[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49762952]All Lives Matter is bullshit though, not nearly as much white people are being killed by police. Barely, if any white people are discriminated against for their race.
To use a now cliche metaphor: you see two houses and one is on fire, you don't hose down the perfectly fine house as well just because "all houses matter". I know this is a tired metaphor but it rings true still.
Black Lives Matter isn't saying "Black lives are the only lives that matter". BLM isn't racist.[/QUOTE]
Let's just assume for the sake of argument that everything you've said is completely true.
What part of any of this makes the phrase "all lives matter" racist? What exactly does the word "racist" mean to you?
[editline]18th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49762963]What an asinine line of thinking.
"I mean, he's a total racist who has nothing beneficial towards race relations but he's sure about this because (insert dumbass reason here)"
Jared Taylor is a bonified, self-admitted racist. He has no right to talk about race in any format unless he relinquishes his past, and even then, I'll take whatever retarded, hateful shit dribbles out of his anus we call a mouth with a handful of salt.[/QUOTE]
I would advise you to do just that. I hardly think slime like him should be treated as an authority. But just because he shouldn't be taken at his word doesn't mean he's wrong.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49762965]Let's just assume for the sake of argument that everything you've said is completely true.
What part of any of this makes the phrase "all lives matter" racist? What exactly does the word "racist" mean to you?[/QUOTE]
OK let me rephrase myself, the literal phrase all lives matter isn't racist in and of itself. It's the way it is used to undermine and sometimes villainize BLM by saying "Oh you people are racist and elitist, I think ALL lives matter." Which is stupid, BLM isn't about "black supremacy", it's about equality.
Saying All Lives Matter is akin to saying "Oh, me? I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarian, I don't believe women are superior to men."
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49762983]OK let me rephrase myself, the literal phrase all lives matter isn't racist in and of itself. It's the way it is used to undermine and sometimes villainize BLM by saying "Oh you people are racist and elitist, I think ALL lives matter." Which is stupid, BLM isn't about "black supremacy", it's about equality.
Saying All Lives Matter is akin to saying "Oh, me? I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarian, I don't believe women are superior to men."[/QUOTE]
Is it not possible that someone might legitimately think that "all lives matter" is a better representation of their personal beliefs than "black lives matter"?
By the same token, is it not possible that someone might think "egalitarian" is a more accurate description of their political views than "feminist"?
If you think that BLM and feminism both stand for equal rights, then what's the problem with people choosing to use synonyms? What part of choosing to use those synonyms is racist?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763009]Is it not possible that someone might legitimately think that "all lives matter" is a better representation of their personal beliefs than "black lives matter"?
By the same token, is it not possible that someone might think "egalitarian" is a more accurate description of their political views than "feminist"?
If you think that BLM and feminism both stand for equal rights, then what's the problem with people choosing to use synonyms?[/QUOTE]
This post says it better than I could.
"Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!
The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.
That’s the situation of the “black lives matter” movement. Culture, laws, the arts, religion, and everyone else repeatedly suggest that all lives should matter. Clearly, that message already abounds in our society.
The problem is that, in practice, the world doesn’t work that way. You see the film Nightcrawler? You know the part where Renee Russo tells Jake Gyllenhal that she doesn’t want footage of a black or latino person dying, she wants news stories about affluent white people being killed? That’s not made up out of whole cloth — there is a news bias toward stories that the majority of the audience (who are white) can identify with. So when a young black man gets killed (prior to the recent police shootings), it’s generally not considered “news”, while a middle-aged white woman being killed is treated as news. And to a large degree, that is accurate — young black men are killed in significantly disproportionate numbers, which is why we don’t treat it as anything new. But the result is that, societally, we don’t pay as much attention to certain people’s deaths as we do to others. So, currently, we don’t treat all lives as though they matter equally.
Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase “black lives matter” also has an implicit “too” at the end: it’s saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying “all lives matter” is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It’s a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means “only black lives matter,” when that is obviously not the case. And so saying “all lives matter” as a direct response to “black lives matter” is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem."
[QUOTE=axelord157;49760340]That's because he is. Jared Taylor is a white nationalist. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Taylor[/url][/QUOTE]
do we have rules on posting stuff like white nationalist videos or
because if we don't let people use certain sources on the News section we may as well also ban posting things by confirmed racists
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763018]This post says it better than I could.
"Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!
The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.
That’s the situation of the “black lives matter” movement. Culture, laws, the arts, religion, and everyone else repeatedly suggest that all lives should matter. Clearly, that message already abounds in our society.
The problem is that, in practice, the world doesn’t work that way. You see the film Nightcrawler? You know the part where Renee Russo tells Jake Gyllenhal that she doesn’t want footage of a black or latino person dying, she wants news stories about affluent white people being killed? That’s not made up out of whole cloth — there is a news bias toward stories that the majority of the audience (who are white) can identify with. So when a young black man gets killed (prior to the recent police shootings), it’s generally not considered “news”, while a middle-aged white woman being killed is treated as news. And to a large degree, that is accurate — young black men are killed in significantly disproportionate numbers, which is why we don’t treat it as anything new. But the result is that, societally, we don’t pay as much attention to certain people’s deaths as we do to others. So, currently, we don’t treat all lives as though they matter equally.
Just like asking dad for your fair share, the phrase “black lives matter” also has an implicit “too” at the end: it’s saying that black lives should also matter. But responding to this by saying “all lives matter” is willfully going back to ignoring the problem. It’s a way of dismissing the statement by falsely suggesting that it means “only black lives matter,” when that is obviously not the case. And so saying “all lives matter” as a direct response to “black lives matter” is essentially saying that we should just go back to ignoring the problem."[/QUOTE]
I'm not a fan of responding to copy pasted bullshit. I'm talking to you, I want to know what you think, not what some blogger thinks. But I will do my best to address it.
This post starts and ends with an assumption. That being that the phrase "black lives matter" has an implicit "too" at the end. That everyone is viewing the phrase in the same context and using it in the exact same fashion the writer is.
When people are asked, "do black lives matter" and they respond with "all lives matter", they are not necessarily trying to sabotage BLM. They are asked what their views are, and they state in the clearest and most concise fashion available to them that, yes, all human beings are equal.
But because their response doesn't actively promote a specific activist movement, it's branded "racist". I find that unsettling.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763049]I'm not a fan of responding to copy pasted bullshit. I'm talking to you, I want to know what you think, not what some blogger thinks. But I will do my best to address it.
This post starts and ends with an assumption. That being that the phrase "black lives matter" has an implicit "too" at the end. That everyone is viewing the phrase in the same context and using it in the exact same fashion the writer is.
When people are asked, "do black lives matter" and they respond with "all lives matter", they are not necessarily trying to sabotage BLM. They are asked what their views are, and they state in the clearest and most concise fashion available to them that, yes, all human beings are equal.
But because their response doesn't actively promote a specific activist movement, it's branded "racist". I find that unsettling.[/QUOTE]
But Black Lives Matter ARE saying all human beings are equal. That is the whole fucking point of the movement.
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763054]But Black Lives Matter ARE saying all human beings are equal. That is the whole fucking point of the movement.[/QUOTE]
then what is wrong with saying all lives matter
it's just another way of saying what you think "black lives matter" implies, so what's the issue
all lives matter vs black lives matter is not about the literal contents of each statement
both are true, obviously
but just think about how much of a douche you sound like saying the first after someone else says the second
[b]Edit:[/b]
It's a way of saying either "your movement is invalid because it prioritizes one group of people disproportionately suffering over others that are not suffering as much or at all" or "your movement is invalid because it doesnt involve me, i literally need to be involved with everything, and then i wonder why people call me 'privileged'"
IF the movement is about equality than an equality statement shouldn't be seen is racist.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763060]then what is wrong with saying all lives matter
it's just another way of saying what you think "black lives matter" implies, so what's the issue[/QUOTE]
We're just running in circles at this point. I know responding with copy-pasted shit isn't something you like but I just think those 5 paragraphs summed it up better than I can and I fully agree with it.
All lives matter IS dumb because ALL people aren't being affected by police brutality and police killing people in the same way black people are affected. That isn't hard to grasp.
It is ALL ABOUT CONTEXT.
It certainly sounds reasonable enough and in most contexts, it would be. But the thing is, when people say “Black Lives Matter,” they are acknowledging an important context that involves several centuries of slavery, civil rights, mass incarceration and brutality. It’s specifically highlighting the value of black lives because, historically, this country has often ignored that value.
[QUOTE=person11;49763075]all lives matter vs black lives matter is not about the literal contents of each statement
both are true, obviously
but just think about how much of a douche you sound like saying the first after someone else says the second[/QUOTE]
why would you sound like a douche
honestly
if they mean the same thing then you should feel the exact same way saying either
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49762876]If you preach "All Lives Matter", you're either willfully racist....[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, because thinking that class is a bigger issue and believing that police brutality should be dealt with as an issue that affects everybody is racist.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763085]why would you sound like a douche
honestly
if they mean the same thing then you should feel the exact same way saying either[/QUOTE]
Context. Context. Context.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763085]why would you sound like a douche
honestly
if they mean the same thing then you should feel the exact same way saying either[/QUOTE]
we are not vulkans or robots, all of human society is built on your statement not being true
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763078]We're just running in circles at this point. I know responding with copy-pasted shit isn't something you like but I just think those 5 paragraphs summed it up better than I can and I fully agree with it.
All lives matter IS dumb because ALL people aren't being affected by police brutality and police killing people in the same way black people are affected. That isn't hard to grasp.
It is ALL ABOUT CONTEXT.
It certainly sounds reasonable enough and in most contexts, it would be. But the thing is, when people say “Black Lives Matter,” they are acknowledging an important context that involves several centuries of slavery, civil rights, mass incarceration and brutality. It’s specifically highlighting the value of black lives because, historically, this country has often ignored that value.[/QUOTE]
Again, just completely granting you your entire argument, I still fail to understand how saying "all lives matter" is racist in any fashion. And I still don't know what you mean when you say "racist".
Maybe to you, in your context, the phrase "black lives matter" might seem like a better choice. Maybe to another, in a different context, "all lives matter" might seem superior. Ultimately they both mean the same thing, yes? So what is the problem?
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763088]Context. Context. Context.[/QUOTE]
When they interrupted Bernie Sanders and O Malley they boo'ed them for going into detail about their plans to deal with racism, poverty and police brutality instead of parroting "black lives matter" back at them. This movement is a plague that harms the very issue they care about.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763102]Again, just completely granting you your entire argument, I still fail to understand how saying "all lives matter" is racist in any fashion. And I still don't know what you mean when you say "racist".
Maybe to you, in your context, the phrase "black lives matter" might seem like a better choice. Maybe to another, in a different context, "all lives matter" might seem superior. Ultimately they both mean the same thing, yes? So what is the problem?[/QUOTE]
Whoa whoa whoa, you're telling me things in DIFFERENT CONTEXTS may seem better than when they are said in OTHER CONTEXTS? Holy shit man you're blowing my mind.
It's almost like you ignored when I said in like the very first post in this argument that the phrase in and of itself isn't racist, it's how it is used to undermine and overshadow BLM.
[QUOTE=person11;49763093]we are not vulkans or robots, all of human society is built on your statement not being true[/QUOTE]
Yes, people are not purely logical. But here, discussing the issue like reasonable and logical beings, I'm asking why I should differentiate between them.
Because he said it was racist to "preach 'all lives matter'". Clearly he thinks it isn't synonymous. And I still fail to understand why that is.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49763106]When they interrupted Bernie Sanders and O Malley they boo'ed them for going into detail about their plans to deal with racism, poverty and police brutality instead of parroting "black lives matter" back at them. This movement is a plague that harms the very issue they care about.[/QUOTE]
You're telling me protesters...p-p-protested? Fucking scum of the earth, how dare they!!
You're choosing to ignore the fact, it is a race issue.
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763112]Whoa whoa whoa, you're telling me things in DIFFERENT CONTEXTS may seem better than when they are said in OTHER CONTEXTS? Holy shit man you're blowing my mind.
It's almost like you ignored when I said in like the very first post in this argument that the phrase in and of itself isn't racist, it's how it is used to undermine and overshadow BLM.[/QUOTE]
But again, I don't see how it 'undermines' BLM.
If the implication is that black people's lives are not valued equally, then surely "all lives matter" is a statement in support of the goals of BLM, yes?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763132]But again, I don't see how it 'undermines' BLM.
If the implication is that black people's lives are not valued equally, then surely "all lives matter" is a statement in support of the goals of BLM, yes?[/QUOTE]
Are you just ignoring everything I'm saying. What you're doing is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALALALAALA"
I've explained this already, it is all about context.
All Lives Matter is like saying "Oh you crybabies, we ALL have problems!" When in reality, you don't all have problems. White people don't need to fear that they will be discriminated against by police, or anyone.
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763144]Are you just ignoring everything I'm saying. What you're doing is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALALALAALA"
I've explained this already, it is all about context.
All Lives Matter is like saying "Oh you crybabies, we ALL have problems!" When in reality, you don't all have problems. White people don't need to fear that they will be discriminated against by police, or anyone.[/QUOTE]
I am listening to you. I just disagree with your position.
You are tacking on so much subtext to the phrases "all lives matter" and "black lives matter". All I'm asking you to do is consider that maybe not everyone else reads as much into them as you do.
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763018]This post says it better than I could.
"Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-ass comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any![/QUOTE]
If this were to happen to me, I would respond with something like, "Fine, you're right, everyone should get their fair share. Now let's talk about why I'm not getting mine."
I would not get into a semantic argument over how they're not respecting my implicit "too."
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763160]I am listening to you. I just disagree with your position.
You are tacking on so much subtext to the phrases "all lives matter" and "black lives matter". All I'm asking you to do is consider that maybe not everyone else reads as much into them as you do.[/QUOTE]
If they aren't reading into the context then they aren't A) Willfully racist, they are B) Ignorant and should research the topic.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763117]Yes, people are not purely logical. But here, discussing the issue like reasonable and logical beings, I'm asking why I should differentiate between them.
Because he said it was racist to "preach 'all lives matter'". Clearly he thinks it isn't synonymous. And I still fail to understand why that is.[/QUOTE]
its logical to take into account peoples emotions
emotions are not always analogous to not being logical, its not a two way street but a plain
look, the two terms technically mean the same thing but one of them has the added subtext of "i dont care about your movement which is very clearly anti-racist", so according to his argument that makes anyone who says that racist
i dont know if id go that far, but i would definitely say its dumb/ignorant to say it and racist only at worst
[QUOTE=ImpSnob;49763179]If they aren't reading into the context then they aren't A) Willfully racist, they are B) Ignorant and should research the topic.[/QUOTE]
So if they choose not to talk as you do, they must be racist?
Doesn't that strike you as a little bit odd? To assume so much ill intent on so little?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763160]I am listening to you. I just disagree with your position.
You are tacking on so much subtext to the phrases "all lives matter" and "black lives matter". All I'm asking you to do is consider that maybe not everyone else reads as much into them as you do.[/QUOTE]
it's very obvious that nearly everyone reads into it as much as he does
it elicited immediate boos from Martin O'Malley when he said it, my activist friends can't keep themselves from immediately reacting to hearing it: it's not a matter of reading into it so much as hearing it as a hostile statement
[QUOTE=person11;49763190]its logical to take into account peoples emotions
emotions are not always analogous to not being logical, its not a two way street but a plain
look, the two terms technically mean the same thing but one of them has the added subtext of "i dont care about your movement which is very clearly anti-racist", so according to his argument that makes anyone who says that racist
i dont know if id go that far, but i would definitely say its dumb/ignorant to say it and racist only at worst[/QUOTE]
Really?
So if I say all lives matter, that [I]necessitates[/I] that I'm implying "i dont care about your movement which is very clearly anti-racist"?
There's no way I can say it without implying that?
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49763197]So if they choose not to talk as you do, they must be racist?
Doesn't that strike you as a little bit odd? To assume so much ill intent on so little?[/QUOTE]
I'm done. Neither of us are changing either's view. You clearly can't understand why context is so important to this. It's more than a phrase, they are movements.
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