[QUOTE=27X;49682303]Ah the rusty100 defense: Post a deliberately shitposty "opinion" about a facet of a game's [B]basic core presentation[/B] and then feign indifference and boredom as you're deluged under a biblical tirade of boxes.
"Hey guys you know what I don't like about Mass Effect? Aliens. The alien races in this game were so unnecessary, like the game would have been so much better without them".
-_-[/QUOTE]
Funfact: The "Rip and Tear" stuff from the comic didnt just come from nothing. The game might not have been brutal doom but it was based around hyper violence.
John Fucking Carmack coined the term "Gibs" for fucks sake. SPECIFICALLY in reference to Doom.
There were really not many games in the early 90's / 80's that were nearly as openly violent as doom was
there was a lot of pretty bad shit around that time, some even more violent than doom, but doom in comparison is a farcry from what nearly everything else was.
Its the game that practically glorified violence in a way that was new and fresh. It made violence mainstream, rather than some video game niche.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;49682319]Funfact: The "Rip and Tear" stuff from the comic didnt just come from nothing. The game might not have been brutal doom but it was based around hyper violence.
John Fucking Carmack coined the term "Gibs" for fucks sake. SPECIFICALLY in reference to Doom.[/QUOTE]
Playing some of the last chapter levels on "Ultra-Violent" in Doom 1, you can see where the hyper violence comes from. I just think when most people think of doom, they think of e1m1, which is incredibly tame compared to the episode 4 craziness.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49682248]well, it DID have a cover system, so there is that. That doesn't really help make it differ much from current games. But the original wolfenstein was all about using cover tactics, so modern games don't really differ from the first shooter ever made either.
Alternative routes are 100% the way to go. It makes the game worth replaying, and modern engines have the power to make it happen.[/QUOTE]
I think it would be better if it took after Doom as that is considered the pinnacle of fps at the time. Which in that case had a handful of enemies that were very different. Albeit that had the freedom of being demons rather than Nazi soldiers. (However even then I was dissapointed. There weren't any bosses. I was expecting to fight [sp]that Nazi officer lady that shows you the pictures on the train as you see her multiple times later on. All you got was a quick time event killing her lover or whatever[/sp]
TNO wasn't bad but I don't see the hype behind it.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49682054]I'm not talking about gore itself, but the context and nature of it
you have a problem with the 'realism' of the gore
my argument is that unrealistic amounts of gore are a part of the unrealistic amounts of violence. The gore being as extreme as it is, is an anomaly of the weapons and monsters being as extreme as they are. They go hand in hand. Making it "Realistic" wouldn't cut it graphically. You have weapons that are powerful enough to kill an opponent in 1, maybe 2 hits, it's probably going to rip their head off or slice them in 2.
I'm sorry that my post was too 'boring' to read though. I guess I'll just make it more exciting next time, with unrealistic levels of gore.
[video=youtube;lk2QmeoLwH8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk2QmeoLwH8[/video][/QUOTE]
No I FUCKING don't. I literally said in the last fucking post
[quote]I probably could have used a better fucking adjective for other then , but I didn't.[/quote]
What I fucking meant was I guess more akin to unneeded I guess.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49682392]No I FUCKING don't. I literally said in the last fucking post
What I fucking meant was I guess more akin to unneeded I guess.[/QUOTE]
what are you even trying to tell me
in neither of my posts did I say anything about you having a problem with gore itself
can you please explain it without using "Fuck" in every sentence.
[editline]6th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49681530]there's a point I feel where it just becomes too unrealistic and extreme. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49682046]ow when [U]a[/U] game uses excess amounts of it.[/QUOTE]
I thought my posts were [U]VERY CLEARLY talking about the amount and realism of gore, not gore itself[/U]. It was about the (un)realism of it and how it's invalid to talk about how realistic [U]excess [/U]gore is in a game that is, by nature, unrealistic.
like, I already explained this. It's not my fault that you can't read my posts.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;49682279]Have you.[/QUOTE]
yes
in fact, my entire early life was -filled- with DOS shenanigans, I've got very fond memories of running through not just DOOM 1 and 2 with my grandfather, but Wolfenstien + Spear of Destiny and Duke Nukem as well (not counting the tons of shitty wads we'd play)
thank you though! your opinion clearly takes precedent
[QUOTE=27X;49682303]Ah the rusty100 defense: Post a deliberately shitposty "opinion" about a facet of a game's [B]basic core presentation[/B] and then feign indifference and boredom as you're deluged under a biblical tirade of boxes.
"Hey guys you know what I don't like about Mass Effect? Aliens. The alien races in this game were so unnecessary, like the game would have been so much better without them".
-_-[/QUOTE]
Ah yes I'm totally trying to imitate Rusty100. Bravo for seeing through my ruse.
No, this is not at all what is fucking happening. I'm not trying to "feign indifference" or whatever stupid shit you're thinking up. I'm getting sick of people arguing the same shit over and over again, or not interpreting my point correctly (although partially I guess that's my fault). Kind of ironic that's what you're doing here isn't it? I didn't even realize I was getting rated at all for these posts. Nor did I intentionally make "A shitposty opinion" with the intent to do this, especially since I'm actually trying to argue it out. You're completely wrong with this in every aspect.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Calm down" - rilez))[/highlight]
Well you kinda skewed whatever your intentions were by insisting doom, a notoriously gory game, wasn't gory. Which probably confused quite a few (including myself) as that's hard to hear without thinking somebody isn't being serious.
I have literally never heard [I]anybody[/I] say that ever
the gore in the new doom is clearly trying to appeal to an audience that is entertained -because- of the gore, not what it adds to the game.
Doom 1 and 2 understood how to employ it for thematic effect, and as a whole it really helped with the aesthetic of those games.
DOOM so far has shoved it out as a 'check out these sick cool moves holy shit he ripped out his -eye-!'
[QUOTE=J!NX;49682409]what are you even trying to tell me
in neither of my posts did I say anything about you having a problem with gore itself
can you please explain it without using "Fuck" in every sentence. [/quote]
You literally went "you have a problem with the 'realism' of the gore". I said it exactly in the post you were responding to that I do not. I'm swearing so much because I'm seriously annoyed about the fact that I have to spend more of my time of this dumbshit argument that isn't going anywhere.
[quote][editline]6th February 2016[/editline]
I thought my posts were [U]VERY CLEARLY talking about the amount and realism of gore, not gore itself[/U]
like, I already explained this. It's not my fault that you can't read my posts.[/QUOTE]
It's not my fault you can't read mine!
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49682423]Ah yes I'm totally trying to imitate Rusty100. Bravo for seeing through my ruse.
No, this is not at all what is fucking happening. I'm not trying to "feign indifference" or whatever stupid shit you're thinking up. I'm getting sick of people arguing the same shit over and over again, or not interpreting my point correctly (although partially I guess that's my fault). Kind of ironic that's what you're doing here isn't it? I didn't even realize I was getting rated at all for these posts. Nor did I intentionally make "A shitposty opinion" with the intent to do this, especially since I'm actually trying to argue it out. You're completely wrong with this in every aspect.[/QUOTE]
Why do you keep griping about the gore in Doom?
I think that you guys are drastically misinterpreting what he's trying to get at here. Sure he didn't phrase it well, that's more than an acceptable argument, but to -purposefully- target him down based on that rather than the actual idea he was trying to push is pretty rediculous all around guys.
It's incredibly hard to have a rational discussion in -any- of the DOOM threads that pop up because people immediately will gangbang you with boxes and say 'you're just dont understand!' if you suggest that perhaps -maybe- DOOM is going a little too far with it and devaluing its impact.
[QUOTE=Bloodshot12;49682429]Well you kinda skewed whatever your intentions were by insisting doom, a notoriously gory game, wasn't gory.
I have literally never heard [I]anybody[/I] say that ever[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I will admit I screwed up there. I never really payed attention to the death animations in Doom, I was more focusing on that douchebag imp over there on that column after I killed something.
[editline]6th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;49682437]Why do you keep griping about the gore in Doom?[/QUOTE]
Because other people are responding to my post. That's how a discussion works?
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49682435]You literally went "you have a problem with the 'realism' of the gore". I said it exactly in the post you were responding to that I do not. I'm swearing so much because I'm seriously annoyed about the fact that I have to spend more of my time of this dumbshit argument that isn't going anywhere.
It's not my fault you can't read mine![/QUOTE]
Jesus, I quoted the parts where you talked about exactly what I was referencing
I DIRECTLY talked about exactly the shit that you said you didn't like. I wasn't accusing you of "hating gore", I was actually reading into your posts and responding appropriately. You said you didn't like 'unrealistic' and 'extreme' amounts and I responded with "the unrealistic amounts are just a part of it". How is that NOT reading your posts?
Now you're just being a giant baby about it.
and yes, you have a problem with the realism of gore. You literally said yourself that you don't like excess gore. What are you even saying? That I'm just a dumbshit that can't read?
I think you should chill out
[QUOTE=J!NX;49682183]hey now, lets now be caustic about it
don't be a spoil sport broskeets[/QUOTE]
I even tried to reply to people who were just misreading your posts.
[QUOTE=Cocacoladude;49682437]Why do you keep griping about the gore in Doom?[/QUOTE]
Stuff like this, for example.
Like I said in my prior post, my primary gripe with DOOM's handling of gore is that it's not to -any- effect. The spotlit nature of it saps out any impact the gore has, and its easy enough to see that the killmoves will become extremely repetitive and bland once you've played a good couple hours of the game.
Doom 1 and 2 had the perfect blend, it paid off your kills with a nice show without affecting pacing at all and let you know 'hey this games for realsies, no kids shit here'. As you went on to the later episodes, it became more and more part of the level design as well, which worked wonders because it genuinely made you feel uneasy about the increasingly hellish landscapes you're overcoming
[QUOTE=J!NX;49682446]Jesus, I quoted the parts where you talked about exactly what I was referencing
I DIRECTLY talked about exactly the shit that you said you didn't like. I wasn't accusing you of "hating gore", I was actually reading into your posts and responding appropriately.
Now you're just being a giant baby about it. Instead of responding with any amount of intelligence to the first person who actually properly responded you give a shitty "you bore me, READ MY POST BETTER" reply.[/QUOTE]
Except no, not at all. I fucked up by saying unrealistic and you go of on a tirade about how you shouldn't expect realistic gore from and unrealistic game, so when I make an admittedly hostile post about what I mean about the unrealistic part you somehow still keep going with that. And I didn't mean to say you were boring me, I meant this whole discussion about gore in general. I've basically been saying the same shit over and over since like page 3, and people are still making posts about stuff that should have been clarified 2 pages ago. When you continued on with the exact same argument about unrealistic vs realistic, it broke the camels back because it seemed that you weren't getting the point of my previous post.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;49682433]
Doom 1 and 2 understood how to employ it for thematic effect, and as a whole it really helped with the aesthetic of those games.
DOOM so far has shoved it out as a 'check out these sick cool moves holy shit he ripped out his -eye-!'[/QUOTE]
Sure the bodies and imagery did this, but as for the enemy gore, in doom 1 and 2 its still more of a feedback tool.
We've yet to see enough to suggest how extensively they've used gore thematically in the environments beyond a few disfigured dead bodies in screenshots so it's not really something we can talk about much yet.
[quote] it became more and more part of the level design as well, which worked wonders because it genuinely made you feel uneasy about the increasingly hellish landscapes you're overcoming[/QUOTE]
Diablo 1 made use of the gore in much the same way to great effect, especially when encountering stuff like the butcher.
I can't say doom's use of it had that much of an effect on me, but that was probably because I was a kid when i first played it, and there were also newer games I was playing around the same time so that may have effected my perceptions of it.
[QUOTE=TornadoAP;49682460]I've basically been saying the same shit over and over since like page 3.[/QUOTE]
That's the usual jazz in facepunch. People are going to reply to your very first post 7000 pages from now and totally be oblivious to every single other post past that in the entire thread. That's what happens when you make a hot post.
Personally it's something that I've gotten used to. It's not really possible to avoid it.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49682479]That's the usual jazz in facepunch. People are going to reply to your very first post 7000 pages from now and totally be oblivious to every single other post past that in the entire thread. That's what happens when you make a hot post.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, unless it's a topic I really care about I don't usually stay past like page 3 on a debate-able topic. By that point it's just bickering because both sides are too deeply entrenched in their own beliefs and opinions that nothing's going to change.
Oh and I apologize for swearing every 4th word earlier. At that point I was angry since xalener was getting seriously annoying and then 27X came in with retarded assumptions that were so far from the truth they circumnavigated the world.
Anyways I'll make a new post where I hopefully clear up completely what I mean.
[QUOTE=Bloodshot12;49682464]Sure the bodies and imagery did this, but as for the enemy gore, in doom 1 and 2 its still more of a feedback tool.
We've yet to see enough to suggest how extensively they've used gore thematically in the environments beyond a few disfigured dead bodies in screenshots so it's not really something we can talk about much yet.
Diablo 1 made use of the gore in much the same way to great effect, especially when encountering stuff like the butcher.
I can't say doom's use of it had that much of an effect on me, but that was probably because I was a kid when i first played it, and there were also newer games I was playing around the same time so that may have effected my perceptions of it.[/QUOTE]
And that last line is the root of the issue
When DOOM 1 and 2 employed their gore, it was a fantastic use that was able to shock people of the time -because- it was unheard of. Now, gore is -significantly- less effective thanks to its over saturation in the media, particularly video games.
Perhaps ID understood this and decided to push it to an extreme in order to reinvigorate the interest in gore, but I'm of the personal belief that it just makes things goofy looking. I'm not even going to try to cover the killmoves just because I seem to in every thread, but for everything they've shown they've done nothing to dispel the image that it's a flow-breaking exhibition of the gore system. While that's plenty fine to do, it's not an awful system, it's a far cry from the calculated, finely tuned body horror usage that the original games nailed perfectly.
You could be very right about the level design potentially taking an episode 3 turn, but from what they've released of the hellscape they seem to be going for a more stylized variant of the more traditional hell brought up in Doom 3 (which isn't bad at all, I thoroughly enjoyed the hell sequences in 3. Say what you will about it being 'too gray', they did a damn fine job with the overall design and as a young lad I had many moments where I'd be frozen in a corner petrified of what might come up next)
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;49682448]Stuff like this, for example.
Like I said in my prior post, my primary gripe with DOOM's handling of gore is that it's not to -any- effect. The spotlit nature of it saps out any impact the gore has, and its easy enough to see that the killmoves will become extremely repetitive and bland once you've played a good couple hours of the game.
Doom 1 and 2 had the perfect blend, it paid off your kills with a nice show without affecting pacing at all and let you know 'hey this games for realsies, no kids shit here'. As you went on to the later episodes, it became more and more part of the level design as well, which worked wonders because it genuinely made you feel uneasy about the increasingly hellish landscapes you're overcoming[/QUOTE]
And you're completely absolutely wrong. It imparts the nature of what can happen to the player and why movement and accuracy are paramount with instant visual-mechanical feedback in a way that you back-dating 20 years of "mood" via terrain doesn't. It very distinctly sets up a criteria of cause and effect between combatants at a set intensity. Scary terrain doesn't even kinda have shit to do with kinaesthetic feedback.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;49682521]
You could be very right about the level design potentially taking an episode 3 turn, but from what they've released of the hellscape they seem to be going for a more stylized variant of the more traditional hell brought up in Doom 3[/QUOTE]
Really? I thought their overall direction of hell seemed more reminiscent of the older doom games, with the pointy spire mountains with floating bits reminding me of that particular ending screen from doom
[t]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/doom/images/4/49/Deimos_End_Picture.png/revision/latest?cb=20140415012329[/t]
[t]http://assets.vg247.com/current//2015/07/doom_quakecon_2.jpg[/t]
(I'm guessing the game doesn't have the sulfur-filter anymore judging by the new footage tho)
Even the trees they showed (at the top) looked awfully similar to the gnarled tree sprites in the old games
[t]http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1443850/doom-cacodemon.jpg[/t]
[t]http://doomwiki.org/w/images/thumb/9/98/Sprites-clipping-opengl-port.png/320px-Sprites-clipping-opengl-port.png[/t]
[QUOTE=27X;49682554]And you're completely absolutely wrong. It imparts the nature of what can happen to the player and why movement and accuracy are paramount with instant visual-mechanical feedback in a way that you back-dating 20 years of "mood" via terrain doesn't. It very distinctly sets up a criteria of cause and effect between combatants at a set intensity. Scary terrain doesn't even kinda have shit to do with kinaesthetic feedback.[/QUOTE]
It seems like you've gone out of your way to misinterpret my post, taking the level detail as some sort of effect on gameplay (even though it distinctly DID impact gameplay, as episode 3 in particular used its outlandish locale to introduce strange environments that had interesting implications gameplay-wise. Strongest thing I can remember is the room filled with pillars of 'flesh' checkerboarding the room, rising up and down like pistons creating a very neat little segment that fit the aesthetic to a tee)
As I've said a few times now, the use of gore in Doom 1 and 2 was not only a shocking thing, like you pointed out it provides an immediate visual feedback for players. You can tell when you've killed something immediately, much like how the enemy designs are distinct enough that you can instantly assess your situation at a glance.
My point being by mentioning the later levels incorperation of body horror into the level textures and whatnot was that is also served to fuel the atmosphere and tone of the game, ontop of the gameplay benefits provided. Currently we have no good examples of this being the case in the new DOOM, though as Bloodshot pointed out we don't have much of an image of the endgame yet, so that's anyones say at this point.
[editline]6th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bloodshot12;49682583]Really? I thought their overall direction of hell seemed more reminiscent of the older doom games, with the pointy spire mountains with floating bits reminding me of that particular ending screen from doom
[t]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/doom/images/4/49/Deimos_End_Picture.png/revision/latest?cb=20140415012329[/t]
[t]http://assets.vg247.com/current//2015/07/doom_quakecon_2.jpg[/t]
(I'm guessing the game doesn't have the sulfur-filter anymore judging by the new footage tho)
Even the trees they showed (at the top) looked awfully similar to the gnarled tree sprites in the old games
[t]http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1443850/doom-cacodemon.jpg[/t]
[t]http://doomwiki.org/w/images/thumb/9/98/Sprites-clipping-opengl-port.png/320px-Sprites-clipping-opengl-port.png[/t][/QUOTE]
I'm thinking more of the ingame interpretation rather than the images provided outside of the actual nitty gritty, though you are absolutely correct in that it clearly takes more cards from the originals than Doom 3 did. I'd say it's a nice merger of the two
[editline]6th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=27X;49682554]And you're completely absolutely wrong.[/QUOTE]
To go back to this post, this is exactly the kind of thing that I was mentioning earlier in which for whatever reason when it comes to the DOOM threads, you end up getting more of this argument than anything else.
I do think he has a point though, maybe it's just me but I've always felt in games with gore or anything considered "horrific" there's a bit of a disconnect when you see things happen to NPCs or things in the environment that might paint a picture, but nothing like it can ever happens to you.
Like the scientists being dragged up into the vents in HL1, or dudes being picked up and thrown by hellknights in doom 3.
When I first played HL1 I was terrified of going near those vents in HL1 until I realized nothing like that ever happened in the game (which was pretty shortly I might add)
This is something that I like about Doom 4 so far, as seeing a baron rip my legs off or a hellknight beating you to a pulp (was in the e3 trailer) when you die makes them a little more menacing. Whether they will be skippable isn't confirmed yet but the conan footage seemed to show you could load your game while the animation plays so I think I'll be happy with them. Also, seeing that happen to a buddy in coop modes is gonna be [I]cool[/I].
I didn't misinterpret anything. You're attempting to use a vague contextual given that was cultural and apply it to feedback that is mechanical as well as visual and entirely specific.
It also happens to be what I do for a living.
And you're absolutely not wrong on that. It does provide a certain tangible gameplay benefit to it that conveys an actual sense of adversity. More games ought to take the card of 'what you see is what can be done'. I honestly have no issue with the -death- animations, I loved that shit in say Dead Space.
My issue primarily lies in the focus they've pushed on it on the players end. While it may be empowering for a short while, kill moves have been a deeply flawed system for the simple reason that you can only have so many animations for your kills. It -will- get repetitive after while, unless they manage to do what VERY few games could pull off in the past.
I'm no discounting the fact that they could make a miracle with it, if they could make the killmoves satisfying while not holding up the game's pace through the whole game, I'll be estatic. But from what they've shown, there hasn't been much improvement on the system as a whole.
It's just one of those things that we need to wait and see over, I presume.
[editline]6th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=27X;49682618]I didn't misinterpret anything. You're attempting to use a vague contextual given that was cultural and apply it to feedback that is mechanical as well as visual and entirely specific.
It also happens to be what I do for a living.[/QUOTE]
Congratulations? Your proposed superiority on the topic doesn't really mean much when we've go so little to work with as a whole when it come to the new title.
[editline]6th February 2016[/editline]
I'd just like to thank Bloodshot for keeping things down to a proper conversation rather than a pissing match, its much appreciated given the usual tone of these threads.
Ever since gore was one of the main points latched on to as being "poisonous" by the media , it's been a tentative subject in gaming. It's one of those things where people latched on to the thing that was hated about them, or what they do, sort of like Yankee Doodle Dandee. It went to a point where people were wanting to add gore into pretty much every game. I say went, when in reality it's still kind of happening, like that one guys previous comment about how I was "a pussy ass bitch" or Xalener's recent posts. It's a problem if you ask me, because people don't understand that gore isn't just something you should throw extreme amounts of into every situation. It's something to accent and change the view of the game world, and can even be a reward in some cases. Take the original Doom 1 and 2. Like No Party Hats said before, the gore in it isn't just randomly thrown about in extreme amounts. It's something that accents the feel of Doom, of the world of horror you just stepped into or how the only way out of it is to absolutely decimate everything you can. It's a part of the game, but it's not the focus. Whether this is a detriment to the new game is up for debate, but what I was originally responding to all the way back when I first commented on this subject was how the guy wanted gore to be the focus of the game. In short, gore does have it's place in games, but the idea that throwing extreme amounts of it or making it the focus of a game is just stupid.
Hope that cleared some things up.
Honestly, my big problem so far isn't with the game itself. From the Game Informer articles and the snippets of real gameplay we get, it looks and sounds fine to me.
It's that the marketing team, whether in Id or at Bethesda as the publishers, can't get their heads out of their asses and keep trying to do this cinematic "look at how RIP AND TEAR we are guys!" horseshit. You'd get a lot more people over the fence if you showed some actual goddamn gameplay instead of the constant pacebreaker brutalities, and they have a bloody Snapmap system they could use to showcase fights just as well without spoiling Campaign content.
[QUOTE=RikohZX;49682646]Honestly, my big problem so far isn't with the game itself. From the Game Informer articles and the snippets of real gameplay we get, it looks and sounds fine to me.
It's that the marketing team, whether in Id or at Bethesda as the publishers, can't get their heads out of their asses and keep trying to do this cinematic "look at how RIP AND TEAR we are guys!" horseshit. You'd get a lot more people over the fence if you showed some actual goddamn gameplay instead of the constant pacebreaker brutalities, and they have a goddamn Snapmap system they could use to showcase fights just as well without spoiling Campaign content.[/QUOTE]
And this is another big thing too, for whatever reason they're very heavily focusing on the kill moves in all of the promotional material. While I totally think that it deserves to be shown off before the game launches, people like myself are already starting to get worn out when it comes to the system purely because they're pushing it so hard.
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