Scottish Independance - General

[QUOTE=carpie;34574389]As a Scot I used to be Unionist. But the growing anti-Scottish attitude since the SNP came to power makes me want to vote independance. I'm sick and tired of being called a leech and people saying that Scots are too stupid or unable for one reason or another to make their own way in the world. I want out of the Union. Maybe the English do pay for us. If thats the case then I'd rather pay more and stand on my own two feet than listen to all this nastiness.[/QUOTE] Living in the SE of England i can catagoricly say this is a very distorted veiw that is aired by media for their own gains regardless of who it may hurt, There is friendly banter at most but as far as im aware from what iv'e seen the overall majority of England don't hate the scott's at all.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34607024]Can someone explain to an ignorant American what color represents what party?[/QUOTE] Each colour corresponds to a different constituency and the party with the majority of votes in said constituency; yellow is SNP, red is Labour and blue is Conservative.

[QUOTE=st0rmforce;34605000]I find that this topic has so much bullshit thrown around by the media and politicians, that I'm not sure if I actually know any real facts of the matter.[/QUOTE] So let's try and establish some facts! - The English and the Scots have shared the same Parliament at Westminster since the Acts of Union (1707), since known as, "Great Britain." - Prior to 1707, Scotland and England had been ruled by the same monarch since James II of Scotland inherited the English throne in 1603. - Since 1998, Scotland has had its own -devolved- legislature. Some legislative powers were granted to the new Scots Parliament, while Westminster retained reserve powers. - The United Kingdom has traditionally functioned as a unitary state - meaning most decision are made by Westminster and Whitehall. - Northern Ireland now also enjoy devolved Parliamentary privileges. - Scotland and England have always had a fiece national rivalry. Watch any Rugby match, Braveheart, or just talk to someone. Several wars were fought between them in the Middle Ages, and Scotland allied itself with France for a time in order to guarantee its security from English invasion. As for the less factual but more important; - The SNP (Scottish National Party) believes Scottish MPs should be removed from Westminster, the Union dissolved and Scotland gain independence (either as a republic, or an independent kingdom under Elizabeth II, as it was before 1707). Whether they state this openly as policy or not is a different question. - To repeat a bit of a previous post, this has all happened before with Quebec and Canada. I am -insistent- this will play out almost the exact same way. See my last post for the CBC archives of the 1995 referendum. As well, Quebec had two independence referendums, the first in first in 1980 and again in 1995. - [B]The question for the referendum is not yet determined.[/B] This is important because it became a source of tension between federalist and seperatist forces in Quebec. Who determines the question may affect the result. - One of the proposed options for the referendum is a system called "Devo-max." Sounds a little like "Sovereignty Association" to me. - The SNP, and many of their supporters, feel that Scotland will be "better off" without England; interpret as you may. - The SNP, and many of their supporters, feel that the cultural development of Scotland is hindered by its relationship with England. I don't know if this has been stated directly, but it's fairly implicit from their platform. At least the first half is all fact, but the second half is at least part interpretation. The problem with it all is that there are only the facts you make of it. It's just nationalism, as cold as it comes. [sp]Sorry for the wall of text D:[/sp]

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34607024]Can someone explain to an ignorant American what color represents what party?[/QUOTE] The yellow I think is the SNP, the red is labour, the blue is the conservatives and the orange colour i think is the lib dems, although i always thought they were yellow.

[QUOTE=toxicpiano;34578571]please leave [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/qGV9P.png[/IMG] take the north of england, ni and wales with you tia[/QUOTE] That is ridiculous. Everyone knows that a wealthy area is geared up to make more wealth, especially as Tories in the past have greatly screwed over all the areas with bars in the far left. The comment underneath also irks me, because surely the problem is a lack of spread of productivity in the UK, not having one powerhouse support the rest of the country.

If they think they're ready, i think everyone should have a shot at independence.

The world needs to be more united, not more divided.

Shouldn't a people have the right to self determination, regardless if it's economically smart or not?

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34666886]Shouldn't a people have the right to self determination, regardless if it's economically smart or not?[/QUOTE] Not really, the Scottish nationality truly died out in the 1800s. What you see today has been more or less invented by Victorian writers. The people in the north and south are more or less the same.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;34668497]Not really, the Scottish nationality truly died out in the 1800s. What you see today has been more or less invented by Victorian writers. The people in the north and south are more or less the same.[/QUOTE] If they don't feel that way, then not completely.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34678411]If they don't feel that way, then not completely.[/QUOTE] But it's like Texas seceding from the US, it's just silly and unproductive.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34678481]But it's like Texas seceding from the US, it's just silly and unproductive.[/QUOTE] I would support Texan independence if they really wanted it. The UN says, "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34679361]I would support Texan independence if they really wanted it. The UN says, "All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."[/QUOTE] Yeah, but the Scottish nationality is more or less invented. If you went back to the early 19th century before writers like Walter Scott showed up, the people in the North of Britain would see themselves as British rather than Scottish. The reasons for splitting are arbitrary and invented. It's similar to Texas, but imagine if both Texas and the USA had been in union for centuries and had been speaking and writing the same way for 1000 years. Then imagine if they followed the same religion for 1500 years. I was born and I live in Northern Britain myself, and under no circumstances would I ever support Scottish independence.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34678481]But it's like Texas seceding from the US, it's just silly and unproductive.[/QUOTE] scotland isn't a state of england

[QUOTE=DuncanFrost;34682823]scotland isn't a state of england[/QUOTE] No it's a state within Britain

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34682996]No it's a state within Britain[/QUOTE] No it's a state within the United Kingdom.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;34680382]Yeah, but the Scottish nationality is more or less invented. If you went back to the early 19th century before writers like Walter Scott showed up, the people in the North of Britain would see themselves as British rather than Scottish.[/QUOTE] You've never actually read the works of Scottish writers as far back as the 17th century, have you? The whole Scottish Enlightenment period as well? You're an idiot. In other words, spouting bullcrap that makes you feel good for dismissing the right to self-determination. [editline]13th February 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Bawbag;34683111]No it's a state within the United Kingdom.[/QUOTE] Which used to be the United KingdomS

[QUOTE=Bawbag;34683111]No it's a state within the United Kingdom.[/QUOTE] Britain and the United Kingdom are one and the same

[QUOTE=Craigewan;34683289]You've never actually read the works of Scottish writers as far back as the 17th century, have you? The whole Scottish Enlightenment period as well? [/QUOTE] That wasn't nationalism. Scotland as an independent nation is an idea long dead. Britain should be a single state and never be again divided into smaller parts.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34683312]Britain and the United Kingdom are one and the same[/QUOTE] Nope. Britain is the island. United Kingdom is the union between Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. [editline]13th February 2012[/editline] The (former) British Empire, is the UK, Canada, Jamaica, etc etc. Britain and the UK are not the same thing.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;34683312]Britain and the United Kingdom are one and the same[/QUOTE] Britiain is the Island and the UK is the country. If you said Britain you're not including islands like Anglesey or Northen Ireland. Scotland cannot leave Britain unless it caused a extreme act of geology.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;34680382]Yeah, but the Scottish nationality is more or less invented. If you went back to the early 19th century before writers like Walter Scott showed up, the people in the North of Britain would see themselves as British rather than Scottish. The reasons for splitting are arbitrary and invented. It's similar to Texas, but imagine if both Texas and the USA had been in union for centuries and had been speaking and writing the same way for 1000 years. Then imagine if they followed the same religion for 1500 years. I was born and I live in Northern Britain myself, and under no circumstances would I ever support Scottish independence.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;34684408]That wasn't nationalism. Scotland as an independent nation is an idea long dead. Britain should be a single state and never be again divided into smaller parts.[/QUOTE] Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 15 states: [release](1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.[/release] So what if it's "made up", it's with in their rights to make it up, believe in it, and obtain self determination through it.

If we get independence we will probably lose all the monetary support from the union, taxes will go up and our free university probably won't last very long. It's a fucking stupid idea and to any fellow Scotsman who supports SNP, their just as bad as the Tories.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;34686760]Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 15 states: [release](1) Everyone has the right to a nationality. (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.[/release] So what if it's "made up", it's with in their rights to make it up, believe in it, and obtain self determination through it.[/QUOTE] But that's just silly. You are talking about splitting up millions of people for completely arbitrary reasons, and not even half of the people in this place want independence. Most nationalists I have met are mainly people who also tend to be racist, homophobic, etc. Those people should not be allowed to run a country along those guidelines.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;34693281]But that's just silly. [/QUOTE] Self determination is not silly. It is a human right. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;34693281]You are talking about splitting up millions of people for completely arbitrary reasons,[/QUOTE] Self determination is not an arbitrary reason, if people want independence, they deserve it. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;34693281]and not even half of the people in this place want independence.[/QUOTE] I never said Scotland "should" be independend, I said if that's what the people want, let them have it. If majority want to remain how they are, I'm all for that as well. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;34693281]Most nationalists I have met are mainly people who also tend to be racist, homophobic, etc. Those people should not be allowed to run a country along those guidelines.[/QUOTE] This is a bit subjective, as I'm sure you haven't met all, let alone a majority, of the nationalists that want independence. Nor is there an absolute certainty that "racists" would gain power after independence.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;34557645]Scotland would go bankrupt within a few years of declaring independence.[/QUOTE] This is true.

Probably not. England would keep the union as long as they can. After all, in around 100 years, Britain lost many colonies. I still think Scotland should be able to run it's self. After all, it's not a state in Britian, but a nation in the UK union... (same for Northern Ireland)

[QUOTE=Torjuz;34795136]Probably not. England would keep the union as long as they can. After all, in around 100 years, Britain lost many colonies. I still think Scotland should be able to run it's self. After all, it's not a state in Britian, but a nation in the UK union... (same for Northern Ireland)[/QUOTE] I would say that the UK is more of a nation than a Union. Same language, same money, same religious views, same ethnic background, same genetics, etc.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;34801490]I would say that the UK is more of a nation than a Union. Same language, same money, [B]same religious views[/B], same ethnic background, same genetics, etc.[/QUOTE] Oh my god... Are you serious?

[QUOTE=Torjuz;34809656]Oh my god... Are you serious?[/QUOTE] As a whole, that is true. Scotland and England hold significantly different political views however, again as a whole. I honestly think one of the best arguments against independence is that a good portion of votes for non-conservative parties comes from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. If we were to leave, you poor bastards would be stuck with arseholes like Cameron for decades. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.