I really like this video and how it's presented, she did a good job of bringing up the issues using mostly factual information, but there's just one thing I gotta say
[url=https://www.google.ca/search?q=sexy+male+halloween+costumes&rlz=1C1CHFX_enCA551CA551&espv=210&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=tuIYU9yTEtGFogSggYKgBQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=955]There are plenty of sexualized male costumes too[/url] :v:
[QUOTE=BLOODGA$M;44146417][url]https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates[/url][/QUOTE]
can we all just agree that no matter your opinion on how this relates to the topic at hand, or if it's a bit old, these statistics are heart crushingly sad
snip
[QUOTE=Elspin;44151520]
[B]can we all just agree that no matter your opinion on how this relates to the topic at hand, or if it's a bit old, these statistics are heart crushingly sad[/B][/QUOTE]
It's heart crushingly sad that everyone who's accused of rape isn't thrown in jail?
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44151936]It's heart crushingly sad that everyone who's accused of rape isn't thrown in jail?[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.leftfootforward.org/images/2013/02/Rape-graph2.png[/img]
Dude, the conviction rates on rape are pathetic. And don't start on the false rape stuff; to put that canard in perspective, I give this quote:
[quote=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape]
A report by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) examined rape allegations in England and Wales over a 17-month period between January 2011 and May 2012. It showed that in 35 cases authorities prosecuted a person for making a false allegation, while they brought 5,651 prosecutions for rape. Keir Starmer, the head of the CPS, said that the "mere fact that someone did not pursue a complaint or retracted it, is not of itself evidence that it was false" and that it is a "misplaced belief" that false accusations of rape are commonplace. He added that the report also showed that a significant number of false allegations of rape (and domestic violence) "involved young, often vulnerable people. About half of the cases involved people aged 21 years old and under, and some involved people with mental health difficulties. In some cases, the person alleged to have made the false report had undoubtedly been the victim of some kind of offence, even if not the one that he or she had reported."[/quote]
[QUOTE=JurajIsNotPirat;44151794]I don't completely understand what you're trying to say. I was just stating that you can't really use satirical work to back your point.[/QUOTE]
You're saying that we can't use it to back the point because it's satirical and criticizes that behavior.
I'm saying that while it is in a comedy series, they more often than not present it as something positive or at least completely normal and neutral. Just because it's in a comedy it doesn't mean they are making fun of it.
[QUOTE=JurajIsNotPirat;44151794]Still, magazines with sex tips don't have anything to do with objectification.[/QUOTE]
It's relevant to the self objectification. Tips like "How can I build a butt that women will want to grab?" are basically tips how to make yourself a better sex object. It tells you that who you are depends on your looks and to do things for sex.
It's one thing to have an article how to get nice abs and there's an article going "you've gotta use this awesome abs training to get all the pussies wet".
[QUOTE=JurajIsNotPirat;44151794]Yeah, that's the argument she's using but it has zero to do with objectification. She threw the word "sexual" in it to make it seem relevant. It's a poorly chosen argument.[/QUOTE]
I think the point was more about the men being subjects and women being objects. As in, men as sexual subjects can't look at women as anything else than objects of sexual/romantic interest. It wasn't strictly about objectification but rather the subject/object correlation.
[QUOTE=JurajIsNotPirat;44151794]I think I came across as trying to attack and disprove her beliefs. Again, I was criticizing her reasoning. I'm not saying what she [I]intended to[/I] say is wrong, I'm saying the arguments she actually presented are poor and invalid.[/QUOTE]
Okay, and I'm just replying to your arguments on why the points presented were poor. I think they were okay, although rushed for the audience with attention disorders, and a bit too focused on one side with examples but she does say "people" or "men and women" every so often so it shouldn't come off as "those are the problems only women face" or something like that like we usually get.
Generally a very good video. One nitpick: To say that the image of the woman bending over looks normal and the man doing the same thing looks awkward because women are objectified and men aren't is not really accurate. A lot of it just has to do with the pose itself: it looks strange for a man, but men are objectified in media as well. You might see plenty of pictures of hunky shirtless dudes modeling clothing and underwear, but none are going to be in that position. That's not because they're not being objectified, it's because it's generally not a pose that make sense for sexualizing (straight) men.
[editline]6th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152102]Dude, the conviction rates on rape are pathetic. And don't start on the false rape stuff; to put that canard in perspective, I give this quote:[/QUOTE]
I don't get this sentiment, it's tantamount to "guilty until proven innocent... and sometimes even if you're proven innocent." You seem to be implying that those ~1,000 prosecuted cases found not guilty are actually all obviously rapists who now get to walk free, and that's a very dangerous assumption because society then vilifies people who have not been proven to have done anything wrong.
I'm not saying we should call all the women who made accusations toward men found not guilty should be branded as liars without any solid proof, but it's pretty awful to assume that anyone charged with rape is a rapist even if they're found not guilty.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152102]Dude, the conviction rates on rape are pathetic. And don't start on the false rape stuff; to put that canard in perspective, I give this quote:[/QUOTE]
Uhhhhh 12% false allegation? It says so in your own fucking image?
And you are really full of shit to try to present the number of 35 of false reports when that 35 is from the 18% that make it to prosecution. You would THINK that maybe false reports usually don't make it that far?
[editline]7th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;44152133]I don't get this sentiment, it's tantamount to "guilty until proven innocent... and sometimes even if you're proven innocent." [B]You seem to be implying that those ~1,000 prosecuted cases found not guilty are actually all obviously rapists who now get to walk free[/B], and that's a very dangerous assumption because society then vilifies people who have not been proven to have done anything wrong.
I'm not saying we should call all the women who made accusations toward men found not guilty should be branded as liars without any solid proof, but it's pretty awful to assume that anyone charged with rape is a rapist even if they're found not guilty.[/QUOTE]
No he assumes that it's over 14,000 rapists to get to walk free.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152102]
Dude, the conviction rates on rape are pathetic. And don't start on the false rape stuff; to put that canard in perspective, I give this quote:[/QUOTE]
You do realize that, for a rape accusation to be called false, you need to not only uncover enough evidence that the woman's claim was malicious, but go through the whole court system to get a conviction? Barely anyone wants to go through that, partially because it's another slug-fest of "he said/she said" but also because it might dissuade women from reporting rape.
It's far more likely dropped sometime between accusation and going to court, which makes it ping as just another one of the cases you listed.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44152260]Uhhhhh 12% false allegation? It says so in your own fucking image?
And you are really full of shit to try to present the number of 35 of false reports when that 35 is from the 18% that make it to prosecution. You would THINK that maybe false reports usually don't make it that far?
[/QUOTE] It's an illustration of the relative sizes of the issues. Did you even read the quote?
[quote]I don't get this sentiment, it's tantamount to "guilty until proven innocent... and sometimes even if you're proven innocent." You seem to be implying that those ~1,000 prosecuted cases found not guilty are actually all obviously rapists who now get to walk free, and that's a very dangerous assumption because society then vilifies people who have not been proven to have done anything wrong.
I'm not saying we should call all the women who made accusations toward men found not guilty should be branded as liars without any solid proof, but it's pretty awful to assume that anyone charged with rape is a rapist even if they're found not guilty. [/quote]
That isn't the issue. The issue is 61,951 other rapes that never met the law.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44151936]It's heart crushingly sad that everyone who's accused of rape isn't thrown in jail?[/QUOTE]
dude wow this is a fucked up thing to say in regards to the statistics that barely any rapists are convicted
[QUOTE=Elspin;44152581]dude wow this is a fucked up thing to say in regards to the statistics that barely any rapists are convicted[/QUOTE]
Well you were kind of implying that every accusation that didn't result in a conviction was a rapist walking free.
That's some serious guilty until proven innocent shit.
[editline]6th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152543]
That isn't the issue. The issue is 61,951 other rapes that never met the law.[/QUOTE]
How did they come to this number?
The really odd thing about this issue is that pretty much everyone is against the sexual objectification of women, it's not like anyone could see it as a good thing, just no-one knows exactly what to do about it because it's so deeply ingrained in our culture.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152543]It's an illustration of the relative sizes of the issues. Did you even read the quote.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have read the quote, I have mentioned the number 35 that's in the quote didn't I? Have you read it? Have you read what's on the image you posted?
And how does the fact that it's an illustration of relative sizes of the issues has anything to do with the fact that the number of false reports you've given is a number of false reports who were PROVEN to be false at the stage of prosecution. How many false cases haven't made it to prosecution is unknown. But it does say that 12% of reported cases were lost at the police stage due to false allegation, so you have just killed your own argument that it barely ever happens.
And so to present the number 35 as the number of all false claims is a straight up lie.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44152602]
[editline]6th March 2014[/editline]
How did they come to this number?[/QUOTE]
Peruse the source document yourself: [url]https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf[/url]
[editline]6th March 2014[/editline]
[quote]And so to present the number 35 as the number of all false claims is a straight up lie. [/quote]
I never did any such thing; any crime's actual rate is going be higher than reported. I was merely using it as a size comparison. Also, 12 percent false rate versus everything else? that's not very big, all things considered.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;44152602]Well you were kind of implying that every accusation that didn't result in a conviction was a rapist walking free.
That's some serious guilty until proven innocent shit.[/QUOTE]
No, I was not. A ridiculously high amount of people go through some form of sexual assault in their life and if your natural reaction to hearing a statistic about how few rapes are even [i]reported[/i] is "well they were probably making it up" you are an awful person
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152775]I never did any such thing; any crime's actual rate is going be higher than reported. I was merely using it as a size comparison.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152102]Dude, the conviction rates on rape are pathetic. And don't start on the false rape stuff; to put that canard in perspective, I give this quote:
[quote]A report by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) examined rape allegations in England and Wales over a 17-month period between January 2011 and May 2012. It showed that in 35 cases authorities prosecuted a person for making a false allegation, while they brought 5,651 prosecutions for rape. Keir Starmer, the head of the CPS, said that the "mere fact that someone did not pursue a complaint or retracted it, is not of itself evidence that it was false" and that it is a "misplaced belief" that false accusations of rape are commonplace. He added that the report also showed that a significant number of false allegations of rape (and domestic violence) "involved young, often vulnerable people. About half of the cases involved people aged 21 years old and under, and some involved people with mental health difficulties. In some cases, the person alleged to have made the false report had undoubtedly been the victim of some kind of offence, even if not the one that he or she had reported."[/quote][/QUOTE]
Stop backpedaling.
You were making an argument how rape false claims barely every happen in a reply to a guy who pointed out that it's pretty "odd how that graph implies every single accusation of rape is genuine, and the fact many don't lead to prosecutions or arrests is some horrific affront to the legal system" and how assuming that everyone accused of rape is guilty is wrong.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44152775]Also, 12 percent false rate versus everything else? that's not very big, all things considered.[/QUOTE]
I think 12% way more than enough not to argue against someone who thinks that assuming that everyone accused of rape is guilty, because that was his only point and you opposed him with nice charts and wikiquotes to prove him wrong.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44152929]Stop backpedaling.
You were making an argument how rape false claims barely every happen in a reply to a guy who pointed out that it's pretty "odd how that graph implies every single accusation of rape is genuine, and the fact many don't lead to prosecutions or arrests is some horrific affront to the legal system" and how assuming that everyone accused of rape is guilty is wrong.
I think 12% way more than enough not to argue against someone who thinks that assuming that everyone accused of rape is guilty, because that was his only point and you opposed him with nice charts and wikiquotes to prove him wrong.[/QUOTE]
[b]If less than 2000 people are convicted of rape out of an estimated 78,000 offenses we have a way bigger problem than false convictions[/b]
[QUOTE=Elspin;44153009][b]If less than 2000 people are convicted of rape out of an estimated 78,000 offenses we have a way bigger problem than false convictions[/b][/QUOTE]
So we should put everyone who's accused of rape into jail? Because you are arguing against someone who only said we shouldn't assume that everyone is guilty. That's the only thing he said and you are disagreeing.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44153070]So we should put everyone who's accused of rape into jail? Because you are arguing against someone who only said we shouldn't assume that everyone is guilty. That's the only thing he said and you are disagreeing.[/QUOTE]
No, I'm not. I'm saying that every time the low conviction rape is brought up certain people do the same thing every time - they say "well what should we assume guilty you're just awful think about the poor guys convicted falsely of rape". Nobody is saying we should do that and yet somehow, these people are more upset about [b]the possibility[/b] of people being falsely convicted than the actual rapists going free. If that doesn't say serious disturbing things about your character then I don't know what does
One of the reasons the reporting rate is so low among actual victims is a bunch of terrible people jump up and go "you're just a slut, you're making it up, etc". There were THREATS to the victims of the steubenville rapists despite there being video of them being dragged around unconscious! I'm not saying we should assume people accused of rape are immediately guilty and I swear to god if you try to say that you've got problems, but we need to change the attitude people have towards people reporting it
I'm not a sex object
I'm a sex machine
Only thing I got out of this video is that she is reiterating the topic of women being sexually objectified.
Every topic she brought up has been discussed plenty of times.
[QUOTE=Elspin;44153009][b]If less than 2000 people are convicted of rape out of an estimated 78,000 offenses we have a way bigger problem than false convictions[/b][/QUOTE]
Major crimes require substantial evidence. You shouldn't be making convictions willy-nilly.
[QUOTE=Elspin;44153161]No, I'm not. I'm saying that every time the low conviction rape is brought up certain people do the same thing every time - they say "well what should we assume guilty you're just awful think about the poor guys convicted falsely of rape". Nobody is saying we should do that and yet somehow, these people are more upset about [B]the possibility[/B] of people being falsely convicted than the actual rapists going free. If that doesn't say serious disturbing things about your character then I don't know what does
One of the reasons the reporting rate is so low among actual victims is a bunch of terrible people jump up and go "you're just a slut, you're making it up, etc". There were THREATS to the victims of the steubenville rapists despite there being video of them being dragged around unconscious! I'm not saying we should assume people accused of rape are immediately guilty and I swear to god if you try to say that you've got problems, but we need to change the attitude people have towards people reporting it[/QUOTE]
There was never an argument against any of that. This whole off topic started with a guy just pointing out that a certain graph assumed that every report is true and that it's odd. Nobody went "well what should we assume guilty you're just awful think about the poor guys convicted falsely of rape" or "they are sluts and they make it up" or whatever. You people completely overreacted and started making counter-arguments to things that nobody said. If you agree that we shouldn't assume that everyone who's accused of rape is guilty, as you just said you do, then there's nothing to disagree with on this topic, because he said just that.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44153283]There was never an argument against any of that. This whole off topic started with a guy just pointing out that a certain graph assumed that every report is true and that it's odd. Nobody went "well what should we assume guilty you're just awful think about the poor guys convicted falsely of rape" or "they are sluts and they make it up" or whatever. You people completely overreacted and started making counter-arguments to things that nobody said. If you agree that we shouldn't assume that everyone who's accused of rape is guilty, as you just said you do, then there's nothing to disagree with on this topic, because he said just that.[/QUOTE]
Uh actually the off-topic started when I said that it was really sad how few rapists go to prison and instead of the "yeah, it's fucked up" agreement I expected a massive misogynist said "It's heart crushingly sad that everyone who's accused of rape isn't thrown in jail?" despite the fact that nobody on the planet was saying we should do that. I'm no psychologist but I think you people need to deal with some internal issues you're facing over this
[QUOTE=JurajIsNotPirat;44150329]
The first thing she brings up is that women in sitcoms are portrayed as "something to have sex with". This is in a [i]comedy show[/i] and is a work of satire. There are women potrayed as objects of desire, there are women potrayed as delirious housewives, there are men portrayed as sex addicts, there are men potrayed as mindless office slaves. Sitcoms use stereotypical characters for the purpose of [I]poking fun at these stereotypes[/I]. It is not meant to be taken seriously, it's a situational comedy show, the point does not stand.[/QUOTE]
As a published satirist I don't consider sitcoms to be satire, and not all comedy shows are satirical. Using a stereotype as a lazy writing convention is not creating dissonant thought on a topic through humor.
An episode of How I Met Your Mother or Family Guy with a cutesy ending and some tiny moral lesson doesn't stick with the viewer and only serves to make us feel good.
Satire is fundamentally unsatisfying by nature, as the hope is for us to reevaluate our own internal position on an issue by allowing us to pose then resolve a moral or societal question.
[QUOTE=Covalency;44148271]If she's talking about sexual objectification, why is she wearing a shirt that clearly displays her cleavage?
Is that not being a hypocrite of what she is saying herself?[/QUOTE]
No, that's you doing exactly what the video is against
[editline]6th March 2014[/editline]
That shirts not even very low cut ffs
Holy shit though, how could you post that after watching the video and not realize you're just being a sexist asshole
[editline]6th March 2014[/editline]
she should have just worn a full burqa for this so people don't think she's a slut for showing 1% of her total cleavage
[QUOTE=JurajIsNotPirat;44150329]She follows this up by stating that science has discovered that both men and women see other women as a "mish-mash of sexual body parts". This is a baseless claim, as she doesn't refer to any actual scientific study. Honestly, this doesn't only smell of generalisation but I also find it quite ridiculous. I'd like to see the study itself.[/QUOTE]
I remember the study it was even posted on FP. Well... I think she's referring to this study.
It wasn't saying that women are seen as a "mish-mash of sexual body parts" it was saying that when we look at women we look at each parts separately. Such as eyes, mouth, nose, etc... (and not sexual body parts specifically) whereas men as looked at as a whole.
[quote]odd how that graph implies every single accusation of rape is genuine[/quote]
Good lord, drop that strawman. A notation of it being suspiciously low doesn't mean every charge against someone is real, FFS.
I have to say that she did a very good job with this video and that I agree with almost all of what she said.
We as humans are outpaced in social norms and modern culture by our primal urge to mate. We did not look at women thousands of years ago as something to only mate with because they were nice people, we mated based on physical appearance (childbearing hips ect.) This is probably why the objectification has carried over to the modern man, because we have that shit hard coded in our DNA.
I also disagree with that whole self image tangent she went on about women turning themselves into sex objects. Look at the media marketed to both genders, they paint an archetype that are occupied by little of the adult world, to make that exclusively for women and somehow paint others at fault is immature. Its your fault if you aspire to be like that.
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