• Feminist Pretends To Be Male.. And Learns Important lesson.
    66 replies, posted
[QUOTE=cbb;53107249]I'm actually not. I encourage you to look up the definition of gender. It used to be a synonym for sex but took on a definition of its own starting in the 50s and the distinction between the two has only become more pronounced since then. Sex describes biological differences between people and gender describes social differences between people.[/QUOTE] No it's me who encourages you to look up the definition of gender identity and gender expression. [QUOTE=gokiyono;53107287]I don't think so. I mean, I've thought about it for a while now and I can't really come up with anything that isn't defined by culture. It's also pretty difficult to say given how culture pretty much Trumps most things humanity. I'm curious though, why do you ask?[/QUOTE] But culture defines how you express (or should) your masculinity or femininity. It doesn't dictate which one you are. And when it does try to tell you that you are a woman while you don't feel like one it gets really hard on you, no? And I asked this because the video touches on that, she didn't feel as herself and got into mental problems because she was pretending to be the other gender for too long. If it's just a social construct then you should be able to just discard it off-hand or switch it whenever you like. [editline]4th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=cbb;53107309]Can you give an example of a behavioral difference that gender is based on that is both a reliable predictor of behavior and distinct between the sexes?[/QUOTE] Risk taking.
[QUOTE=omarfr;53107532]My problem with this definition of gender is that it totally dismisses the reality of being transgender people. If gender is just how we act according to societal norms then what the hell does that have to do with pronouns and feeling like a the opposite sex? I know girls who do more typical male things but they still consider themselves women. I have trans friends who like typical aspects of their birth sex but genuinely feel and distraught by the fact that their body/sex is not their own.[/QUOTE] I don't really see how it dismisses trans people. The reason that people like me say that gender is a social construct is because the non-biological differences between the sexes are effectively non-existent. We can't really attribute any type of behavior to either sex. The way that I reconcile this with the reality of trans people is that they experience dysphoria as a result of their birth sex and the way society perceives their gender. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;53107534]No it's me who encourages you to look up the definition of gender identity and gender expression.[/QUOTE] How do you define gender then? I'm just going off of my understanding of the concept and the definitions I've read for it so I'm curious. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;53107534]Risk taking.[/QUOTE] That's a fairly reliable predictor but it's not distinct between the sexes. We can say that women often take less risks than men but we can't say that taking less risks is a female trait. For example, I wouldn't say that someone that identifies as a man acts like a girl because he is incredibly risk adverse.
[QUOTE=cbb;53107589]I don't really see how it dismisses trans people. The reason that people like me say that gender is a social construct is because the non-biological differences between the sexes are effectively non-existent. We can't really attribute any type of behavior to either sex. The way that I reconcile this with the reality of trans people is that they experience dysphoria as a result of their birth sex and the way society perceives their gender.[/QUOTE] But the biological differences do exists. There are observable differences in the brain between males and females and, incidentally, there is evidence of transpersons having brains that more closely resemble the brains of those whom they typically identify with. IE: Transwomen having brains that are closer to those of females than that of males. What you are talking about with the perception of society and gender is instead gender roles, the notion of how genders need to behave. Gender roles are social constructs entirely. Similarly is sexual orientation. Orientation appears to be something that occurs regardless of socialization, developing predominately from factors unique to each person. [QUOTE]How do you define gender then? I'm just going off of my understanding of the concept and the definitions I've read for it so I'm curious.[/QUOTE]Sex is physical, Gender is mental, Gender Roles are social.
[QUOTE=cbb;53107589]How do you define gender then? I'm just going off of my understanding of the concept and the definitions I've read for it so I'm curious.[/QUOTE] There's gender identity, what you identify as. This is hardwired, you can't change it, or reason yourself out of it. And there's gender expression and roles, which are societal standards of what's feminine/masculine. [QUOTE=cbb;53107589]That's a fairly reliable predictor but it's not distinct between the sexes. We can say that women often take less risks than men but we can't say that taking less risks is a female trait. For example, I wouldn't say that someone that identifies as a man acts like a girl because he is incredibly risk adverse.[/QUOTE] You are asking for a gender-exclusive trait then? And if there are no gender-exclusive traits then it must mean that genders are just made up? That's not how it works, men and women are not as different as rabbits and potatoes. Of course we will behave similarly to a certain extent, what is this? [QUOTE=cbb;53107589]I don't really see how it dismisses trans people. The reason that people like me say that gender is a social construct is because the non-biological differences between the sexes are effectively non-existent. We can't really attribute any type of behavior to either sex. The way that I reconcile this with the reality of trans people is that they experience dysphoria as a result of their birth sex and the way society perceives their gender. [/QUOTE] So you're saying that in a society where both sexes can act, dress and do whatever they like and there's no division in any aspect based on sex they wouldn't feel dysphoria? This is dismissive because you're saying that there's a super easy way to treat gender dysphoria, you just need to care fuck-all about what other people think and you are done. If it's just a social construct, you can discard it and tell people to fuck off. Gender dysphoria is the feeling of disconnect with yourself not with other people and their expectations.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;53107534]But culture defines how you express (or should) your masculinity or femininity. It doesn't dictate which one you are. And when it does try to tell you that you are a woman while you don't feel like one it gets really hard on you, no? And I asked this because the video touches on that, she didn't feel as herself and got into mental problems because she was pretending to be the other gender for too long. If it's just a social construct then you should be able to just discard it off-hand or switch it whenever you like.[/QUOTE] Yeah and that's why I said that it was difficult to describe. And about her mental problems, they seem to stem more from the fact that she had been dressing up for so long and pretending to be a man. Which worsened by her being in a therapy group for men where they mostly talked about their wives and such
[QUOTE=ElderLolz;53107018]This whole "feminism gets rekt" schtick is so incredibly cringy[/QUOTE] she's trying to actually understand the world from the other side and that isn't enough apparently its not even 'modern' Antia-Feminist either
[QUOTE=gokiyono;53107652]Yeah and that's why I said that it was difficult to describe. And about her mental problems, they seem to stem more from the fact that she had been dressing up for so long and pretending to be a man. Which worsened by her being in a therapy group for men where they mostly talked about their wives and such[/QUOTE] That too but listen to what she says after 16:50
[QUOTE=V12US;53107496][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/f4JSONf.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] I don't think feminism is anti-men and I don't even think lesbians are even anti-men. what the hell is this even from [QUOTE=J!NX;53107707]The current extremist vocal minority of feminism is anti-male, at least in the US[/QUOTE] Exactly? they're a minority if they exist at all.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53107694]I don't think feminism is anti-men and I don't even thing lesbians are even anti-men[/QUOTE] The current extremist vocal minority of feminism is anti-male, at least in the US
Where did you dig up this old fossil of a video?
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;53107618]But the biological differences do exists. There are observable differences in the brain between males and females and, incidentally, there is evidence of transpersons having brains that more closely resemble the brains of those whom they typically identify with. IE: Transwomen having brains that are closer to those of females than that of males.[/QUOTE] I'm very interested in this kind of research but to my understanding we haven't made very much substantial progress in it. One problem I could see with it though is people arguing that a trans person is less or more male or female depending on their brain. For instance, if one MtF trans person has a brain that we can say is 'less' female than another MtF trans person's brain - does that make them less female? I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with using a person's brain as evidence of their gender because it seems very similar to using any other part of their biology as evidence for their gender. [QUOTE]What you are talking about with the perception of society and gender is instead gender roles, the notion of how genders need to behave. Gender roles are social constructs entirely. Similarly is sexual orientation. Orientation appears to be something that occurs regardless of socialization, developing predominately from factors unique to each person.[/QUOTE] This is a very difficult concept for me to understand as a cis person but what's the mental dichotomy between one gender and another? How does a person 'know' what it feels like to be male or female? It's clear that they do know but we don't seem to understand how that process works. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;53107642]There's gender identity, what you identify as. This is hardwired, you can't change it, or reason yourself out of it. And there's gender expression and roles, which are societal standards of what's feminine/masculine.[/QUOTE] I don't think I ever suggested that you can change your gender identity but I apologize if it came off that way. It's very much hardwired and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise. [QUOTE]You are asking for a gender-exclusive trait then? And if there are no gender-exclusive traits then it must mean that genders are just made up? That's not how it works, men and women are not as different as rabbits and potatoes. Of course we will behave similarly to a certain extent, what is this?[/QUOTE] It isn't that genders are made up but that they're a product of a person's mind. It's very clear that a trans person knows that they're trans but I'm not sure how the mental processes behind how they feel that way work and if they're free of societal influence. [QUOTE]So you're saying that in a society where both sexes can act, dress and do whatever they like and there's no division in any aspect based on sex they wouldn't feel dysphoria? This is dismissive because you're saying that there's a super easy way to treat gender dysphoria, you just need to care fuck-all about what other people think and you are done. If it's just a social construct, you can discard it and tell people to fuck off. Gender dysphoria is the feeling of disconnect with yourself not with other people and their expectations.[/QUOTE] I imagine they would still feel just as much dysphoria from their sex. If there's no difference between how men and women act and a society doesn't see any difference between the two except biological differences then I don't know how a person would experience dysphoria beyond their sex. Admittedly I don't know what it's like to be a trans person and my scientific understanding is very limited so I don't want it come off like I'm speaking from some kind of authority.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;53107684]That too but listen to what she says after 16:50[/QUOTE] I mean, that's kind of what I'm basing what I say off of :v: Like, I'm thinking that if you spend so much time trying to be someone or something that you're not, it's not going to go well. But I don't really know
[QUOTE=Waffle cones.;53107751]The most shocking part of this video is that there's a verified YouTube channel named "Rekt Feminist Videos" with almost 600k subscribers. I'm sure they have an abundance of quality content.[/QUOTE] It truly is a fact-checkers nightmare :v: [t]https://i.imgur.com/tmVJ31i.jpg[/t]
Official merchandise? Really? :disappoint:
[QUOTE=V12US;53107496]"American Lesbians ruined feminism"[/QUOTE] Is this lady the equivalent of a TERF for lesbians or gay people in general?
When I address someone I like to use the term "animated object" or "moving organism" because it's true unless your a alien and not from earth.
[QUOTE=cbb;53107710] I imagine they would still feel just as much dysphoria from their sex. If there's no difference between how men and women act and a society doesn't see any difference between the two except biological differences then I don't know how a person would experience dysphoria beyond their sex. Admittedly I don't know what it's like to be a trans person and my scientific understanding is very limited so I don't want it come off like I'm speaking from some kind of authority.[/QUOTE] But that's the point. From what I'be gathered from my Trans friends. Transgender people don't feel wrong in their body because of societal norms between men and women. They feel a disconnect between their mental gender and biological sex. Societal expectations of men and women might upset them because it makes them feel uncomfortable about their disphoria, but it is not the disphoria itself. This their being a difference between Sex(Biological), Gender(Mental State), and Gender Norms (Societal Expectation). Thus why I have a lot of Trans friends who really feel that the new wave over Genderfluid movement is dismissive of their disorder because it seems to be based on societal expectation of gender norms rather than the Disphoria that makes you feel that your sex is wrong.
A couple points. Just because something is a social construct, doesn't mean it's "not real". Money is a social construct, but just because its value is "made up" doesn't make it not valuable. The value is very real. Secondly, there's a difference between gender identity and gender roles. The latter of which is most certainly fluid and a social construct. The former an aspect of neuroendocrinology and related to sex. [QUOTE=J!NX;53107707]The current extremist vocal minority of feminism is anti-male, at least in the US[/QUOTE] Er... huh? Radical TERFs and SWERFs, the SCUM manifesto, non-intersectionalism, lesbian seperatism, etc etc were all from the 60s and 70s and part of the second-wave feminist movement. If anything, this new third wave of feminists are often criticized as being [I]too[/I] moderate.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;53107694]I don't think feminism is anti-men and I don't even think lesbians are even anti-men. what the hell is this even from[/QUOTE] I think it started off as a smear campaign against feminism (like many things), but then awkwardly grew an arm on Tumblr where it's been growing ever since. They do exist (sadly) as a small minority and are the most vocal, which gives feminism as a whole a bad name and just stokes the fire of "all feminists are militant, men-haters" (which isn't the case at all) used by incels etc, which ends up making woman join their ranks out of genuine rage because some twat keeps telling them that. It's sad because the whole idea of feminism was meant to be equality based (very hard to deny or decry) but now like anything, there's always 1 sub-group which ruins it for the rest. Feminism isn't bad at all, it's just this sub-group giving genuine misogynists something to point at and use to fuel their own stupidity to "recruit" more idiots to their side (incels saying it to recruit more incels basically).
[QUOTE=V12US;53107496][img]https://i.imgur.com/f4JSONf.png[/img][/QUOTE] Did you actually just outst yourself as a homophobe? Congratu-fucking-lations.
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53108254]Did you actually just outst yourself as a homophobe? Congratu-fucking-lations.[/QUOTE] How do you even read it that way? She's referring to a minority of extremists who were, more often than not, lesbians; Not lesbians or LGBT as a whole.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;53106999]tbh reading that article just opens you up to how fucking scummy the video in the OP is.[/QUOTE] It's just the channel name over the video, seems fine otherwise (unless there are some dumb edits in there). Doesn't belong on the channel tho'
[QUOTE=GrammarCommie;53108034] Er... huh? Radical TERFs and SWERFs, the SCUM manifesto, non-intersectionalism, lesbian seperatism, etc etc were all from the 60s and 70s and part of the second-wave feminist movement. If anything, this new third wave of feminists are often criticized as being [I]too[/I] moderate.[/QUOTE] I was talking about some of the current most vocal group There are always extremists in every group. Regardless of if it was the same for older groups or not, there is a very vocal number of feminists that try and actively shame men for being male. I have no idea how big of a deal it is outside of the US but you do see it here, it's undeniable that there are extremely anti-male feminists out there. Many of them happen to exist in all forms, trans, lesb, even males. Most of it comes in the form of basically universally hating men. Of course, I'm not sure how moderate it is relative to 'old school feminism' [QUOTE=GrammarCommie;53108034]A couple points. Just because something is a social construct, doesn't mean it's "not real". Money is a social construct, but just because its value is "made up" doesn't make it not valuable. The value is very real.[/QUOTE] That I can totally agree with. A social contruct exists in the minds of those who create it. the social idea (Not the genetic definition) of 'race' for example. We've created huge divisions of people purely based on their genetic origins.
[QUOTE=cbb;53107710]I don't think I ever suggested that you can change your gender identity but I apologize if it came off that way. It's very much hardwired and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise. It isn't that genders are made up but that they're a product of a person's mind. It's very clear that a trans person knows that they're trans but I'm not sure how the mental processes behind how they feel that way work and if they're free of societal influence. I imagine they would still feel just as much dysphoria from their sex. If there's no difference between how men and women act and a society doesn't see any difference between the two except biological differences then I don't know how a person would experience dysphoria beyond their sex. Admittedly I don't know what it's like to be a trans person and my scientific understanding is very limited so I don't want it come off like I'm speaking from some kind of authority.[/QUOTE] Dude a muscular lesbian who's a truck driver, loves getting into drunken bar fights and watching football and going to bowling and to stripclubs who identifies herself as a woman doesn't feel gender dysphoria. If you want to say that gender is purely a social, cultural construct then it follows that you should be able to just discard those culture dictated standards as our friendly lesbian from the example above and be done with your transsexualism and gender dysphoria. It doens't work that way however. You even admitted this later yourself when you said that even if a society without any rules for men and women transsexual people would still feel dysphoria. So there is a hardwired aspect to gender that isn't socially constructed. You have a gender that you can't change and it doesn't go away with you stopping to care what other people think you should do. [QUOTE=gokiyono;53107718]I mean, that's kind of what I'm basing what I say off of :v: Like, I'm thinking that if you spend so much time trying to be someone or something that you're not, it's not going to go well. But I don't really know[/QUOTE] Okay I'm sorry I misunderstood. I thought you said got into mental issues only because she was "cheating" people. Apologies.
[QUOTE=V12US;53107496][img]https://i.imgur.com/f4JSONf.png[/img][/QUOTE] please link the original video of her saying this even if we pretend one person saying a dumb thing matters, i bet you if you find the actual source this is from she isn't even fucking saying what's subtitled into this image
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;53109214]Okay I'm sorry I misunderstood. I thought you said got into mental issues only because she was "cheating" people. Apologies.[/QUOTE] That's alright. I'm not entirely sure I've understood your question either, so I guess we kind of are in the same boat :v:
[QUOTE=gokiyono;53107509]This image reeks of citation needed tbh[/QUOTE] Wikipedia has a fair article on lesbian feminism. [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_feminism[/url] Modern feminism more often than not acts like lesbian feminism in practice, but second-wave feminism on paper, which makes it difficult to be critical of the movement without looking like an equality hating homophobe. This shuts down dialogue, creates extremism on both sides of the argument, and in general works against achieving equality for the sexes.
[QUOTE=V12US;53109255]Wikipedia has a fair article on lesbian feminism. [url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_feminism[/url] Modern feminism more often than not acts like lesbian feminism in practice, but second-wave feminism on paper, which makes it difficult to be critical of the movement without looking like an equality hating homophobe. This shuts down dialogue, creates extremism on both sides of the argument, and in general works against achieving equality for the sexes.[/QUOTE] That wasn't really the part that needed a citation the most
[QUOTE=gokiyono;53109262]That wasn't really the part that needed a citation the most[/QUOTE] Well I don't speak French, don't know what video the images are from, and there's too much garbage on youtube to try and find it via a broad search, so I'll have to disappoint people on the source. I don't plan to die on this hill, so I'll just say that it was probably a terrible idea to try and have this argument in a thread that started off with some retarded "feminist gets rekt" video, causing people to logically lunge for their ideology foxholes.
[QUOTE=V12US;53109283]Well I don't speak French, don't know what video the images are from, and there's too much garbage on youtube to try and find it via a broad search, so I'll have to disappoint people on the source. I don't plan to die on this hill, so I'll just say that it was probably a terrible idea to try and have this argument in a thread that started off with some retarded "feminist gets rekt" video, causing people to logically lunge for their ideology foxholes.[/QUOTE] It isn't really a retarded idea as long as you can provide a good source for what you claim then there's no problem to be had. Basically any that has high factual reporting on mediabiasfactcheck is all
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