Keep in mind that bb is different from airsoft - metal bbs can definitely cause serious bodily harm or death. There's no way they'd puncture body armour designed to protect from bullets but to unprotected skin some of them can really fuck you up.
Things like the umarex steel force can fire steel bbs in bursts of 6 and have 300 shots on the gun and all the shots will pierce metal even. If it was actually a pellet gun which is often confused with bb guns pellets can often actually pierce through a layer of denim, metal, and then into meat fairly deep so honestly bb gun or not the weapon could have been quite dangerous.
[QUOTE=Niklas;48103658]Warning shots and shooting to wound, preferably in the leg, is common in germany ( and probably other european countries ), but considering how easy it is to get a gun in the US that's not a fair comparison.[/QUOTE]
And America has a much larger population at about 4.5 times the people.
[QUOTE=Elspin;48103792]Keep in mind that bb is different from airsoft - metal bbs can definitely cause serious bodily harm or death. There's no way they'd puncture body armour designed to protect from bullets but to unprotected skin some of them can really fuck you up.
Things like the umarex steel force can fire steel bbs in bursts of 6 and have 300 shots on the gun and all the shots will pierce metal even. If it was actually a pellet gun which is often confused with bb guns pellets can often actually pierce through a layer of denim, metal, and then into meat fairly deep so honestly bb gun or not the weapon could have been quite dangerous.[/QUOTE]
Even so pulling out a weapon of ANY kind when you are being escorted or detained by police is a death wish like the video shows
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48103795]Even so pulling out a weapon of ANY kind when you are being escorted or detained by police is a death wish like the video shows[/QUOTE]
I know? My point was that it might not have been a harmless gun anyway, they had right to be concerned even if they knew it was a bb gun. Some people are probably going to be saying that it's a harmless "air gun" unaware that the bb and pellet variety can be pretty dangerous, although I'm sure the gun enthusiasts here at least are well aware
[QUOTE=Mingebox;48103640]Pretty sure it's "shoot to stop", not "shoot to kill."[/QUOTE]
Not sure if you know this but bullets aren't this magical thing that instantly cause someone to drop to the ground when they get hit. Until the guy is completely incapacitated, he can still fuck you up with the gun in his hands. You don't take any chances, so you keep shooting until he's completely still.
Death is simply an unfortunate side effect of incapacitation.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48103785]No it's usually when taking out a weapon and aiming it, the objective is to kill. Stopping generally implies to kill, that is how you stop something from being a threat.[/QUOTE]
I've always heard it "shoot to neutralize/stop" not "kill". Might be almost splitting hairs, but killing is a probable result of the means, not the end.
Why would you ever make a move like that? You would have to be a very quick and experienced shooter in his position to do something like that before they shoot you. (And to kill someone with an airsoft gun.. too impractical, it would too many pellets.)
Now come to think of it, what would be your strategy in an attempt to evade these two cops?
[QUOTE=Mingebox;48103918]I've always heard it "shoot to neutralize/stop" not "kill". Might be almost splitting hairs, but killing is a probable result of the means, not the end.[/QUOTE]
shoot to kill might be a graze shot with a .22 that gets infected a week later. it's not like in movies andjvideo games where getting shot 2 or 3 times is guaranteed to put you on the ground
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;48103976]Why would you ever make a move like that? You would have to be a very quick and experienced shooter in his position to do something like that before they shoot you. (And to kill someone with an airsoft gun.. too impractical, it would too many pellets.)
Now come to think of it, what would be your strategy in an attempt to evade these two cops?[/QUOTE]
Like many others on the thread said, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop"]suicide by cop.[/URL]
[QUOTE=Mingebox;48103918]I've always heard it "shoot to neutralize/stop" not "kill". Might be almost splitting hairs, but killing is a probable result of the means, not the end.[/QUOTE]
Force continuum - a standard that provides law enforcement officers and civilians with guidelines as to how much force may be used against a resisting subject in a given situation, meaning; if someone draws a weapon to use it against you, you must use an equal or greater amount of force to stop the threat. Unfortunately, this means death or severe bodily harm.
I was taught, and new LEOs are taught, that you shoot to neutralize the threat. If you are shooting them with a handgun, that means to kill. If you draw your weapon, that means you are in a situation where the force needed to meet and stop the threat is death. Not really any other way to go about it.
This is also why I was earlier criticizing the female officer for drawing her tazer. You don't combat bullets with tazer prongs.
[QUOTE=Raptors!;48103191]
It's really hard to say for sure, but I think if Green didn't shoot the guy, she would have successfully tazed him before he got the gun (real or not) on her.
That being said, I think Green acted appropriately. It's sad to see a life go, but it's what had to be done in that situation. I don't expect them to take chances when their own life is on the line.[/QUOTE]
Tazing someone with a gun seems like a really bad idea, especially if they're aiming at someone.
Also it's hilarious how many people in this thread thing you shoot to wound, there is no firearms trainer in the world that will tell you to not shoot to kill.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;48103918]I've always heard it "shoot to neutralize/stop" not "kill". Might be almost splitting hairs, but killing is a probable result of the means, not the end.[/QUOTE]
That's the press friendly way of saying it, you shoot until they stop moving.
I must admit I was skeptical at first on how well they could implement body cam systems but overall they seem to be doing a good job.
What's with the weird flashing thing on the officers gun?
[QUOTE=halflambada;48104454]What's with the weird flashing thing on the officers gun?[/QUOTE]
LED flashlight. the cameras shutter causes it to look like its flashing.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48104162]Tazing someone with a gun seems like a really bad idea, especially if they're aiming at someone.
Also it's hilarious how many people in this thread thing you shoot to wound, there is no firearms trainer in the world that will tell you to not shoot to kill.
That's the press friendly way of saying it, you shoot until they stop moving.[/QUOTE]
it's not until they stop moving, it's until they stop being a threat. that just so happens to be when they stop moving.
It was a shitty situation but I'm glad there's video that shows the public what these people have to deal with on a daily basis.
I can understand where people are coming from when the say they shot quite a lot but if I was in the situation and was shooting I would be shooting to kill, my life would be coming first if I saw he had a gun.
Thats if I didn't freeze up and shit my self, Jeez.
Is there any chance of body cameras becoming more mainstream, and perhaps mandatory? Body cameras seem to be very useful, and well worth the investment. As this footage shows, it would probably even prevent a few headaches whenever cops have to use lethal force.
Also going to mention that getting shot nearly anywhere is risky to your life, the only places that dont really carry a chance of death are the hands and feet.
[QUOTE=mecaguy03;48104824]Also going to mention that getting shot nearly anywhere is risky to your life, the only places that dont really carry a chance of death are the hands and feet.[/QUOTE] Still got the radial and dorsalis pedis arteries however, so even there is a chance.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;48103640]Pretty sure it's "shoot to stop", not "shoot to kill."[/QUOTE]
No. When a cop pulls the gun and tells you to drop your weapon, you drop it or they shoot to kill. A wounding shot can miss, a warning shot can hit a pedestrian.
Center mass and fire till the target is not a danger. That's why when a cop pulls a gun, things have gone from bad to horrible.
[QUOTE=butre;48104485]it's not until they stop moving, it's until they stop being a threat. that just so happens to be when they stop moving.[/QUOTE]
Fine, incapable of moving then :v:
[QUOTE=Raptors!;48103191]From what I read that dude recently moved there after a nasty divorce and lived with his brother, sounds more and more like suicide.
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
It's really hard to say for sure, but I think if Green didn't shoot the guy, she would have successfully tazed him before he got the gun (real or not) on her.
That being said, I think Green acted appropriately. It's sad to see a life go, but it's what had to be done in that situation. I don't expect them to take chances when their own life is on the line.[/QUOTE]
she see's suspicious body movement, thinking he would go for his wallet and do something stupid - you can hear her start to say "don't do anything..." and she pulls her tazer. then she see's he pulls out a (bb) gun and yells gun because her partner might have not seen, which is when she instinctively shoots with whatever is in her hands - the tazer - and when she realizes this she holsters it, and takes out her gun.
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
also notice that green pushes a knife on the table away from the edge and looks back and watches the guy move past it.
[QUOTE=BlackBirdNL;48102855]People don't think, they panic.
As for the video, those were a lot of shots. We're taught to shoot till effective, not when someones already on the ground [/QUOTE]
Please, tell me more about your police department that apparently teaches to draw a gun without the intent to kill. Because that's pretty much the exact opposite of what every organization that handles firearms says ever.
[QUOTE=Crimor;48105488]Fine, incapable of moving then :v:[/QUOTE]
the wording is important. different wordings show different intents. there's no intent to kill, just an intent to stay alive
A lot of people are saying that too much force was used, but if you ask me, as soon as you pull what appears to be a deadly weapon on a cop you've signed your life away. Sucks that someone died, but what did you expect would happen pulling what looks like a gun on two armed cops? Either he was trying to suicide-by-cop (dumb) or he thought he could bluff his way out of it. (monumentally dumb)
[QUOTE=Coridan;48103172]Yep, she was much slower. The female officer took the time to: scream GUN GUN GUN, draw her tazer, holster her tazer and then finally draw her firearm in the time it took for the male officer to just unholster and shoot him.
If it had been only her (and a real gun) she might have gotten killed.
Goes to show you better know your duty belt, and know what you're going to pull for what kind of situation. Fractions of a second mean life or death.
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
l337[/QUOTE]
Apparently her taser was already drawn before she saw the gun, so she had to put away the taser and put draw her gun first, while her partner was in a position to more quickly respond.
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=ac/14;48104464]LED flashlight. the cameras shutter causes it to look like its flashing.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it might be a strobe. I have a flashlight designed to strobe people and it looks a lot like that on camera.
[url]https://youtu.be/yB6MI4L1JAE?t=23m47s[/url]
You can see it in that video. (Not me.)
I know they had to shoot to kill, but I'll just never get used to a those extra gunshots - I just hope we'll have a better alternative to lethal force somewhere in the future.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;48103139]Well, her buddy was nearby, you wouldn't want to have a blue on blue incident do you?[/QUOTE]
He was nearby, but not in her way. If this wasn't a tragic suicide by cop, I think the other officer would have gotten shot before she would have been able to respond. I'm going to point to the elephant in the room, but she looks kind of fat and unfit to be a cop.
The shots on the suspect when he was on the ground were totally justified, he was still conscious, moving and could have fired his weapon at the officers. People are acting like the lady officer went up, put one in his head while he was one the ground and executed him after the fact.
Some of you guys are fucking ridiculous and obviously know nothing about the real world.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;48105779]Apparently her taser was already drawn before she saw the gun, so she had to put away the taser and put draw her gun first, while her partner was in a position to more quickly respond.
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
Actually, it might be a strobe. I have a flashlight designed to strobe people and it looks a lot like that on camera.
[url]https://youtu.be/yB6MI4L1JAE?t=23m47s[/url]
You can see it in that video. (Not me.)[/QUOTE]
yes, it's a strobelight so that it's both easier to see during night time as well as disorient people.
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