• Lenient gun control leads to greater homicide rates.
    400 replies, posted
[QUOTE=galenmarek;38402309]You can kill. You would not argue with someone with a knife to your throat and don't even think of saying otherwise.[/QUOTE] Gun crime is still reduced however.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402388]Gun crime is still reduced however.[/QUOTE] So moving the crime from gun crime to other type of crime magically makes it better?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402319]Because Japan has very low violence rates. Just because it has low rates doesn't mean they are eliminated entirely. Illegal guns have to come from somewhere however (legitimate manufacturers).[/QUOTE] There is plenty of violence in Japan. The Yakuza are a real and present problem there. Clearly you also underestimate people's love for homemade firearms. Also you underestimate where some are willing to go to get these guns. There are plenty of Norinco and Soviet bloc AKs that don't reach these shores legitimately. Should we ban all Russian and Chinese guns? Don't assume all these guns are from America. Once again try to attempt to explain why Hong Kong has plenty of more crime when their laws are even more strict then most countries combined.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402346]But it makes it harder.[/QUOTE] For everyone to get guns. Let's look at some numbers. Say there are 10,000 people who want to get guns. 10 of these people are likely to murder someone with their gun sometime in the near future. So let's assume gun laws are lax and all 10,000 get their guns. That includes the 10 murderers. Now, let's tighten down gun laws. The same 10,000 people apply, but this time only 6000 of them get their guns. Assuming equal chances per person, that leaves 6 murderers left in the queue. But 3,996 responsible gun owners don't get their guns anymore. And if chances aren't equal, there's still the chance that the original 10 murders can still get their guns from a queue of 6000 people. How much of a positive impact does this approach [I]​really[/I] have?
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38402314]Ballistic Knife. Now what?[/QUOTE] Do they exist? [QUOTE=DaCommie1;38402314]In the technical aspect of the term, but not in the cultural aspect of the term. This assertion implies it applies to the cultural aspect as well, which is false and slanderous.[/QUOTE] The criminal aspect can indeed be applied to the cultural one too. [QUOTE=DaCommie1;38402314]You can't rob somebody from a considerably distance away either, it's generally done from a distance of a few feet.[/QUOTE] Except there are no longer any guns involved.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402388]Gun crime is still reduced however.[/QUOTE] Now you have more sliced up corpses instead of bullet ridden corpses. How does this help your case in any concievable way. Also yes ballistic knives do exist and aren't as hard to come by as you may think.
[QUOTE=galenmarek;38402432]Now you have more sliced up corpses instead of bullet ridden corpses. How does this help your case in any concievable way.[/QUOTE] There's less of them.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402420]Do they exist?[/QUOTE] Congratulations, you just proved you have no knowledge on the subject at hand. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402420]Except there are no longer any guns involved.[/QUOTE] How is a robbery at knife point better than a robbery at gunpoint!?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402434]There's less of them.[/QUOTE] Hong Kong BEGS to differ.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402420]Do they exist?[/QUOTE] Wow. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402420]Except there are no longer any guns involved.[/QUOTE] How is that in any way better?
[QUOTE=galenmarek;38402444]Hong Kong BEGS to differ.[/QUOTE] The OP makes a different argument however, in that more lenient gun control laws actually leads to more dead people. [editline]11th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Protocol7;38402439]Congratulations, you just proved you have no knowledge on the subject at hand.[/QUOTE] I don't think many people use them however, hence them existing in any significant number.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402465]The OP makes a different argument however, in that more lenient gun control laws actually leads to more dead people.[/QUOTE] This case proves your arguement false. Hong Kong has some of the strictest gun control laws on Earth. "I don't think many people use them however, hence them existing in any significant number." Enough to make it a problem and outlaw their sale. Or do you think Call of Duty just made them up?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402420]Do they exist?[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_knife[/url] Yes [quote]The criminal aspect can indeed be applied to the cultural one too.[/quote] This assertion shows that you know absolutely nothing about gun culture. Every single law abiding gun owner will be disgusted if you try to call them a criminal simply because they own a gun. [quote]Except there are no longer any guns involved.[/QUOTE] And the idea that you can somehow effectively separate gun violence and violent crime is ridiculous. If gun crime and knife crime are both theoretically at the same levels prior to gun control legislation, and they enact gun control, and it goes down by half, but knife crime triples, is the society safer? No, it's not. Gun violence is one small aspect of violent crime overall, and for an effective analysis of the safety of a particular place, you cannot look only at the levels of gun violence, you must look at the levels of violent crime overall, or you will never get an effective answer as to the safety of the society. It doesn't matter if a gun is no longer involved in the mugging, the mugging still occurred, and thus society is still not safe from the threat of being mugged just because the mugger used a knife and not a gun. The idea that you can separate gun violence and violent crime is both false and selective data manipulation, often those propagating gun control will ignore all other aspects of violent crime in a nation to try and support gun control, but you can't, as ultimately gun control is meant to reduce violent crime overall, of which gun crime is a small portion.
[QUOTE=galenmarek;38402486]This case proves your arguement false. Hong Kong has some of the strictest gun control laws on Earth.[/QUOTE] Not at all, if gun laws were made more lenient in Hong Kong, then it would lead to an increase in the number of homicides.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402518]Not at all, if gun laws were made more lenient in Hong Kong, then it would lead to an increase in the number of homicides.[/QUOTE] And how exactly do you know this to be true? The black market for guns in Hong Kong is huge, and that's what gun control does.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402518]Not at all, if gun laws were made more lenient in Hong Kong, then it would lead to an increase in the number of homicides.[/QUOTE] Way to ignore all the evidence posted! Good job! Time to abandon thread.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402518]Not at all, if gun laws were made more lenient in Hong Kong, then it would lead to an increase in the number of homicides.[/QUOTE] You insult me. The laws were made STRICTER and the crime rates are still rising every single day. This shows your arguement to be false.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402518]Not at all, if gun laws were made more lenient in Hong Kong, then it would lead to an increase in the number of homicides.[/QUOTE] I'm going to need a source, study and actual evidence on that.
[QUOTE=galenmarek;38402540]You insult me. The laws were made STRICTER and the crime rates are still rising every single day. This shows your arguement to be false.[/QUOTE] Do you have the statistics to show that this is the case?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402556]Do you have the statistics to show that this is the case?[/QUOTE] Do you speak Cantonese?
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;38402517]This assertion shows that you know absolutely nothing about gun culture. Every single law abiding gun owner will be disgusted if you try to call them a criminal simply because they own a gun.[/QUOTE] Except in some cases they are criminals or become ones.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402556]Do you have the statistics to show that this is the case?[/QUOTE] Do you have any statistics which show us that loose gun laws equal to more homicides? The OP is not a good source due to the areas shown are ridden with social and educational problems. We have shown you a source for our argument from healthy areas which show that your argument is not correct and if anything its harmful to ordinary citizens but yet you choose to ignore it. Way to fucking go, mate.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402556]Do you have the statistics to show that this is the case?[/QUOTE] Do you have statistics to prove that this assertion would be valid?: [QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402518]Not at all, if gun laws were made more lenient in Hong Kong, then it would lead to an increase in the number of homicides.[/QUOTE] You don't, you can't, there is no correlation between availability of guns and homicide levels, I already tackled that in my first post in this thread, which if you'd stop being so ignorant and assuming it's all from one author you think is biased, when in reality none of it was, you'd see that there are more guns in America than ever before, yet less homicide, completely shattering this assertion.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402577]Except in some cases they are criminals or become ones.[/QUOTE] Am I reading what I think I'm reading? Gun owners [B]become[/B] criminals because they own guns?
Again, it is not just the gun laws. Look at the most crime ridden state, Illinois. There, the gun laws are severely strict. However, it also has some of the poorest families, lowest incomes, least funded public schools and some of the largest unemployment rates in the entire nation. Guns themselves have absolutely nothing to do with the crime, but instead, it's the situation around it. [editline]10th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402577]Except in some cases they are criminals or become ones.[/QUOTE] I need sources.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;38402591]Am I reading what I think I'm reading? Gun owners [B]become[/B] criminals because they own guns?[/QUOTE] Not at all. Some eventually do turn to crime, and in some cases, lenient gun laws may incline them to commit criminals acts.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402614]Not at all. Some eventually do turn to crime, and in some cases, lenient gun laws may incline them to commit criminals acts.[/QUOTE] Thats a pretty big assumption, any statistics or studies to back that up?
Aaaand then he ignores my posts. Yay. Great debate right here.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402614]Not at all. Some eventually do turn to crime, and in some cases, lenient gun laws may incline them to commit criminals acts.[/QUOTE] Are you implying that simply having a gun will make people more inclined to do something illegal? For someone who loves proof to back something up do you mind giving us a citation on that?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402614]Not at all. Some eventually do turn to crime, and in some cases, lenient gun laws may incline them to commit criminals acts.[/QUOTE] Please give us sources. We can't argue unless you present your own.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.