Maddox - Sexism in Video Games - General

Shouldn't have even replied. Caused a war just like I mentioned. The fact remains that if you continue to approach an argument with aggression and hyperbole, it's gonna end up nowhere. At least respect that.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;40932157]do you want to ban slang while you're at it?[/QUOTE] Even slang has a consensus on what means what, come on. And there are dictionaries for slang.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932148]They represent a consensus on language and if you are going to speak the same language as other people you should follow that consensus. [/QUOTE] ok dude, what it comes down to is that 99% of native english speakers will understand what you mean when you talk about misogyny or homophobia. whether or not "the" dictionary reflects that doesn't matter in any way

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932118]And they give several uses for each words. If misogyny is used commonly to mention everything does against a woman, then it would be mentioned as such in the dictionary at this point. If it's not in here, you're very likely bullshitting everyone by using a word in a way that arranges you. And what kind of dialect uses misogyny in such a convenient, convoluted meaning ? The "feminists-on-facepunch-arguing-about-video-games" dialect ?[/QUOTE] um it's a pretty widespread usage of the word dude not that dictionary definitions matter, but the main australian dictionary actually defines it this way

[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40932160]Shouldn't have even replied. Caused a war just like I mentioned. The fact remains that if you continue to approach an argument with aggression and hyperbole, it's gonna end up nowhere. At least respect that.[/QUOTE] being accusatory and saying "lol what epic fun" is also equally annoying and disrespectful

[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40932160]Shouldn't have even replied. Caused a war just like I mentioned. The fact remains that if you continue to approach an argument with aggression and hyperbole, it's gonna end up nowhere. At least respect that.[/QUOTE] listen to yourself. YOU are the one using hyperbole, YOU are the one not reading or bothering to actually reply to posts, YOU are the one making baseless assumptions about the actions of others in your post when it is clear you are wrong if you take the fucking effort to read what you are responding to. [editline]6th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932163]Even slang has a consensus on what means what, come on. And there are dictionaries for slang.[/QUOTE] yeah, and those slang dictionaries have literally 100 listings for each word.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;40932186]listen to yourself. YOU are the one using hyperbole, YOU are the one not reading or bothering to actually reply to posts, YOU are the one making baseless assumptions about the actions of others in your post when it is clear you are wrong if you take the fucking effort to read what you are responding to. [editline]6th June 2013[/editline] yeah, and those slang dictionaries have literally 100 listings for each word.[/QUOTE] Please show me, for I am drunk. Literally drunk, I probably shouldn't be posting now. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("PUI" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

55 pages of descriptions for "swag" on urban dictionary

thread with discussion about literally anything? turns into a sexism debate. thread about sexism debate? turns into an english debate never change fp

[QUOTE=Water-Marine;40932197]Please show me, for I am drunk. Literally drunk, I probably shouldn't be posting now.[/QUOTE] show you where you were wrong? well the example I just pointed out is where you say gestapo just "skimmed" the video where as if you read his post its clear he saw every section of it as he responded to each part of the video in his long post which you admitted to not even reading [editline]6th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;40932203]thread with discussion about literally anything? turns into a sexism debate. thread about sexism debate? turns into an english debate never change fp[/QUOTE] when you can't win a debate, change the topic

I somewhat agree with Maddox on this, guys don't always do the best job of presenting women in video games. Far as I've seen, the best results come from a mixed gender team. Off the top of my head, a good example of mix gender teams depicting women is Silent Hill 3. The women on the team were very good at realigning the creation. [url=www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f6EWqCscyc#t=6m10s](6 minutes and 10 seconds in, for what I'm talking about.)[/url]

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;40932200]55 pages of descriptions for "swag" on urban dictionary[/QUOTE] Urban Dictionary is pretty satirical though. [url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=uguu[/url] From an actual slang dictionary, it has way less entries. [url]http://209.197.79.194/meaning-definition-of/swag[/url]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932235]Urban Dictionary is pretty satirical though. [url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=uguu[/url] From an actual slang dictionary, it has way less entries. [url]http://209.197.79.194/meaning-definition-of/swag[/url][/QUOTE] 'actual slang dictionary' lol

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;40932212]show you where you were wrong? well the example I just pointed out is where you say gestapo just "skimmed" the video where as if you read his post its clear he saw every section of it as he responded to each part of the video in his long post which you admitted to not even reading [editline]6th June 2013[/editline] when you can't win a debate, change the topic[/QUOTE] 1. He said women were too intimidated to join the business when the video clearly showed women who were part of the game industry 2. When did I admit to not reading his post?

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;40932235]Urban Dictionary is pretty satirical though. [url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=uguu[/url] From an actual slang dictionary, it has way less entries. [url]http://209.197.79.194/meaning-definition-of/swag[/url][/QUOTE] actual...? As if there is one singular official one? do you see the flaw in your argument now? There is no true official source on this. did you know that dictionaries get edited? did you know there is MORE THAN ONE DICTIONARY? wow, stunning, I know! again, this is all irrelevant anyway. you are arguing a meaning of the word rather than the justifications of the actions in question [editline]6th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Water-Marine;40932266]1. He said women were too intimidated to join the business when the video clearly showed women who were part of the game industry 2. When did I admit to not reading his post?[/QUOTE] your posts clearly imply it but i will give you the benefit of the doubt of reading it, that said you acted as if responding to it was a joke and that he was wrong for writing and posting his opinion; ie the point of a forum. you go on to say aggressive arguments will get people no where when his post was not in any way aggressive, and beyond that you managed to disagree with him on the one point where he agreed with the video! While you may have read the post it seems to me you were arguing for the sake of arguing. Do you really think men cannot write female characters and women cannot write males? Have you ever seen a movie? Do you know they don't hire men to write women and women to write men? Just think about it for a moment. [editline]6th June 2013[/editline] women are a part of the industry but if you look at the video posted on page 2 you will see where they are explicitly DISCOURAGED from being a part of the industry after joining or even before joining it (as an intern, etc, etc). [editline]6th June 2013[/editline] beyond all of that you put down people for not having a "calm argument" when you claimed to be "destroying" gestapo. what part of that is calm, or kind?

[QUOTE=HeroicPillow;40932055]Maddox neither stated that it was impossible for men to relate to women, nor did he state that men (in general) "inherently suck at writing female characters". He stated that men "don't identify with being female". Which basically means that "men" haven't lived their whole lives as "female" and thus can't accurately feel some of the societal constructs or beliefs that have organically/subconsciously been embedded in a stereotypical female. The same could be said about female->male, although to a lesser extent due to the traditionally male-oriented media thus far that typically is told and presented from the point of view of a man. He even shows a few examples where men/women have more or less portrayed the opposite gender relatively accurately throughout the video. It's not particularly hard to write a generic human abstracted away from genders, but because most of this is a work of fantasy, exaggerations and stereotypes are often used to make it more interesting than real life. [/QUOTE] Well, first of all, thanks for actually taking the time to make a counter argument. I accept that men can't fully identify with being female and I can see how that would make it difficult to write realistic female characters, but the problem is not that they aren't realistic enough, it's that they aren't realistic at all. More often than not, female characters in video games are little more than sexualized objects that exist either as eyecandy or as cheap plot devices to get the player engaged in the story. Like I said, relatively accurate portrayals would be great, but most of the time the portrayal isn't accurate at all. [quote]Videogames are still a relatively new medium compared to written works, and as such hasn't had much time to mature. Now i'm not well versed into the actual history of magazines/newspapers, and because I don't really give enough of a fuck to actually research it, I can only assume that it was a pretty male-dominated medium up until the early/mid 20th century or so. That would give newspapers well over 200 years until the demographics actually started being oriented more towards neutrality (or even male/female specific). Then at some point some women (or men) had a great idea of targeting it to a specific demographic; in this case women. [/quote] Products are marketed towards different demographics, there's nothing wrong with that all, but it's a little different from videogames. Like you said, videogames are still a young medium in comparison to others, which are more diversified and thus better at meeting the demands of consumers. What's really the issue is that the vast majority of videogames are marketed towards a 14-30 year old male demographic, even though women make about 40% of all gamers (this is data from 2010 it's likely risen since then). This won't change unless we show the market that we are no longer interested in trite, regurgitated game ideas that cater to only one demographic. Being critical and creating a demand for better games benefits everyone. [quote]Why do we need to explicitly encourage women to join the industry? Just say, "hey here's a thing you can make however you want to and see anything in your imagination come to life... have at it", and i'm pretty sure anybody (regardless of gender) would say "hell yea sign me up". If they see a videogame where the characters are portrayed wrong and want to make sure the developers accurately portray women, they can go out and share their input with developers, or make a game themselves (or ignore it and move on with their life). and that's what a lot of women are doing, and is basically what maddox is saying in his video.[/quote] It's less about "Hey girl! join us today" and more about creating a less hostile workplace for women. Maybe you just haven't seen or heard about it, but the gaming industry is incredibly sexist, many female developers have spoken regarding the issue (for example, look up #1reasonwhy on Twitter), this discourages women who are interested in video game developing as a career path, creating what is basically a vicious circle: lack of women in the industry results in a male dominated industry, which later turns into sexism, which in turn makes women turn away from it, thus getting us back where we started. This lack of female developers, in turn, results in a largely inaccurate portrayal of women in videogames, like we've already discussed. [quote]Bringing back the book comparison, let's talk about Twilight for a moment. The males in that book are pretty stereotyped and are more or less a fantasy, but it's written by a woman for women, so it's not that big of a deal in my eyes because i'm a male and I don't typically read books targeted at females. If you don't like reading books with stereotyped males, you can either write to the author and tell them that they're a terrible writer and offer suggestions on how to write a more believable male character, or write a book of your own that accurately portrays a believable male character. It's not as if having too many books in the world is a bad thing; in fact it's pretty great! Why can't we have a ton of videogames all catering to every demographic and many catering to none in particular? That would be a nice world, where we can play tons of terrible fanservice porn games then go and play a sappy romance game, and end off the gaming session with some obscure psychedelic mindfuck game.[/quote] I pretty much agree with you here, but the thing is, we can deal with Twilight being a teenage female sexual fantasy because literature is such a bigger and more diverse medium than videogames, which like I said before, are predominantly marketed towards males. Literature has existed for thousands of years and has had enough time to mature and diversify, being able to deliver for every possible demographic. We want the same thing, you and I, more diversity in games, but as it stands today, they are in stagnation. And I strongly believe Maddox's mindset is counterproductive in regard to that goal. There are no right or wrong ways to go about fixing this problem, everyone can contribute the way they can. Not everyone can be a developer, but almost everyone is capable of critical thought and able to express their opinions, which is just as useful when dealing with social issues such as this one. Dismissing valid criticism as "complaining" and "bitching" only hinders progress. That's really all there's to my "radical" opinion.

Is this really everyone's biggest worry right now all the shit going on in the world and they're moaning about their ~"Human rights I have none"~ bullshit? I was brought up to give women my fullest and dearest respect, as do the majority of males in the first world, I seriously doubt all of the developers making sexualized women in games do it with the pure intention of sexual drive, it's to make the game appeal to men, men seek their ideal mate who is the most genetically superior, men, by nature, will choose to go for a big titted hot woman and saving her from an evil villain, if you made her a small, limp nerdy girl there would be no incentive there for the player.

[QUOTE=Dead Madman;40933253]it's to make the game appeal to men, men seek their ideal mate who is the most genetically superior, men, by nature, will choose to go for a big titted hot woman and saving her from an evil villain[/QUOTE] [img]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/2/0/biotruths.001.gif[/img]

Boobies on the wind~

The only way to fix this is to have more females in the gaming industry. Changing public opinion doesn't matter as much as people make it up to be. To most people,games are for FUN so they buy stuff that are fun. The Story and Characters are only second to gameplay,so nobody gives a flippin fuck at sexy characters or not if it doesn't really bother them from having fun.

I'm incredibly angered by how the Twilight saga portrays men in such an unrealistic and shallow way. As if any man can simply become a sparkly vampire and have women fawning over them by the dozens. I'm going to start a kickstarter project to gather fifty grand so I can make a youtube video of me telling women to stop writing these books. It will be a massive success.

[QUOTE=V12US;40933526]I'm incredibly angered by how the Twilight saga portrays men in such an unrealistic and shallow way. As if any man can simply become a sparkly vampire and have women fawning over them by the dozens. I'm going to start a kickstarter project to gather fifty grand so I can make a youtube video of me telling women to stop writing these books. It will be a massive success.[/QUOTE] this is a huge problem with so many dudes here, you look at this purely as an us vs them issue, but it's not males vs females, it SHOULD be everyone vs inequality. don't you see that the way men are portrayed in twilight, despite it being written by a woman, is still a result of misogyny/male patriarchy? it's the gender roles enforced by this shit that causes women AND men to be portrayed these ways, men always have to be strong and dominant to be considered real men, women always have to be attractive and subservient. men are as much a victim as women when it comes to gender roles

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40933557]this is a huge problem with so many dudes here, you look at this purely as an us vs them issue, but it's not males vs females, it SHOULD be everyone vs inequality. don't you see that the way men are portrayed in twilight, despite it being written by a woman, is still a result of misogyny/male patriarchy? it's the gender roles enforced by this shit that causes women AND men to be portrayed these ways, men always have to be strong and dominant to be considered real men, women always have to be attractive and subservient. men are as much a victim as women when it comes to gender roles[/QUOTE] Who cares if men in fiction are oversexualized and are stuck in gender roles? It's [i]fiction[/i]. Its purpose is to [i]entertain[/i] I don't consume that piece of entertainment and it doesn't affect me so why should I care on what girls enjoy or not?

[QUOTE=Matrix374;40933604]Who cares if men in fiction are oversexualized and are stuck in gender roles? It's [i]fiction[/i]. Its purpose is to [i]entertain[/i] I don't consume that piece of entertainment and it doesn't affect me so why should I care on what girls enjoy or not?[/QUOTE] you might not realize this, but all media affects people perceptions, especially younger people (you know, the main demographic that plays videogames)

[QUOTE=Matrix374;40933604]Who cares if men in fiction are oversexualized and are stuck in gender roles? It's [i]fiction[/i]. Its purpose is to [i]entertain[/i] I don't consume that piece of entertainment and it doesn't affect me so why should I care on what girls enjoy or not?[/QUOTE] He wasn't being serious yo. edit: -Edit removed he was referring to all media.

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40933622]you might not realize this, but all media affects people perceptions, especially younger people (you know, the main demographic that plays videogames)[/QUOTE] won't somebody please think of the children

[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40933557]this is a huge problem with so many dudes here, you look at this purely as an us vs them issue, but it's not males vs females, it SHOULD be everyone vs inequality. don't you see that the way men are portrayed in twilight, despite it being written by a woman, is still a result of misogyny/male patriarchy? it's the gender roles enforced by this shit that causes women AND men to be portrayed these ways, men always have to be strong and dominant to be considered real men, women always have to be attractive and subservient. men are as much a victim as women when it comes to gender roles[/QUOTE] When I look around me, I see nothing of this "men have to be dominant/women have to be subservient" shit. I think the real problem is that some people have started to substitute their view on reality with what is portrayed on television and other media.

[QUOTE=soulharvester;40933623]He wasn't being serious yo. edit: -Edit removed he was referring to all media.[/QUOTE] i was being serious but yeah i was just using twilight as an example because that's the example the fella who was trying to be ironic was using [editline]7th June 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=V12US;40933637]When I look around me, I see nothing of this "men have to be dominant/women have to be subservient" shit. I think the real problem is that some people have started to substitute their view on reality with what is portrayed on television and other media.[/QUOTE] so noone ever picked on you for being smaller than other guys? noone picked on you for not having a girlfriend or having sex as early as others? you've never been made to feel inferior because you didn't do sports or were as good as sports as others? these things are all a result of the gender role males have been forced into.

Oh. I thought he had quoted V12US, my bad.

During the feminism wars of 2053, men fought with ratings and hurt feelings to beat their adversaries to a minimal unsatisfied state. In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war.