[QUOTE=livelonger12;39194777]It would help drive a country from austerity. They should be required to give them back, they've received help and support and should give that back. [B] Going on benefits was their choice.[/B][/QUOTE]
??????
Yeah you have no idea what you are talking about and I am grateful the most power you have ever held was store supervisor.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;39195328]You're very fucking ignorant of people with disabilities.
I'd actually explain in detail, from personal experience, but I have a feeling that you'd ignore it or dismiss it as irrelevant or, as an ignorant fuckwad simply call me lazy.
Believe me, there's nothing more I'd [B]love[/B] to do than be able to work (have you any idea how isolating being housebound is) and earn more than the pittance that I'm on right now, but in a realistic world, simply can't.
Because believe me, having your food budget at no more than £1.50 a day isn't all that fun.
OP it seems to me that you're lumping in people who genuinely can't work, with the ones that don't want to work, which is entirely unfair.[/QUOTE]
I am not. Treatment exists to ease any pain or such from disability. Only those who are wholly incapacitated are unable to work. For the rest, just accept treatment and go to work.
[editline]12th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=account;39194813]Their choice? What if the other alternative was to starve and live in the streets?[/QUOTE]
They should look to their peers for support. There are alternatives. All they have to do is work for their livelihood. There should be no alternative to working.
The alternative to working is leeching (unless you of course earned the right to be lazy (i.e. only pensioners, veterans of war or the rich who earned their money to give to their offspring/themselves -- they all worked for it)).
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39195457]I am not. Treatment exists to ease any pain or such from disability. Only those who are wholly incapacitated are unable to work. For the rest, just accept treatment and go to work.[/QUOTE]
You really are. You're saying that unless someone is a total vegetable they should be out working, regardless of any other considerations.
Alright, I wasnt going to go into this, but I shall.
I suffer, every single day, from immense pain, [B]every single waking minute[/B],pain so bad that its all you can do not to scream in agony. it's that bad that I'm barely functional most of the time, and the times I am functional, I move like a 90 year old. Pain so extreme that you hardly sleep, I'mtalking a couple hours a night here, The pain is so bad that it's extremely difficult and exhausting to focus on doing any physical tasks, that the times where I have to, mean I'm thoroughly exhausted and need lots of time to recover, for christs fucking sake, if i go for a fucking piss I need an hour to recover from it. And to you, this is somethign that should just be gotten over? There are no treatments for me, and the medication to reduce my pain well enough so that I'd be functional, has to be administered at such a high level, that I'm basically vegetative. Due to the massive gap in my Resume because of my condition, I'm barely employable, and even if I were, no employer on the face of this planet pays enough that the few hours a week I'd be able to work, would be a livable wage. Frankly, I'm better off being shot and put out of my misery, but society seems to have a problem with something like that.
And just incase you're wondering, that what I've described above is just one of the about half dozen or so health problems I've got going on at the moment, but according to you, I should just get over it and work a 40 hour week!
and the funny thing is, there are people in the world who have things worse off than I do.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;39195537]You really are. You're saying that unless someone is a total vegetable they should be out working, regardless of any other considerations.
Alright, I wasnt going to go into this, but I shall.
I suffer, every single day, from immense pain, [B]every single waking minute[/B],pain so bad that its all you can do not to scream in agony. it's that bad that I'm barely functional most of the time, and the times I am functional, I move like a 90 year old. Pain so extreme that you hardly sleep, I'mtalking a couple hours a night here, The pain is so bad that it's extremely difficult and exhausting to focus on doing any physical tasks, that the times where I have to, mean I'm thoroughly exhausted and need lots of time to recover, for christs fucking sake, if i go for a fucking piss I need an hour to recover from it. And to you, this is somethign that should just be gotten over? There are no treatments for me, and the medication to reduce my pain well enough so that I'd be functional, has to be administered at such a high level, that I'm basically vegetative. Due to the massive gap in my Resume because of my condition, I'm barely employable, and even if I were, no employer on the face of this planet pays enough that the few hours a week I'd be able to work, would be a livable wage. Frankly, I'm better off being shot and put out of my misery, but society seems to have a problem with something like that.
And just incase you're wondering, that what I've described above is just one of the about half dozen or so health problems I've got going on at the moment, but according to you, I should just get over it and work a 40 hour week!
and the funny thing is, there are people in the world who have things worse off than I do.[/QUOTE]
You have my utmost sympathies for your suffering. However, you must understand that it is those who are in work and working that are paying for your sustenance. You have managed to make over 4000 forum posts here, and possibly in many other parts of the internet. You could at the very least with the time - when you're able to - give back to those who allow you to have your sustenance. Perhaps you could do some writing for a local tabloid or something but doing work is certainly better than doing no work. You said you would love to work but you can -- if you can write these forum posts, then you can write for a local tabloid at the very least.
I don't want sympathy from someone who see's disabilities as a black and white "get over it" issue.
Except with the benefits I'm on, I can't even do a little of volountary work (if i could) without fully losing said benefits, which equates to me ending up homeless.
Yes, I have made many posts on here, over a period of YEARS, even staying focused enough to try and explain it to you is draining.
In a way, I do give back, just not in any tradition sense, but I won't go into that.
Also, It's not like I horde the money that I get, I pay my bills, buy my food and stuff, and thus contribute the money i get back to local and non local businesses, thus increasing their profits, even if only a little bit, thus paying back a bit to the people who contribute to my sustenance.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;39195813]I don't want sympathy from someone who see's disabilities as a black and white "get over it" issue.
Except with the benefits I'm on, I can't even do a little of volountary work (if i could) without fully losing said benefits, which equates to me ending up homeless.
Yes, I have made many posts on here, over a period of YEARS, even staying focused enough to try and explain it to you is draining.
In a way, I do give back, just not in any tradition sense, but I won't go into that.
Also, It's not like I horde the money that I get, I pay my bills, buy my food and stuff, and thus contribute the money i get back to local and non local businesses, thus increasing their profits, even if only a little bit, thus paying back a bit to the people who contribute to my sustenance.[/QUOTE]
It's not so much that they're "black and white" but rather that during the times when they're feeling well, that they should spend that time doing some sort of work.
Then you should try talking with a local employment center or such, and query them of whether they can get you some work to do during the times you feel better.
Sure, you don't horde the money or such but you're still getting free food, water, shelter and energy. You should be required to give that back when you're able to do something, even if it's the least of your abilities at those times. The time you spend making these forum posts could be time spent doing some sort of work.
[quote]It's not so much that they're "black and white" but rather that during the times when they're feeling well, that they should spend that time doing some sort of work.[/quote]
Except "feeling well" is entirely relative, for some, feeling well is nothing lke what t is for a normal person. To me, feeling well, is being able to (even if barely) physically get out of bed in the morning, to me feeling "well" is not being in incandescent agony that leaves me a hairsbreadth away from screaming.
[quote]
Then you should try talking with a local employment center or such, and query them of whether they can get you some work to do during the times you feel better.[/quote]
I have, the benefits I'm on, much like your views on this, are black and white, either I'm on them, or I'm off them, and if I'm off them not only do i have to wait 6 months before going back on it, but then I have to go through this whole circus just to get back on them. I can't go back and forth whenever I'm feeling "well"
[quote]Sure, you don't horde the money or such but you're still getting free food, water, shelter and energy. You should be required to give that back when you're able to do something, even if it's the least of your abilities at those times. The time you spend making these forum posts could be time spent doing some sort of work. [/quote]
Find me someone who will pay a livable wage of a few hours a week (those hours being completely random and depending upon a whole lot of variables) and I'll gladly give back. Realistically, that's never going to happen. I never know when I'll be capable of moving around and when I'm not, and I'd like to see an employer willing to just let me come in whenever I'm up for it!
LEt me ask you this, have you ever had a physical disability, or been close aquiantances with someone who has?
Why do I post so much on the forums? I'll answer you, 1. becuase the internet is pretty much the only thing keeping me sane, since I lack a social life or even the ability to go out of the house often! and 2. Typing requires very minimal effort, I could type all day and even then it'd be less physical effort than even just a journey to and from work.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39195907]It's not so much that they're "black and white" but rather that during the times when they're feeling well, that they should spend that time doing some sort of work.
Then you should try talking with a local employment center or such, and query them of whether they can get you some work to do during the times you feel better.
Sure, you don't horde the money or such but you're still getting free food, water, shelter and energy. You should be required to give that back when you're able to do something, even if it's the least of your abilities at those times. The time you spend making these forum posts could be time spent doing some sort of work.[/QUOTE]
So if I am to trust you you have apparently been in a position of management.
So tell me, would you ever hire someone who's work hours are basically "whenever he feels like it"?
I also love how you basically want someone who suffers debilitating pain almost every moment of his life to work during the rare moments that he is not impaired by it. I'd love to see you be willing to live such a life.
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;39196006]Except "feeling well" is entirely relative, for some, feeling well is nothing lke what t is for a normal person. To me, feeling well, is being able to (even if barely) physically get out of bed in the morning, to me feeling "well" is not being in incandescent agony that leaves me a hairsbreadth away from screaming.
I have, the benefits I'm on, much like your views on this, are black and white, either I'm on them, or I'm off them, and if I'm off them not only do i have to wait 6 months before going back on it, but then I have to go through this whole circus just to get back on them. I can't go back and forth whenever I'm feeling "well"
Find me someone who will pay a livable wage of a few hours a week (those hours being completely random and depending upon a whole lot of variables) and I'll gladly give back. Realistically, that's never going to happen. I never know when I'll be capable of moving around and when I'm not, and I'd like to see an employer willing to just let me come in whenever I'm up for it!
LEt me ask you this, have you ever had a physical disability, or been close aquiantances with someone who has?
Why do I post so much on the forums? I'll answer you, 1. becuase the internet is pretty much the only thing keeping me sane, since I lack a social life or even the ability to go out of the house often! and 2. Typing requires very minimal effort, I could type all day and even then it'd be less physical effort than even just a journey to and from work.[/QUOTE]
If at any time you can do work, then do work. Give back, otherwise regardless of whether you are most often in pain, you're just taking from others. Taking from them the pleasure you may experience as some of they have managed to ease such pain, and perhaps grant you more pleasure than what you experience as pain from your incapacity.
Besides, you should petition your desire to work in such time when you can to a local representative so they can bring it up to the superiors of your country.
You should always want to work, for as long as you possibly can.
[editline]13th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;39196350]So if I am to trust you you have apparently been in a position of management.
So tell me, would you ever hire someone who's work hours are basically "whenever he feels like it"?
I also love how you basically want someone who suffers debilitating pain almost every moment of his life to work during the rare moments that he is not impaired by it. I'd love to see you be willing to live such a life.[/QUOTE]
They should work whenever they can and are able to. Whether they're paid for it or not, society has allowed them to persist by granting them their sustenance. All that society asks is that they give something back.
[quote]Give back, otherwise [B]regardless of whether you are most often in pain,[/B] you're just taking from others. Taking from them the pleasure you may experience as some of they have managed to ease such pain, [B]and perhaps grant you more pleasure than what you experience as pain from your incapacity. [/B][/quote]
You have no idea just how much pain I have to suffer every single fucking day.
Totally Ignorant, I'm done trying to make you see things in a non black and white way.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39197415]
They should work whenever they can and are able to. Whether they're paid for it or not, society has allowed them to persist by granting them their sustenance. All that society asks is that they give something back.[/QUOTE]
So basically you want their lives to be filled with eternal servitude during the moments when they are not bedridden by debilitating pain.
livelonger12 for president. He'll pull this country up by the bootstraps.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39197415]They should work whenever they can and are able to. Whether they're paid for it or not, society has allowed them to persist by granting them their sustenance. All that society asks is that they give something back.[/QUOTE]
I know I wouldn't like to live a life where by the only times I don't feel pain I work - and that's why I have no issue with taxmoney going to provide life support for those in need.
I work regardless of pain. I am in pain every day and I push myself to work.
I hate mooching off benefits.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39197415]If at any time you can do work, then do work. Give back, otherwise regardless of whether you are most often in pain, you're just taking from others. Taking from them the pleasure you may experience as some of they have managed to ease such pain, and perhaps grant you more pleasure than what you experience as pain from your incapacity.
Besides, you should petition your desire to work in such time when you can to a local representative so they can bring it up to the superiors of your country.
You should always want to work, for as long as you possibly can.
[editline]13th January 2013[/editline]
They should work whenever they can and are able to. Whether they're paid for it or not, society has allowed them to persist by granting them their sustenance. All that society asks is that they give something back.[/QUOTE]
If you have enough free time to post on an internet forum, you have enough time for a second job. Go be annoying somewhere else.
[QUOTE=Ereunity;39198319]I work regardless of pain. I am in pain every day and I push myself to work.
I hate mooching off benefits.[/QUOTE]
Good. If only everyone else of this thread were just like you, most willing and eager to work as good honest people!
[editline]13th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=itchyflakes;39198402]If you have enough free time to post on an internet forum, you have enough time for a second job. Go be annoying somewhere else.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say breaks weren't omitted. Breaks are necessary - time to focus the thoughts of oneself on something else, or to sleep, etc.
[editline]13th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=RayvenQ;39197800]You have no idea just how much pain I have to suffer every single fucking day.
Totally Ignorant, I'm done trying to make you see things in a non black and white way.[/QUOTE]
Apologies, then keep going trying to convince me. Unfortunately, I see you as being somewhat workshy. Time to play videogames could be time to work, otherwise if you are already working and have been granted a break then that can be opportune time to play videogames.
I work to get money and that is pretty cool, we can't just give out shit free because I'd be abused
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;39198073]I know I wouldn't like to live a life where by the only times I don't feel pain I work - and that's why I have no issue with taxmoney going to provide life support for those in need.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone shares such views. Taxpayers want others like them to be out working and paying their taxes. Benefits should only go to those of utmost need, else when they're of free time that can be applied working, then they should work. Breaks sure are necessary, to cool off from working. However, they should work as often and for as long as possible. That is what the ordinary citizen must do for their people: to commit themselves to drudgery. There should be no alternative to working.
[QUOTE=Ereunity;39198319]I work regardless of pain. I am in pain every day and I push myself to work.
I hate mooching off benefits.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see you say that if you suffered from something like this.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_headache[/url]
"Some doctors and scientists have described the pain resulting from cluster headaches as the most intense pain a human can endure — worse than burns, broken bones or child birth."
[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39198688]I work to get money and that is pretty cool, we can't just give out shit free because I'd be abused[/QUOTE]
Exactly! It's your money that's going to workshy scroungers, or at least even the semi-workshy. Your money not being used by you or which is going to the pleasure of someone else. You worked for that money, you gave part of yourself for it - however minuscule - and it is wrong for that money to go to someone who doesn't give the same back for it.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39198696]Not everyone shares such views. Taxpayers want others like them to be out working and paying their taxes. Benefits should only go to those of utmost need, else when they're of free time that can be applied working, then they should work. Breaks sure are necessary, to cool off from working. However, they should work as often and for as long as possible. That is what the ordinary citizen must do for their people: to commit themselves to drudgery. There should be no alternative to working.[/QUOTE]
Get perma'd already.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39198723]Exactly! It's your money that's going to workshy scroungers, or at least even the semi-workshy. Your money not being used by you or which is going to the pleasure of someone else. You worked for that money, you gave part of yourself for it - however minuscule - and it is wrong for that money to go to someone who doesn't give the same back for it.[/QUOTE]
What are you arguing about again? A lot of homeless can't get a job because of simple reasons like they can't afford clothing, plus in this economy it's very hard to find any sort of job.
I do not agree with people who have chances to get jobs but do not do it anyway however. There are not many people in that position though.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39198696]That is what the ordinary citizen must do for their people: to commit themselves to drudgery. There should be no alternative to working.[/QUOTE]
What if I love my job or find it easy?
Honestly I feel like you're just stuck in a shit job but you're proud of how much shit you've trudged through and you think "everyone has to do what I did because I resent that anyone could have it easier than me!"
[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39198748]What are you arguing about again? A lot of homeless can't get a job because of simple reasons like they can't afford clothing, plus in this economy it's very hard to find any sort of job.
I do not agree with people who have chances to get jobs but do not do it anyway however. There are not many people in that position though.[/QUOTE]
I'm arguing that if you have the opportunity to work, then you should otherwise you shouldn't be given any means of sustenance.
[editline]13th January 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=account;39198769]What if I love my job or find it easy?
Honestly I feel like you're just stuck in a shit job but you're proud of how much shit you've trudged through and you think "everyone has to do what I did because I resent that anyone could have it easier than me!"[/QUOTE]
If you're working, then you're ok. And no, I'm just annoyed that my tax money goes to benefit scroungers.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39198776]I'm arguing that if you have the opportunity to work, then you should otherwise you shouldn't be given any means of sustenance.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but how could you detect whether someone was not trying to get a job but couldn't?
[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39198803]Yeah but how could you detect whether someone was not trying to get a job but couldn't?[/QUOTE]
That's what workfare does. It gives these people on benefits a job and tells them that if they don't work, that their benefits will be sanctioned.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39198828]That's what workfare does. It gives these people on benefits a job and tells them that if they don't work, that their benefits will be sanctioned.[/QUOTE]
But we're a capitalist country, we can't force companies to get workers. I'm guessing you're talking about America
[QUOTE=TheSporeGA;39198843]But we're a capitalist country, we can't force companies to get workers. I'm guessing you're talking about America[/QUOTE]
It has already been done. For the UK, these people on benefits are given work placements in both public and private sector areas.
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39198901]It has already been done. For the UK, these people on benefits are given work placements in both public and private sector areas.[/QUOTE]
I don't know that's pushing the line on freedom
[QUOTE=livelonger12;39198828]That's what workfare does. It gives these people on benefits a job and tells them that if they don't work, that their benefits will be sanctioned.[/QUOTE]
And did it ever occur to you that the costs of whatever system would be required to determine if someone is fit to work at a certain time will outweigh whatever profit you would make from forcing people to work for their benefits?
You're going to have to hire a professional to determine if someone is actually able to work. This will only become more complicated and expensive if the person's condition is unstable.
[QUOTE=Boxbot219;39198935]And did it ever occur to you that the costs of whatever system would be required to determine if someone is fit to work at a certain time will outweigh whatever profit you would make from forcing people to work for their benefits?
You're going to have to hire a professional to determine if someone is actually able to work. This will only become more costly and expensive if the person's condition is unstable.[/QUOTE]
Also that
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