The Most Intense Police Dash-Cam FireFight Ever. - General

[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;51299721]this is why we should just arm police helicopters with a 30mm or something[/QUOTE] Expensive and impractical. These types of events don't happen often.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51299667]Its nice you did the math but literally every account of anyone who has been shot while wearing a bullet proof vest goes against what you said. Any amount of google image searching will show that being hit woth a vest on will cause bruising and sometimes cracked ribs. You can go on youtube if you like and look at videos of vest testing with guys wearing vests. I could post albums of bruises caused by bulletproof vests but Ill let you do the research yourself.[/QUOTE] You are confusing things here. Bruising has nothing to do with being thrown around, or 'put on your ass' The reason that it does damage is because of the short duration of the impulse. It's a large amount of force transferred relative to time, but the time is incredibly short, so the total force is still very small. You do not under any realistic circumstances get 'put on your ass' by the initial impact of a bullet. If you go down, it's because of secondary effects, like pain. The force, however damaging, does not throw you around. The only way for a bullet to have enough concussive power to knock you around is if the gun literally kicks just as hard, except even worse because of losses on the bullet's energy during flight due to friction.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51299369]Nope. Still wrong. Do the math. Your typical handgun bullet has substantially less force than a 1kg weight being dropped a couple centimeters. Larger caliber rifles are on par with dropping it 10-15 cm. It's the fine point and short duration of the impact (due to velocity) that let them penetrate. Concussively speaking, a strong punch delivers orders of magnitude more energy. It's just dissipated over a larger area, and over a [i]much[/i] longer period of time. See the video I posted earlier where a trauma surgeon says the exact same thing, and tells you about the causes of death. Force comes in different forms. This is exactly the reason why NFL players aren't constantly breaking bones, but have enormous problems with soft tissue damage, and wind up with cream cheese instead of a brain.[/QUOTE] [media]https://youtu.be/bQi7iknSKy0[/media] This soldier was hit with a single rifle round to the chest and he was knocked over. Don't worry, he survived, but with massive bruising on his chest. You're underestimating how much force a rifle has. Most people can't punch as hard as a rifle hits. It's like getting hit in the chest with a 20lb sledgehammer. Factor that with shock and raw velocity, you get a massive jolt that will disrupt their sense of balance and give them a punch to send them going backwards. There's more than just raw force at play here.

[QUOTE=Binladen34;51296981]Not even, if you've got armor, your ass will get knocked down, and you're still fire effective.[/QUOTE] The amount of area that most body armor covers is actually a quite small area still leaving a lot areas open that if hit can easily be a kill shot. So even if I have armor, which may have been only pistol caliber rated so pretty ineffective against rifle or even large handgun calibers. So no I don't see the point in putting officers at more risk just because they have body armor it doesn't make them Iron man it just gives them a little more protection not invulnerability.

[QUOTE=zombini;51299967][media]https://youtu.be/bQi7iknSKy0[/media] This soldier was hit with a single rifle round to the chest and he was knocked over. Don't worry, he survived, but with massive bruising on his chest. You're underestimating how much force a rifle has. Most people can't punch as hard as a rifle hits. It's like getting hit in the chest with a 20lb sledgehammer. Factor that with shock and raw velocity, you get a massive jolt that will disrupt their sense of balance and give them a punch to send them going backwards. There's more than just raw force at play here.[/QUOTE] wearing body armor transfers the full force of the bullet to the chest whereas without body armor the bullet could potentially tear right through, transferring little of the kinetic energy to the body.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51300377]wearing body armor transfers the full force of the bullet to the chest whereas without body armor the bullet could potentially tear right through, transferring little of the kinetic energy to the body.[/QUOTE] In that case, it doesn't matter as you'd likely have 5-10 seconds of usable consciousness left before you slump over like a sack of rotten potatoes and drift off into eternal oblivion. Or spend the next 5 minutes in agony on the pavement, drowning in your own blood. My point is that rifles have the energy to knock people over. It's not gonna throw someone out a window or through a wall, but it can knock you over.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51297661]This isn't Hollywood. Bullets don't throw you into walls and off of buildings. The net energy of a bullet impact is very small. A crossbow with a relatively heavy pull has more kinetic energy than small caliber rifles, and totally trounces most handguns. The penetrating power comes from the speed. The impulse of the impact is delivered over an extremely short period of time. If you've got armor, and get hit in it, yes, you can get some bruising, and larger caliber rounds might actually break some ribs or something, but it isn't enough to pick you up and throw you around.[/QUOTE] Ok dude, I'd like to see you try and stand after being shot while wearing a vest.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51299935]You are confusing things here. Bruising has nothing to do with being thrown around, or 'put on your ass' The reason that it does damage is because of the short duration of the impulse. It's a large amount of force transferred relative to time, but the time is incredibly short, so the total force is still very small. You do not under any realistic circumstances get 'put on your ass' by the initial impact of a bullet. If you go down, it's because of secondary effects, like pain. The force, however damaging, does not throw you around. The only way for a bullet to have enough concussive power to knock you around is if the gun literally kicks just as hard, except even worse because of losses on the bullet's energy during flight due to friction.[/QUOTE] Now youre just arguing semantics. Like I said in my original post, the force isnt enough to throw you across the room but its enough to out you on your ass, ie: because you just got fucking shot and it felt like a major league baseball player just hit you with a baseball bat.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;51299935]You are confusing things here. Bruising has nothing to do with being thrown around, or 'put on your ass' The reason that it does damage is because of the short duration of the impulse. It's a large amount of force transferred relative to time, but the time is incredibly short, so the total force is still very small. You do not under any realistic circumstances get 'put on your ass' by the initial impact of a bullet. If you go down, it's because of secondary effects, like pain. The force, however damaging, does not throw you around. [b]The only way for a bullet to have enough concussive power to knock you around is if the gun literally kicks just as hard[/b], except even worse because of losses on the bullet's energy during flight due to friction.[/QUOTE] You clearly don't know how guns work. The energy transferred to the bullet when the round goes off is not equal to the energy transferred to your shoulder. If you are indeed doing any calculations to prove your point then you need to consider the thermodynamics and fluid mechanics of firearms in addition to the kinematics of a fired bullet. My father is an avid hunter so naturally I've been in the woods with him a lot. During my time hunting I managed to kill two deer and both of them immediately fell down after they were shot and then got up as fast as possible and ran. The first one weighed about 150lbs and was killed with a .257 Roberts. The second one was 165lbs and I shot it with a 30-06.

The reason you drop after being shot with an intermediate cartridge or even full sized rifle cartride is not because you get "knocked down", its because getting shot is in most cases pretty surprising and catches you offguard. There have been several recorded incidents of people getting shot several times in their plate carrier(body armor) plates and not noticing before after the firefight. In this video you have a man getting shot by a 7.62x51 full sized rifle bullet while standing on a single foot and not falling over You can see this at 1:46 [video=youtube;aaS_2l8nGdg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg&t=1m46s[/video] [editline]3rd November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=OBOESHOES;51301347] [b]You clearly don't know how guns work. The energy transferred to the bullet when the round goes off is not equal to the energy transferred to your shoulder.[/b] If you are indeed doing any calculations to prove your point then you need to consider the thermodynamics and fluid mechanics of firearms in addition to the kinematics of a fired bullet. My father is an avid hunter so naturally I've been in the woods with him a lot. During my time hunting I managed to kill two deer and both of them immediately fell down after they were shot and then got up as fast as possible and ran. The first one weighed about 150lbs and was killed with a .257 Roberts. The second one was 165lbs and I shot it with a 30-06.[/QUOTE] This is so wrong it hurts, the energy transferred to the bullet is directly equal to the energy transfered to your shoulder, the difference is that the recoil you feel is slower and spread out over a large surface area of the buttstock contacting your shoulder while the bullet is a small metal object hitting you at high speeds instantly transferring a lot of its energy. The reason people and animals collapse/fall down after getting shot sometimes is not because the bullet's energy knocks them down, its because having a small metal object penetrating your body at speeds measuring several hundred km/h is a huge shock to the nervous system. I also really enjoyed how you tried to spout of some fancy sounding jargon of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics to support your inaccurate statements. [b]I'd like to refer you to newtons third law : "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body"[/b]

[QUOTE=moffe;51301594]The reason you drop after being shot with an intermediate cartridge or even full sized rifle cartride is not because you get "knocked down", its because getting shot is in most cases pretty surprising and catches you offguard. There have been several recorded incidents of people getting shot several times in their plate carrier(body armor) plates and not noticing before after the firefight. In this video you have a man getting shot by a 7.62x51 full sized rifle bullet while standing on a single foot [video]https://youtu.be/aaS_2l8nGdg?t=106[/video] [editline]3rd November 2016[/editline] This is so wrong it hurts, the energy transferred to the bullet is directly equal to the energy transfered to your shoulder, the difference is that the recoil you feel is slower and spread out over a large surface area of the buttstock contacting your shoulder while the bullet is a small metal object hitting you at high speeds instantly transferring a lot of its energy. The reason people and animals collapse/fall down after getting shot sometimes is not because the bullet's energy knocks them down, its because having a small metal object penetrating your body at speeds measuring several hundred km/h is a huge shock to the nervous system.[/QUOTE] Getting shot while wearing police kevlar without plates and getting shot while military grade plates is a lot different. The plates are obviously completely solid while kevlar is just a cloth material. And the energy you get on the receiving end of a bullet is a lot more than the person gets when firing. THe weight of a firearm along with its action dampens most of the recoil. Comparing a guy shooting and a guy getting shot is like comparing a deer getting hit by a semi to the guy driving the semi. Theyre obviously not going to feel the same force. [editline]3rd November 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=moffe;51301594] [b]I'd like to refer you to newtons third law : "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body"[/b][/QUOTE] This is true, but those forces are dampened by the weight of the gun, the action of the gun absorbing the recoil, and several other factors. The person shooting is not being subjected to the same amount of forces as the guy being shot. Its the gun that gets subjected to the full brunt of the energies in question, not the person firing.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51301663]Getting shot while wearing police kevlar without plates and getting shot while military grade plates is a lot different. The plates are obviously completely solid while kevlar is just a cloth material. And the energy you get on the receiving end of a bullet is a lot more than the person gets when firing. THe weight of a firearm along with its action dampens most of the recoil. Comparing a guy shooting and a guy getting shot is like comparing a deer getting hit by a semi to the guy driving the semi. Theyre obviously not going to feel the same force.[/QUOTE] The amount of energy the target and the shooter recieves is almost exactly the same if you ignore the miniscule reduction by air resistance, the damage a small sharp metal projectile can do is a lot more devastasting than a large metal object pushing at you much more slowly with the contact area being a large rubber buttplate The truck is subject to the same force as the deer, that is literally how newtons third law works. That is a false equivalence though as the truck is a moving object hitting a deer, if you attached the man to the front of the semi and the deer hits him he would be subject to the same force as the deer. [quote]This is true, but those forces are dampened by the weight of the gun, the action of the gun absorbing the recoil, and several other factors. The person shooting is not being subjected to the same amount of forces as the guy being shot. Its the gun that gets subjected to the full brunt of the energies in question, not the person firing.[/QUOTE] As stated above the force is exactly the, the rifle hits your shoulder a lot slower than the bullet does because it has a much larger mass, if a rifle was to have the same effect on the shooter it would need to fire something with as high a mass as the rifle itself. The point I am making is that the force is the same, the recoil is not a bullet speeding at 700 km/h it is a much slower large metal object accelerating much slower and gradually losing force as it impacts your shoulder. And where do you think the full brunt of energy travels to from the gun if not into the person holding it? does the energy simply dissapear and vanish into thin air?

[QUOTE=moffe;51301695]The amount of energy the target and the shooter recieves is almost exactly the same if you ignore the miniscule reduction by air resistance, the damage a small sharp metal projectile can do is a lot more devastasting than a large metal object pushing at you much more slowly with the contact area being a large rubber buttplate As stated above the force is exactly the, the rifle hits your shoulder a lot slower than the bullet does because it has a much larger mass, if a rifle was to have the same effect on the shooter it would need to fire something with as high a mass as the rifle itself. The point I am making is that the force is the same, the recoil is not a bullet speeding at 700 km/h it is a much slower large metal object accelerating much slower and gradually losing force as it impacts your shoulder.[/QUOTE] Right, thats my point. The force you [i]feel[/i] is much different for each person involved. One guy is getting the full brunt of a bullet hitting him and the other guy feels a bump or tap on his shoulder. Any way you look at it theyre not the same.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51301742]Right, thats my point. The force you [i]feel[/i] is much different for each person involved. One guy is getting the full brunt of a bullet hitting him and the other guy feels a bump or tap on his shoulder. Any way you look at it theyre not the same.[/QUOTE] oh I absolutely agree the forces [b]percieved[/b] are much different but that's simply because the rifle is a much larger object and accerates slower, the actual forces involved are very much the same and if the person with the rifle is not knocked over the person shot wont be either.

[QUOTE=moffe;51301765]oh I absolutely agree the forces [b]percieved[/b] are much different but that's simply because the rifle is a much larger object and accerates slower, the actual forces involved are very much the same and if the person with the rifle is not knocked over the person shot wont be either.[/QUOTE] As I said previously, the "knocking over" part is due to the pain and shock of being shot by a fucking gun. And the perceived force is obviously what matters. THats why being shot with kevlar on cracks ribs and causes massive bruises while the guy shooting doesnt receive anything like that.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;51301875]As I said previously, the "knocking over" part is due to the pain and shock of being shot by a fucking gun. And the perceived force is obviously what matters. THats why being shot with kevlar on cracks ribs and causes massive bruises while the guy shooting doesnt receive anything like that.[/QUOTE] well I'm glad we came to an agreement, I might have been a bit overzealous in correcting you when we were only really arguing semantics while reaching the a similar conclusion. The urban myths perpetuated about guns like a .50 caliber bullet passing closely by your arm could kill you or that the actual force of a bullet impact would push someone wearing hard plates over really grinds my gears, I might have gotten a little triggered.

[QUOTE=moffe;51302169]well I'm glad we came to an agreement, I might have been a bit overzealous in correcting you when we were only really arguing semantics while reaching the a similar conclusion. The urban myths perpetuated about guns like a .50 caliber bullet passing closely by your arm could kill you or that the actual force of a bullet impact would push someone wearing hard plates over really grinds my gears, I might have gotten a little triggered.[/QUOTE] Same here, and I also dislike the myths surrounding guns in general. GIves guns a bad name and perpetuates unsafe practices. And I should have been more specific in my reasoning as well.

[QUOTE=moffe;51301594] I also really enjoyed how you tried to spout of some fancy sounding jargon of thermodynamics and fluid mechanics to support your inaccurate statements. [b]I'd like to refer you to newtons third law : "When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body"[/b][/QUOTE] "Fancy sounding jargon" :v:. So many people in this thread keep interchanging force, momentum, and energy like they mean the same thing. Newton's third law talks about forces(mass times acceleration) and has nothing to do with momentum(mass times velocity) which is discussed in Newton's 2nd law and in the law of Conservation of Momentum. Someone in this thread sort of had the right idea when they mentioned impulse, but the initial explosion of the cartridge isn't the only source of momentum because in addition to the explosion there is also a lot of gas, heat and pressure. Thermodynamics talks about the relationship of kinetic energy, potential energy, and heat energy in a system which all come into play when a gun is fired. You would be surprised how much of the energy from a gun going off is actually heat energy being transferred to the air inside the barrel, the barrel itself, and the bullet. When the heat energy is transferred to the gas in the gun fluid mechanics comes into play. Fluid mechanics deals with all things fluid or gaseous and can be used to analyze how a gas will behave in a situation where it is hot and under pressure while inside a tube that is blocked by an object(i.e. the gas inside of a gun when it goes off). More specifically how the heat and pressure translate to kinetic energy in the bullet and the gun as the bullet travels down the barrel and after it exits the muzzle. I could go into a lot more detail, but I don't feel like giving a whole lecture.