies marketing their vaguely nutritional products to kids. All kids should be of a healthy weight to be able to enjoy their childhood and later life free of any complications, if as a parent you're allowing your kid to gain weight deliberately you are doing something wrong.
[IMG]http://img1.uploadscreenshot.com/images/orig/1/815421913-orig.png[/IMG]
Does anyone have a mirror for it?
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;39153577]It's quite easy to spend 2 hours in the gym.[/QUOTE]
It's not common to actually be working out for 2 hours.
I guess I could see someone loitering that long, or in the case of Pandamox who appears to be a very serious bodybuilder. I accept his explanation.
[QUOTE=Strider*;39159170]It's not common to actually be working out for 2 hours.
I guess I could see someone loitering that long, or in the case of Pandamox who appears to be a very serious bodybuilder. I accept his explanation.[/QUOTE]
Depends on what circuits you're doing really.
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;39159222]Depends on what circuits you're doing really.[/QUOTE]
I can see somebody doing cardio for like, 30 minutes or so, then strength training/lifting to take about hour, hour and a half. Then again, I wouldn't do that 6 days a week.
[QUOTE=Strider*;39159170]It's not common to actually be working out for 2 hours.
I guess I could see someone loitering that long, or in the case of Pandamox who appears to be a very serious bodybuilder. I accept his explanation.[/QUOTE]
Hell, I'm a serious bodybuilder and I take no longer than an hour.
It's easy to condense workouts when there's a sense of urgency.
[QUOTE=WeekendWarrior;39159222]Depends on what circuits you're doing really.[/QUOTE]
True, I tend to think that high volume workouts are worthless for most of the people in the gym though.
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