[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49105855]The Witcher 3 was developed by a considerably larger team and didn't exactly have a small budget, CDPR is flooded with cash thanks to GOG.
[editline]13th November 2015[/editline]
Then you'd lose the huge modding capability and thus kill a large portion of the Fallout playerbase.[/QUOTE]
Nothing from stopping Beth from using a in-house engine that they can make specifically for their needs
[QUOTE=cdr248;49105874]Nothing from stopping Beth from using a in-house engine that they can make specifically for their needs[/QUOTE]
Maybe they don't want to spend five to six years at the very best developing an engine from the ground up only to have it be outdated by the time it comes out because it'd take them another five years t o make a game on it.
Bethesda's not very good at handling engines to begin with so them making a brand new in-house engine with modding capability to boot doesn't mean it'd be inherently good, or any better than Creation Engine's current state.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49105900]Maybe they don't want to spend five to six years at the very best developing an engine from the ground up only to have it be outdated by the time it comes out because it'd take them another five years t o make a game on it.
Bethesda's not very good at handling engines to begin with so them making a brand new in-house engine with modding capability to boot doesn't mean it'd be inherently good, or any better than Creation Engine's current state.[/QUOTE]
What is outsourcing. Seriously though they've got plenty of money and plenty of talented folks, just not enough of folks and not enough time. Beth could have a whole R&D team but they just don't. Many other studios do it, I don't see why Beth can't.
I'd honestly rather wait twice as long for them to release a game in the hopes that they might make a game that doesn't feel 5 years old a month after it has released.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
if the current method of using bethbryo over and over again isn't working then perhaps they should do something different is all i'm saying
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
and if you're going to rate me dumb for saying Beth is mostly lost potential then at least try and smarten me up
a new outlook on things wouldn't hurt, would probably make me feel less disappointed
[QUOTE=cdr248;49105972]What is outsourcing. Seriously though they've got plenty of money and plenty of talented folks, just not enough of folks and not enough time. Beth could have a whole R&D team but they just don't. Many other studios do it, I don't see why Beth can't.
I'd honestly rather wait twice as long for them to release a game in the hopes that they might make a game that doesn't feel 5 years old a month after it has released.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
if the current method of using bethbryo over and over again isn't working then perhaps they should do something different is all i'm saying
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
and if you're going to rate me dumb for saying Beth is mostly lost potential then at least try and smarten me up
a new outlook on things wouldn't hurt, would probably make me feel less disappointed[/QUOTE]
Do you think it's a good idea for a company to spend 8-10 years developing an engine and technology for the future which is highly uncertain? Is there no reason to suspect that could be a bad idea? Are there no precedents for that?
[QUOTE=Xonax;49105654]Why do people bend over when it's Bethesda?[/QUOTE]
Because they're the only company that gives back anymore to the degree present.
Remember when CDPR was gonna have the same capabilities present in the witcher? Welp, we gotta pay for license tools so fuck that and fuck modding other than 2303194230592305 sweetfx presets and some texture replacements cause no Modkit is coming cause CDPR ain't fronting the bill for no pleb licenses.
You can hate on the genericness of Beth's world all you want, but that genericness drives sales big time. People can apply their ____ directly to the game in a way that you can't in almost any other game, and so people line up and let the hype train run along, cause Beth's world is all about headcanon, and being one of the few purveyors that actually approach this methodology correctly, for better or worse.
In a perfect world Obsidian would be the ones building the narrative from a skeleton Beth provided, but Beth's business dept ensured that'll never happen again.
In a normal world story crafting will have be done by someone willing to narrow down the world, and the simple paradigm is the more you narrow things down, the more customers you lose.
Beth is one of the few companies that allow ANY kind of aftermarket content creation, whether they approve of it or not, you simply aren't going to find that anywhere else and whether for good or ill they're providing a venue on their own dime to even set that up for consoles.
And thus people buy in.
Beth is selling a frame of mind as much as they are a product.
Also if you don't like it, sure as hell do not buy it.
The last thing you ever want to do as a big game dev company is to outsource [I]any[/I] of your development related stuff. That's a recipe for disaster, almost always have been.
And if Bethesda outsources an entire engine then there's no reason why it'd be any better than the creation engine.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49106067]The last thing you ever want to do as a big game dev company is to outsource [I]any[/I] of your development related stuff. That's a recipe for disaster, almost always have been.
And if Bethesda outsources an entire engine then there's no reason why it'd be any better than the creation engine.[/QUOTE]
But it worked so well for Colonial Marines
[QUOTE=27X;49106078]But it worked so well for Colonial Marines[/QUOTE]
And postal 3
[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;49105437]Gamebryo is fine, it's just Bethesda+Gamebryo that creates awfulness.
Rocksmith, Sid Meier's Pirates, Catherine, Bully and Civ 4 were all pretty good games and all used Gamebryo.[/QUOTE]
Bully was much better when it was on Renderware.
[QUOTE=Atlascore;49106021]Twice as long? You do realize that's 8-10 years you're asking for, right? Absolutely fucking ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Call me crazy but yes. If they can polish their game to a point where it can stand the test of time for far longer than any of their other games, I'd be chill with that.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49106113]Call me crazy but yes. If they can polish their game to a point where it can stand the test of time for far longer than any of their other games, I'd be chill with that.[/QUOTE]
Except ten years is literally the span of an entire generation of consoles so by the time your engine is done it'd already be outdated.
And if you try to keep the engine up to date constantly as you make the game then you end up with a Daikatana/Duke Nukem Forever/Doom 4 situation where the game's stuck in development hell because the devs are ordered to constantly rework the engine from the ground up to fit with current standards.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49106067]The last thing you ever want to do as a big game dev company is to outsource [I]any[/I] of your development related stuff. That's a recipe for disaster, almost always have been.
And if Bethesda outsources an entire engine then there's no reason why it'd be any better than the creation engine.[/QUOTE]
They don't have to outsource it to a complete third party, Beth's owned by a publisher and it's not uncommon for publishers to hire teams of programmers dedicated to crafting an engine. If Beth programmers simply aren't good then what's wrong with hiring better ones? With their popularity they practically have the pick of the litter.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49106127]Except ten years is literally the span of an entire generation of consoles so by the time your engine is done it'd already be outdated.
And if you try to keep the engine up to date constantly as you make the game then you end up with a Daikatana/Duke Nukem Forever/Doom 4 situation where the game's stuck in development hell because the devs are ordered to constantly rework the engine from the ground up to fit with current standards.[/QUOTE]
You're taking my post too literally (and I apologize because I did make it seem very literal). The point of the matter is that I simply wish Beth would improve more on the technical aspects of their games, and if I must wait longer to do so then I'd be content with waiting. You said it yourself that you just cheat throughout the entirety of NV because you think the combat is jank and shit, don't you want to finally be able to play a Beth game where the combat isn't a chore?
Programmers and developers aren't drones and you can't randomly pick someone from another team and throw him in a new team and expect things to fly well. Establishing a workflow requires the devs to actually know each other and know how they work so randomly throwing strangers in the group isn't gonna help.
Also, you don't just get to know what programmer is better than what programmer, it doesn't work on an individual level like that and people don't have power levels written on their forehead like a convenient stat in a video game. You can't just transfer people because their programming skills somehow reach an arbitrary value that you somehow know.
Working on an engine requires more than creating a patchwork of blokes who are good in their own field, it requires a proper team, which would be quite a lot more expensive and time consuming than hiring a couple of people to add to your team.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49106132]
You're taking my post too literally (and I apologize because I did make it seem very literal). The point of the matter is that I simply wish Beth would improve more on the technical aspects of their games, and if I must wait longer to do so then I'd be content with waiting. You said it yourself that you just cheat throughout the entirety of NV because you think the combat is jank and shit, don't you want to finally be able to play a Beth game where the combat isn't a chore?[/QUOTE]
I was able to play a beth game where the combat isn't a chore, it's called Fallout 4.
The combat in Fallout 3 and NV is jank and shit not because of engine limitations but because of poor design decisions linked with the rpg elements of the game, something that Fallout 4 fixed well when they decided to actually make the game a good shooter.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49106152]Programmers and developers aren't drones and you can't randomly pick someone from another team and throw him in a new team and expect things to fly well. Establishing a workflow requires the devs to actually know each other and know how they work so randomly throwing strangers in the group isn't gonna help.
Also, you don't just get to know what programmer is better than what programmer, it doesn't work on an individual level like that and people don't have power levels written on their forehead like a convenient stat in a video game. You can't just transfer people because their programming skills somehow reach an arbitrary value that you somehow know.
Working on an engine requires more than creating a patchwork of blokes who are good in their own field, it requires a proper team, which would be quite a lot more expensive and time consuming than hiring a couple of people to add to your team.[/QUOTE]
Regardless I think it would be worth the effort. If Beth wants to make their games any better than they currently are they need to do more.
They could just keep doing what they do best and passively improve on the other aspects as time goes which is what they've been doing since Morrowind.
is there a good reason why they're still using gamebyro?
i guess it's easy to mod and ???
They don't have to pay for it, and none of their subcontractors have to pay for it.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49106152]Programmers and developers aren't drones and you can't randomly pick someone from another team and throw him in a new team and expect things to fly well. Establishing a workflow requires the devs to actually know each other and know how they work so randomly throwing strangers in the group isn't gonna help.
Also, you don't just get to know what programmer is better than what programmer, it doesn't work on an individual level like that and people don't have power levels written on their forehead like a convenient stat in a video game. You can't just transfer people because their programming skills somehow reach an arbitrary value that you somehow know.
Working on an engine requires more than creating a patchwork of blokes who are good in their own field, it requires a proper team, which would be quite a lot more expensive and time consuming than hiring a couple of people to add to your team.
I was able to play a beth game where the combat isn't a chore, it's called Fallout 4.
The combat in Fallout 3 and NV is jank and shit not because of engine limitations but because of poor design decisions linked with the rpg elements of the game, something that Fallout 4 fixed well when they decided to actually make the game a good shooter.[/QUOTE]
I intended more for an improved engine to help with optimization and such, the games just run awful and the visuals feel limited by it. In terms of gamefeel Fallout 4 is an improvement, but it's not enough of an improvement I feel. It's good for Bethesda but 'good for Bethesda' still feels flawed.
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49106169]They could just keep doing what they do best and passively improve on the other aspects as time goes which is what they've been doing since Morrowind.[/QUOTE]
Then we'll probably be waiting more than 10 years for a Bethbryo game that isn't horribly flawed on a technical level.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;49106177]is there a good reason why they're still using gamebyro?
i guess it's easy to mod and ???[/QUOTE]
It just works!
Even if you had Konami license the damn FOX Engine to Bethesda, their resulting game would probably still be glitchy, quirky and feel/look outdated somehow.
Surprisingly, I haven't had that many bugs. I've had animation issues as well as general jankiness with the horrible new dialog system, but the game's been relatively stable and hasn't presented any issues that kept me from progressing.
I do pretty much agree with George though. The game is good from a core mechanical standpoint (how it plays), and the lighting (besides the interior lighting) and world are pretty damn nice looking. Everything else is such a let down though, especially for someone who's a fan of the original Fallout games as well as New Vegas.
The writing has somehow gotten worse than it was in Fallout 3. Maybe it being paired with a very limited dialog system with choices that give you no chance to deviate from a pre-determined character only seem to amplify Bethesda's usual flaws even more, but it just seems especially bad this time around. I literally have no interest or concern for any of the characters, I have no motivation to go through the main story outside of just general game completion. Even in comparison to Bethesda's other RPGs, it just falls flat in terms of production and quality.
Every play session I have with the game, I end and start the game with the same question. "Do I REALLY want to continue to play this game?" There's no doubt in my mind that the game is fun from just a mechanical standpoint (and I haven't even started the settlement building yet), but everything else is just such a massive drag that it's hard to bring myself to want to play it again. I've never had this issue with Bethesda's other RPGs, and this issue in general is not a good one to have. I want a game to hook me in and make me think about it even just the want of playing it. I want a game to make me want to come back to it while I'm playing it, and maybe even want to try it again later after I've been done with it. I only want to stop playing a game because I've either finished it, or I simply just couldn't find the time for it. Not because I have doubts about wanting to play it.
I don't even think modders can fix it for me this time, unless they just decide to completely re-write the story and quests. Or pull a TTW and port the Mojave Wasteland over to the Fallout 4 version of the engine (which would require a shitton of work because of the new rendering system).
Wow, he has the same issues with textures that I have (LOD textures getting stuck/covering proper ones). And that's when I was starting to think I might be in some fringe minority with that problem. Hope Beth fixes it.
I'm surprised I find myself agreeing with [b]every single point[/b], that happens rarely. Like when he showed Piper and said that she's the first character to be so well animated and so well acted as if she was from a different game entirely, I couldn't help but think he took the exact words from my head. Although if I reviewed the game, I would've wiped my ass with Beth's new dialogue system a lot more. Because it's exactly as I thought and said (multiple times) it would be. It sucks and it's worse in every single way than in previous games. It is limited as hell, it is poorly worded and misleading ("Diamond city?" - "What's Diamond city, IS MY BABY THERE, PLEASE TELL ME?!", it's like "middle aged guy daddy", but given voice this time and you don't get to see it before your character spouts that).
The humour in dialogues is dead and buried, it's either super serious (and so, stupid) or just stupid. And again, you can't see what your character is about to say, so waiting for something witty you can easily be presented with something dumb as fuck. "Sarcasm" is option is never elaborated, so the character might say the exact opposite of what you want her/him to say.
You can't investigate because half (fucking two of four) options advance the dialogue tree and there's no way to go back, what's worse, there's no telling which ones do it. I realize it's partly to avoid the awkwardness of Mass Effect/Dragon age style conversation system that is infamous for causing inconsistencies in tone of dialogues, but come on. There's only so much you can do to streamline the dialogue system, and Bethesda went completely overboard.
And mind you, I actually really like voiced dialogue. I like the PC actors' performance (trying my best not to be bothered too much with exactly [i]what[/i] they're saying), I love the system itself, how you can walk around, cut the conversation off, how animated and lively conversations are. Even if the system's kinda cumbersome and indeed janky, it shows that developers put some soul in it, like the small details when your character says "mhm..." and "uh-huh..." when you skip parts of the dialogue.
And when I say that some soul was put in it, I mean it. It shows that Bethesda actually worked on the dialogue system, tried to make it fun, responsive, intuitive. Unlike their other addition, settlement building, which is half-assed all over the place. In some ways, mods for FoNV/Fo3 are better thought-through than what the developers came up with, and it's sad, and it's showing that they really couldn't be bothered with making it decent. You tried, Bethesda. An effort was made. I hope modders will bring perfection into what developer has left pretty much unfinished.
The writing I'm not even going to touch, it's Bethesda, we all knew what that entails from the start. Same goes for the sad, sad state of the game's technical side, how time and again Bethesda manages to stun the world with their complete lack of quality control, and how some people with powerful machines are having huge problems with performance and textures, while others play on potatoes just fine, and how no one really knows why that is and what it depends on*... we've seen it all before. Sure it's bad, sure it shouldn't be forgiven just because it happens every single time, but I'm not really the one to complain - I knew full well what I'm going to get and bought it anyway on launch day. I am the problem with the industry today, yes. As it stands, for me shitty castrated dialogues are about ten times more important than performance and bugs (which I haven't noticed that much, I lucked out).
*like the dialogues randomly cutting off and weird skipping in parts George and many people in this thread mentioned. I haven't noticed it happening at all. It didn't happen [b]once[/b] to me, and I run around and talk to people way more than I shoot stuff so far. Maybe it has to do with framerate or something like that?
[QUOTE=cdr248;49106193]
[editline]12th November 2015[/editline]
Then we'll probably be waiting more than 10 years for a Bethbryo game that isn't horribly flawed on a technical level.[/QUOTE]
now it crosses from valid complaints to whining.
it's not 'horribly flawed on a technical level', it has its hiccups absolutely. But it's playable, hell it's really -enjoyable-. I don't give a fuck if a game is janky if it's fun, and bethesda games deliver on the jank and the fun 100% of the time in my books. I'm not being an apologist here either, I love The Guild 2 for example, another game that's pretty fun but is ACTUALLY unplayable broken at times. Fun trumps all in video games, dont forget that
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;49103611]Fallout 4 is so weird because it's both really great and really awful at the same time.
[/QUOTE]
That's how I feel about all the bethbryo games
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;49106177]is there a good reason why they're still using gamebyro?
i guess it's easy to mod and ???[/QUOTE]
They've been using it for a while and know the intricacies of the engine well enough to modify it and keep it relatively up to date. There aren't that many engines out there that support open worlds the way Bethesda does them, with the modding capability that Creation Engine has.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;49107365]now it crosses from valid complaints to whining.
it's not 'horribly flawed on a technical level', it has its hiccups absolutely. But it's playable, hell it's really -enjoyable-. I don't give a fuck if a game is janky if it's fun, and bethesda games deliver on the jank and the fun 100% of the time in my books. I'm not being an apologist here either, I love The Guild 2 for example, another game that's pretty fun but is ACTUALLY unplayable broken at times. Fun trumps all in video games, dont forget that[/QUOTE]
I wont deny that the games are fun, but I just dont like the concept that even today I still have to wrestle with the game.
To just have to sit there and say "oh its just bethesda" is getting tiring
[QUOTE=DasMatze;49103369]I must be very lucky. Apart from some spazzing out ragdolls I haven't encountered any bugs or glitches so far.[/QUOTE]
Stuff that happened so far for me
Codsworth randomly punching a friendly NPC in his face, turning everyone hostile
Even tough it claimed it Autosaved multiple times, it did not, after I died I lost almost 30 minutes of progress
Unlimited ammo
NPCs refusing to talk to me
Spazzing out models and ragdolls in areas where they were hand placed (part of the level design)
I can't shoot anymore
Pipboy and weapons are invisible
Dogmeat pushes himself into a cliff and disappears for good
Subtitles are freezing
TAB not working
Workshop claims that I have no steel anymore when I repair the power armor, however the workshop bench had over 600 pieces of steel left.
Textures are not loading properly
Securitron corspes in some areas are invisible, however, they still have damage decals on them
Turrets spawn invisible pieces that can be looted but not seen
Even when the wind is calm, trees and bushes shake at high speed, it's like watching a time lapse
Very rarely, it takes up to 6 minutes to load a save.
Diamond City Radio - very long awkward pauses of absolute silence
The game is not launching when I play it in fullscreen
But I played for only 17 hours so far so the list WILL grow
Maybe if yall had an xbone this stuff wouldn't happen! praise be Todd!
[QUOTE=AWarmMoose;49108568]Maybe if yall had an xbone this stuff wouldn't happen! praise be Todd![/QUOTE]
Reports say consoles are the worst for it. But maybe I'm wrong because a few people on Facepunch with Xbones were fine.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49105855]
Then you'd lose the huge modding capability and thus kill a large portion of the Fallout playerbase.
[/QUOTE]
Why? UE4 is extremely moddable for example. Changing engine does not mean giving up on modding. If anything, modding could be greatly improved. Especially when it comes to scripting.
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