[QUOTE=Professer Trall;40931903]How many times is it gonna take before we realize that the moment sexism is brought up here that it turns into a shit flinging contest?
The same thing has been gone over every argument. You keep all repeating each other and end up getting nowhere.[/QUOTE]
welcome to arguments on facepunch, or also literally everywhere on the net
[QUOTE=Furnost;40931915]welcome to arguments on facepunch, or also literally everywhere on the net[/QUOTE]
Not even /pol/ on 4chan does this.
And they do A LOT of stupid shit.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931898]Bust misogyny [I]literally[/I] means you hate women. That's the etymology of the word.
And misogyny is a word in French too. It just ends with -ie instead of -y.
And not letting gays marry is not homophobic. It's an opinion. If they have a point behind it, it's a constructed opinion, besides not being one you and I agree on. If they don't, it's an opinion with no bases, but it's not "homophobia". You can't just throw that word around, hoping your use of it eventually fits the definition.
BTW a lot of games using the damsel in distress trope are using it as satire/parody/a running gag too. Super Mario does that, Double Dragon Neon does it, etc.[/QUOTE]
and again, difference between english and french, homophobia LITERALLY means fear of gays, but the people that hate gays aren't actually scared of them (generally). and lets not get into this argument lol but it's a homophobic opinion, just being an opinion doesn't disqualify it from that.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931911]I don't care if people disagree with me, I just would like it if they would actually tell me why they disagree with me instead of telling me how stupid I am.[/QUOTE]
I dunno what you were going to expect
this thread was going to spark a debate one way or another, and I think everyone knew this is exactly how it would go.
both sides are shitting on the other
[QUOTE=Ownederd;40931913]english isn't greek[/QUOTE]
Neither is french, yet we kept that definition so somehow I doubt you decided to suddenly change it.
Stop twisting language so you can use whatever word for whatever thing. Etymology exists for a reason and so do dictionaries.
[QUOTE=Professer Trall;40931923]Not even /pol/ on 4chan does this.
And they do A LOT of stupid shit.[/QUOTE]
yeah true that, on 4chan they post gore and child porn
To summarize this video briefly.
"Men are not women, thus oversexualizing characters is the ~natural~ thing to do, shut your traps"
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931937]Neither is french, yet we kept that definition so somehow I doubt you decided to suddenly change it.
Stop twisting language so you can use whatever word for whatever thing. Etymology exists for a reason and so do dictionaries.[/QUOTE]
you don't understand english as much as i or any other native english speaker. and if you think every word is always used literally you never will
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40931940]yeah true that, on 4chan they post gore and child porn[/QUOTE]
no they don't
not often at least, and it's swiftly deleted
have you ever visited 4chan, or gone to a board other than /b/?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931937]Neither is french, yet we kept that definition so somehow I doubt you decided to suddenly change it.
Stop twisting language so you can use whatever word for whatever thing. Etymology exists for a reason and so do dictionaries.[/QUOTE]
how about you stop arguing semantics
there's a different between having a fear or having an hate of something
[QUOTE=Whomobile;40931793]I want someone to make a Skyrim mod that give all the male characters out of proportioned genitals and impossibly chiseled abs with sexy walks and guyliner to counter all the sexy female mods.[/QUOTE]
those already exist somewhere
edit:
found some nsfw
[URL]http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/36513//?[/URL]
[URL]http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/7713/?[/URL]
Remember when video games were about video games?
[QUOTE=Bletotum;40931943]To summarize this video briefly.
"Men are not women, thus oversexualizing characters is the ~natural~ thing to do, shut your traps"[/QUOTE]
That's not what he said at all. Pay attention next time.
[QUOTE=MisterMooth;40931570]exactly
but to say men can't write decent female characters is kind of insulting don't you think
they're not a different species. it's not exactly difficult to just treat them like the humans they are
if all your female characters are overly weak and sexualised you can't exactly blame that on mere ignorance[/QUOTE]
Yeah it is insulting but I never intended it to come across like that though. Maybe the asshole in me underestimates the gaming industry to some degree, but it has been proven that female characters can be written well. So I'll chew on my own words there.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931584]Secondly, the game development industry is rampant with sexism. Why would women want to work in an environment that is hostile to them?
Like I've said before, we need to fix those things in order to have a more equal gaming industry. Women won't just "start making games" to end sexism unless we show that we are willing compromise as well.[/QUOTE]
I can't speak on the industry as I have little to no clue about how it works internally but I'll agree; it's silly to say 'get out there and make a game' willy-nilly, but I think the prevalence of more and more female devs is a good sign nonetheless.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931937]
Stop twisting language so you can use whatever word for whatever thing.[/QUOTE]
except that's literally what language does? words aren't and never will be set in stone. speak to a native english speaker a thousand years ago and they'll have no idea what you're saying, for the most part. "homophobia" taken literally makes no sense, but it's a good thing language isn't made to be used literally
[QUOTE=NoaJM;40932018]
I can't speak on the industry as I have little to no clue about how it works internally but I'll agree; it's silly to say 'get out there and make a game' willy-nilly, but I think the prevalence of more and more female devs is a good sign nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
Watch this, it's a pretty insightful view on how women are seen in the gaming industry.
[video=youtube;Umj2dnACo64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umj2dnACo64[/video]
It isn't just some bullshit feminists made up to ruin games, it's an actual problem that needs a solution.
[QUOTE=Dori;40932028]except that's literally what language does? words aren't and never will be set in stone. speak to a native english speaker a thousand years ago and they'll have no idea what you're saying, for the most part. "homophobia" taken literally makes no sense, but it's a good thing language isn't made to be used literally[/QUOTE]
I was talking about Misogyny because that's what gestapo over here argued didn't mean hatred of women.
And I know words change meanings through time, but come on, it doesn't change day to day and it doesn't change meaning from one guy to another. Dictionaries are being published on a very regular basis and if a recent dictionary gives a certain definition of a word, you have to stick to that definition.
Or else you're not even talking the same language, if you start making up definitions of word you're actually just forging a new dialect as you speak.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40930890]Holy shit can you get more stereotypical?
This video's premise is ridiculous. Not only does it propose that men inherently suck at writing female characters (because apparently it's impossible for men to relate to women), but he also equates video games as the "male counterpart" to stuff like women's magazines (even though we have men's magazines too?). The "Shut up and fix the problem yourself" argument is also incredibly asinine. Women can't just start making video games to "fix" the way they're portrayed because said shitty portrayal alienates women from the gaming industry/community, making them turn away from such career options. [/quote]
Maddox neither stated that it was impossible for men to relate to women, nor did he state that men (in general) "inherently suck at writing female characters". He stated that men "don't identify with being female". Which basically means that "men" haven't lived their whole lives as "female" and thus can't accurately feel some of the societal constructs or beliefs that have organically/subconsciously been embedded in a stereotypical female. The same could be said about female->male, although to a lesser extent due to the traditionally male-oriented media thus far that typically is told and presented from the point of view of a man. He even shows a few examples where men/women [i]have[/i] more or less portrayed the opposite gender relatively accurately throughout the video.
It's not particularly hard to write a generic human abstracted away from genders, but [i]because[/i] most of this is a work of [i]fantasy[/i], exaggerations and stereotypes are often used to make it more interesting than real life.
As far as magazines go, you even stated yourself that they have a pretty varied demographic; both in writers, and targets.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;40931316]
Yet many more magazines are run by a majority of men, what's your point?
[/QUOTE]
Videogames are still a relatively new medium compared to written works, and as such hasn't had much time to mature. Now i'm not well versed into the actual history of magazines/newspapers, and because I don't really give enough of a fuck to actually research it, I can only assume that it was a pretty male-dominated medium up until the early/mid 20th century or so. That would give newspapers well over 200 years until the demographics actually started being oriented more towards neutrality (or even male/female specific). Then at some point some women (or men) had a great idea of targeting it to a specific demographic; in this case women.
You could even compare videogames directly to books. Are there some books where a specific character is completely unrealistic/complete-fantasy stereotype based on that gender? Yea, it's actually pretty common. But there's also a lot of books where all (or nearly all) of the characters are actually believable. But that is because there's a lot of women&men writing for both women&men.
[quote]That said, I completely agree with the last part, we do need more women working in the videogame industry, but in order to have that happen, we need to [B]encourage[/B] them to do so, and right now the industry has been doing a shit job at it.[/QUOTE]
Why do we need to explicitly encourage women to join the industry? Just say, "hey here's a thing you can make however you want to and see anything in your imagination come to life... have at it", and i'm pretty sure anybody (regardless of gender) would say "hell yea sign me up". If they see a videogame where the characters are portrayed wrong and want to make sure the developers accurately portray women, they can go out and share their input with developers, or make a game themselves (or ignore it and move on with their life). [i]and that's what a lot of women are doing[/i], and is basically what maddox is saying in his video.
Bringing back the book comparison, let's talk about Twilight for a moment. The males in that book are pretty stereotyped and are more or less a fantasy, but it's written by a woman for women, so it's not that big of a deal in my eyes because i'm a male and I don't typically read books targeted at females. If you don't like reading books with stereotyped males, you can either write to the author and tell them that they're a terrible writer and offer suggestions on how to write a more believable male character, or write a book of your own that accurately portrays a believable male character. It's not as if having too many books in the world is a bad thing; in fact it's pretty great! Why can't we have a ton of videogames all catering to every demographic and many catering to none in particular? That would be a nice world, where we can play tons of terrible fanservice porn games then go and play a sappy romance game, and end off the gaming session with some obscure psychedelic mindfuck game.
[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40931077]If Facepunch has taught me anything, trying to have an open minded conversation with someone who's willing to write an essay after skimming through parts of a video will lead to nothing but you aggressively enforcing your opinion and I don't have the 4 hours necessary to explain every detail to you.[/QUOTE]
"i disagree with you but i can't be bothered to actually say why because that would require i actually know what I'm talking about" also you assume he skimmed the video which he clearly did not if you read his post
How are you guys not getting this. He's saying that if women want something done, they need to stand up and seek a more active role. It's how the liberation of India from the British Raj was achieved, Civil rights in America, you name it. It happened by people standing up, not just asking the people in charge to do something.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40931633]Dr. Gestapo just stop before you get yourself hurt somehow.
I know this is the internet but you sound stupid enough to actually managing that.[/QUOTE]
how are posts like this allowed to skate by?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932052]
And I know words change meanings through time, but come on, it doesn't change day to day and it doesn't change meaning from one guy to another.[/QUOTE]
the word "misogyny" has been used as it is today for hundreds of years, and yes language does change from person to person, because dialects are a thing
[editline]6th June 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932052]Dictionaries are being published on a very regular basis and if a recent dictionary gives a certain definition of a word, you have to stick to that definition.
[/QUOTE]
absolutely not. words are context-sensitive and language is not prescriptive. all dictionaries do is compile common words and describes how they're commonly used
[QUOTE=Dori;40932089]the word "misogyny" has been used as it is today for hundreds of years, and yes language does change from person to person, because dialects are a thing
[editline]6th June 2013[/editline]
absolutely not. words are context-sensitive and language is not prescriptive. all dictionaries do is compile common words and describes how they're commonly used[/QUOTE]
And they give several uses for each words. If misogyny is used commonly to mention everything does against a woman, then it would be mentioned as such in the dictionary at this point. If it's not in here, you're very likely bullshitting everyone by using a word in a way that arranges you.
And what kind of dialect uses misogyny in such a convenient, convoluted meaning ? The "feminists-on-facepunch-arguing-about-video-games" dialect ?
[QUOTE=Professer Trall;40931903]How many times is it gonna take before we realize that the moment sexism is brought up here that it turns into a shit flinging contest?[/QUOTE]
as many times as it takes until the other side gets it -both sides
(note i am fully biased to the feminist side, but its true regardless.)
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932118]And they give several uses for each words. If misogyny is used commonly to mention everything does against a woman, then it would be mentioned as such in the dictionary at this point. If it's not in here, you're very likely bullshitting everyone by using a word in a way that arranges you.[/QUOTE]
again, language is not prescriptive and dictionaries are not an authority on language
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;40931520]Are we taking everything that comes out of Maddox's mouth as balls to the wall serious now?
This guy has been around since last millennium and we are just now getting angry over what he says?[/QUOTE]
maddox has and always will be a silly character that this dude plays
why does nobody understand this
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;40932085]How are you guys not getting this. He's saying that if women want something done, they need to stand up and seek a more active role. It's how the liberation of India from the British Raj was achieved, Civil rights in America, you name it. It happened by people standing up, not just asking the people in charge to do something.[/QUOTE]
And plenty of women are stepping up and going into the gaming industry. This alone will not solve the problem though. The industry like I said before is not producing for these women; These women can write all the good characters they want but the industry will keep developing for the opinion at large. These people talking about sexism are trying to change the public opinion rather than that of the industry. Once the public opinion at large reflects something along the lines of "I want strong a female characters that does not abide by tropes and gender roles." rather than "It's a video game who cares" changes WILL start being made. This is action through words, these complaints and qualms are simply a catalyst through which people will start taking action. Saying "Stop complaining and fix it yourself" is squelching half the solution.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;40932085]How are you guys not getting this. He's saying that if women want something done, they need to stand up and seek a more active role. It's how the liberation of India from the British Raj was achieved, Civil rights in America, you name it. It happened by people standing up, not just asking the people in charge to do something.[/QUOTE]
you're comparing a minority wanting to take part in the creation of one form of media to a minority being brutally oppressed by a dictator. no one is being killed here. not only that, but when women DO stand up, they just get shit on: see the thread with that video of a team of all female LoL gamers. Not only do they have to take a stand, but they have to do it in a way that pleases those who they are standing up against? it's all no win scenario bullshit, "men will treat you like shit and if you try to take a stand we'll tell you to shut up and to just play the game"
[QUOTE=Dori;40932129]again, language is not prescriptive and dictionaries are not an authority on language[/QUOTE]
They represent a consensus on language and if you are going to speak the same language as other people you should follow that consensus.
Same reason phonetics exist.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932148]They represent a consensus on language and if you are going to speak the same language as other people you should follow that consensus.[/QUOTE]
do you want to ban slang while you're at it?
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