[QUOTE=Skelmech;40931602]didn't really watch past "so men making games for men don't portray women right. no duh?" or whatever it was he said tbh. incredibly bad opening.
since when did game devs stop making games for gamers and instead for men?[/QUOTE]
I'll never understand why so many gamers are so adamant in making video games some boys club
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931633]Dr. Gestapo just stop before you get yourself hurt somehow.
I know this is the internet but you sound stupid enough to actually managing that.[/QUOTE]
how nice of you to join this discussion with such valuable input
[QUOTE=The Janitor;40931429]Buddy, you're not from around here are you? This is earth.
I don't have someone encouraging me to go out and make a difference in the world and most people who do make one, do it on their own. There are few people in this world who will get hand held their whole lives because it's easier for the hand holder to just do the job.[/QUOTE]
Uh job incentives in certain industries and encouragement to take up a certain type of employment to specific cultural groups are both policies taken by many governments on earth.
Maddox is usually good (and funny) with these but what we really need is higher quality writing independent from whether the author is female or male- most sexism stems from stereotypes about gender roles and decent characters aren't based on stereotypes. A curb on misogyny in the consumer base of video games will also significantly reduce the power of the argument that because the target demographic is male it's okay to make sexist characters and generally change the climate of sexism and marketing of some of the game industry. Many females won't go into the gaming industry because they see it as misogynist and critics might not because they themselves feel that they can't develop games. But TBH there's plenty of the gaming industry that ISN'T sexist but the high % of males in gaming and the industry is just furthered by gender-role stereotypes, impeding progress. There's plenty of games which are hardly sexist at all- NOT catering to stereotyped female likes and dislikes is NOT sexist. What games need is equal representation of genders.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40931627]yes it is up to the disenfranchised and the minorities to stop being oppressed, not on us, the majority to stop oppressing[/QUOTE]
In the case of the video game industry well the one way to fix it is actually to step the fuck up and do something, well yeah, it is.
Don't expect writers who have been writing men centered stuff (that's often also very shit stuff) for several dozen years to suddenly switch around and write a woman centered thing and do it right in the blink of an eye. Even if they do follow your demands, they will suck at what they do because this ain't what they are used to do.
Oh by the way as far as I can remember history's "oppressed minorities" have always stood up by themselves and waiting for the oppressor to do something usually doesn't work. See progressivism and radicalism in racial discrimination in the US throughout their history.
[editline]7th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;40931651]how nice of you to join this discussion with such valuable input[/QUOTE]
I was working on a better post to someone that's actually not just spitting shit.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931633]Dr. Gestapo just stop before you get yourself hurt somehow.
I know this is the internet but you sound stupid enough to actually managing that.[/QUOTE]
Oh fuck a homophobic weaboo thinks I'm dumb, I better delete my account.
I know you're not one for empathy and all that jazz but please tell me what is it about me that's so unreasonable?
You lot always complain about getting attacked for your opinions but so far I've seen a whole lot of ad hominem and not that many counter-arguments.
[editline]lmfao[/editline]
also you guys should know you're defending a huge mysoginyst who literally thinks straight people are discriminated against
[url]http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=i_hate_sasha[/url]
[url]http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=gay[/url]
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;40931635]I'll never understand why so many gamers are so adamant in making video games some boys club[/QUOTE]
Sensible people don't do that. Issue is there isn't that much sensible people on the internet especially when you consider the most vocal part of it is composed of extremely socially awkward teens who are taking their accumulated frustration with them on the internet and join groups of other people with accumulated frustration. And since they play video games a lot, they often get in the same group and when a girl actually mentions she's a girl a lot of them either go rabid or start being as much of a bunch of cunts as they can be.
Sensible people won't give a shit about who plays what game. I know I don't give a fuck.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931680]Oh fuck a homophobic weaboo thinks I'm dumb, I better delete my account.
I know you're not one for empathy and all that jazz but please tell me what is it about me that's so unreasonable?
You lot always complain about getting attacked for your opinions but so far I've seen a whole lot of ad hominem and not that many counter-arguments.
[editline]lmfao[/editline]
also you guys should know you're defending a huge mysoginyst who literally thinks straight people are discriminated against
[url]http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=i_hate_sasha[/url]
[url]http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=gay[/url][/QUOTE]
actually that article about straight people being discriminated against is extremely pro-gay satire. maddox is a pretty smart guy really but he's a complete dickhead, kind of like how he is arguing that game makers appeal to males by being sexist, he appeals to wankers by being a wanker
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931663]In the case of the video game industry well the one way to fix it is actually to step the fuck up and do something, well yeah, it is.[/QUOTE]
that's not exactly easy
[QUOTE]Don't expect writers who have been writing men centered stuff (that's often also very shit stuff) for several dozen years to suddenly switch around and write a woman centered thing and do it right in the blink of an eye. Even if they do follow your demands, they will suck at what they do because this ain't what they are used to do.[/QUOTE]
Nobody thinks you can just flip some switch and everything is fixed. People just want to highlight issues and create discussion so the industry can move forward in these areas over time.
[QUOTE]Oh by the way as far as I can remember history's "oppressed minorities" have always stood up by themselves and waiting for the oppressor to do something usually doesn't work. See progressivism and radicalism in racial discrimination in the US throughout their history.[/QUOTE]
Okay?
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931680]
also you guys should know you're defending a huge mysoginyst who literally thinks straight people are discriminated against
[URL]http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=i_hate_sasha[/URL]
[URL]http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=gay[/URL][/QUOTE]
You don't know much about the guy do you...
The whole Maddox persona is facetious.
he is still a misogynistic dickbag though
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931680][url]http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=gay[/url][/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure this is satire
He made a book grading art made by toddlers, claiming he was way better than them and they were retarded. Do you think he was serious about that?
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931680]Oh fuck a homophobic weaboo thinks I'm dumb, I better delete my account.[/quote]
You know jack shit about me. You don't know if I like anime, and you don't know if I'm homophobic or not.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931680]I know you're not one for empathy and all that jazz but please tell me what is it about me that's so unreasonable?[/quote]
You've been going on spitting out the word stereotype about a guy who makes a fair point, without actually going against the fair point (at least not without just saying "that's stereotypical")
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931680]You lot always complain about getting attacked for your opinions but so far I've seen a whole lot of ad hominem and not that many counter-arguments.[/quote]
What the fuck is a ad hominem, why should I care, and how can you speak of counter arguments when you haven't even produced a single solid argument yet ? And I don't complain for shit about getting attacked for my opinions. If anything, you're the one doing that.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=God's Pimp Hand;40931130]The problem that I find with the guy's argument is that he's pretty much implying that the sexist, objectifying material that some videogame developers put out is what best serves men's interests.
I'm a man. I don't like over-sexualization nor under-representation of women in videogames, and I think there are many other men out there who don't either. To say that guys aren't just content with cheesy and dehumanized female characters but also [I]find appeal[/I] in them is sexist in itself, and I mean that in an anti-male way.[/QUOTE]
The problem is, is that the money says the opposite.
With the way the industry is now, many companies are geared towards selling to a broad market, and apparently the strategies have worked, and the portrayal of women in many games is still like this because of that.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931730]What the fuck is a ad hominem, why should I care[/QUOTE]
for future reference
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem[/url]
[QUOTE=ClarkWasHere;40931742]The problem is, is that the money says the opposite.
With the way the industry is now, many companies are geared towards selling to a broad market, and apparently the strategies have worked, and the portrayal of women in many games is still like this because of that.[/QUOTE]
The portrayal of women in video games is due to writers usually being shit and not caring enough to bother changing their usual tactics up. Considering most games are more about, well, gameplay than story, I can't blame them.
People who think it's the work of some sort of conspiracy from the video game industry to normalize violence against women need to chill the fuck out.
[editline]7th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=bunnyspy1;40931760]for future reference
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem[/url][/QUOTE]
So can't you just say personal attack/avoiding the argument ?
And if that's what ad hominem is, then isn't pointing out an ad hominem and just doing that an ad hominem itself ? God that term sounds dumb.
[QUOTE=ClarkWasHere;40931742]The problem is, is that the money says the opposite.
With the way the industry is now, many companies are geared towards selling to a broad market, and apparently the strategies have worked, and the portrayal of women in many games is still like this because of that.[/QUOTE]
though the reason might be because it makes the most money, i don't consider that an excuse or a justification, and it's one of the reasons video games is suspect as an artistic medium, too many people just trying to make a buck. see i reckon that when someone makes something in an artistic medium, like writes a book, paints a picture, or makes a movie or makes a game, it should be what they want it to be, as soon as material gain enters the picture the art is suspect. i don't mind misogyny in art because art is an expression of the artist, but misogyny for purely financial gain is despicable
oh no Dr. Gestapo has an opinion!
facepunch opinion squad, go get him!
[QUOTE=ClarkWasHere;40931742]The problem is, is that the money says the opposite.
With the way the industry is now, many companies are geared towards selling to a broad market, and apparently the strategies have worked, and the portrayal of women in many games is still like this because of that.[/QUOTE]
But women make up half the population and almost half the current gaming market.
There are a lot of big-selling games that don't have terrible female characters. Sexism isn't what sells games, it's just a side-effect.
I want someone to make a Skyrim mod that give all the male characters out of proportioned genitals and impossibly chiseled abs with sexy walks and guyliner to counter all the sexy female mods.
[QUOTE=Whomobile;40931793]I want someone to make a Skyrim mod that give all the male characters out of proportioned genitals and impossibly chiseled abs with sexy walks and guyliner to counter all the sexy female mods.[/QUOTE]
but that would make me [I]uncomfortable [/I]:(
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40931783]though the reason might be because it makes the most money, i don't consider that an excuse or a justification, and it's one of the reasons video games is suspect as an artistic medium, too many people just trying to make a buck. see i reckon that when someone makes something in an artistic medium, like writes a book, paints a picture, or makes a movie or makes a game, it should be what they want it to be, as soon as material gain enters the picture the art is suspect. i don't mind misogyny in art because art is an expression of the artist, but misogyny for purely financial gain is despicable[/QUOTE]
It's not even misogyny. I somehow doubt every writer in the world just goes "fuck I hate women I'm going to write a story about a damsel in distress to show how much I hate them" every morning before getting on a script. I'm also pretty sure a lot of writers are married and not beating their wives on a regular basis besides making games where a lot of women are getting beaten up.
I mean seriously, Duke Nukem is the most sexist character in the world of videogaming, do you really think the guys who came up with him were sexist too ?
[QUOTE=Furnost;40931193][IMG]http://puu.sh/3a2G3.png[/IMG]
10/10[/QUOTE]
What's even funnier is that black people were the pioneers for civil rights, so it only reinforces Maddox's point.
[QUOTE=Whomobile;40931793]I want someone to make a Skyrim mod that give all the male characters out of proportioned genitals and impossibly chiseled abs with sexy walks and guyliner to counter all the sexy female mods.[/QUOTE]
It actually exists.
Please don't make me link it to you.
There is even a mod for oblivion that gives nude bodies to all males, and also gives redguards a bigger dick than everyone else.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931730]You know jack shit about me. You don't know if I like anime, and you don't know if I'm homophobic or not.
You've been going on spitting out the word stereotype about a guy who makes a fair point, without actually going against the fair point (at least not without just saying "that's stereotypical")
What the fuck is a ad hominem, why should I care, and how can you speak of counter arguments when you haven't even produced a single solid argument yet ? And I don't complain for shit about getting attacked for my opinions. If anything, you're the one doing that.[/QUOTE]
My whole argument I already posted, if you decided to skim through it then that's not my problem. I already said what I needed to say. I haven't attacked anyone thus far, yet you did, calling me stupid because my opinion somehow upset you.
Also, anyone who reads your opinions on gay adoption can see you're homophobic and anyone who can see your profile can tell you like jacking it to animated girls with cat ears. But hey, none of my business.
Sensible people would take your opinion on this topic with a grain of salt.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931808]It's not even misogyny. I somehow doubt every writer in the world just goes "fuck I hate women I'm going to write a story about a damsel in distress to show how much I hate them" every morning before getting on a script. I'm also pretty sure a lot of writers are married and not beating their wives on a regular basis besides making games where a lot of women are getting beaten up.
I mean seriously, Duke Nukem is the most sexist character in the world of videogaming, do you really think the guys who came up with him were sexist too ?[/QUOTE]
misogyny doesn't straight up mean you hate women, most the time misogyny isn't even a conscious act. maybe because you're french so i'm assuming english isn't your first language you'd think that, but it's like people that say 'well, i don't hate gays i just don't think they should be allowed to marry' they may very well not hate gays, but not letting them marry is homophobic
[editline]7th June 2013[/editline]
and duke nukem is meant to be a satire on the whole video game action hero thing
[QUOTE=acpm;40931787]oh no Dr. Gestapo has an opinion!
facepunch opinion squad, go get him![/QUOTE]
of course he has an opinion, but so do the people on the other side of the argument.
I don't agree with either side, but this is just an argument, I don't see any reason to complain about it.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40931860]misogyny doesn't straight up mean you hate women, most the time misogyny isn't even a conscious act. maybe because you're french so i'm assuming english isn't your first language you'd think that, but it's like people that say 'well, i don't hate gays i just don't think they should be allowed to marry' they may very well not hate gays, but not letting them marry is homophobic
[editline]7th June 2013[/editline]
and duke nukem is meant to be a satire on the whole video game action hero thing[/QUOTE]
Bust misogyny [I]literally[/I] means you hate women. That's the etymology of the word.
And misogyny is a word in French too. It just ends with -ie instead of -y.
And not letting gays marry is not homophobic. It's an opinion. If they have a point behind it, it's a constructed opinion, besides not being one you and I agree on. If they don't, it's an opinion with no bases, but it's not "homophobia". You can't just throw that word around, hoping your use of it eventually fits the definition.
BTW a lot of games using the damsel in distress trope are using it as satire/parody/a running gag too. Super Mario does that, Double Dragon Neon does it, etc.
How many times is it gonna take before we realize that the moment sexism is brought up here that it turns into a shit flinging contest?
The same thing has been gone over every argument. You keep all repeating each other and end up getting nowhere.
[QUOTE=acpm;40931787]oh no Dr. Gestapo has an opinion! facepunch opinion squad, go get him![/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=bunnyspy1;40931888]of course he has an opinion, but so do the people on the other side of the argument.
I don't agree with either side, but this is just an argument, I don't see any reason to complain about it.[/QUOTE]
I don't care if people disagree with me, I just would like it if they would actually tell me why they disagree with me instead of telling me how stupid I am.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931898]Bust misogyny [I]literally[/I] means you hate women. That's the etymology of the word.
And misogyny is a word in French too. It just ends with -ie instead of -y.
And not letting gays marry is not homophobic. It's an opinion. If they have a point behind it, it's a constructed opinion, besides not being one you and I agree on. If they don't, it's an opinion with no bases, but it's not "homophobia". You can't just throw that word around, hoping your use of it eventually fits the definition.[/QUOTE]
english isn't greek
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