• Lenient gun control leads to greater homicide rates.
    400 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402577]Except in some cases they are criminals or become ones.[/QUOTE] And the cases of such are so incredibly rare it is actually not statistically significant in the overall scheme of crime, and not worth mentioning in an argument due to its actual rarity. It is such a rare occurrence, StatsCan has not yet bothered to collect data on the licensed status of "gun criminals," because they are almost never going to actually have one. Since 1995, only 1 murder in Toronto has been committed by a licensed gun owner, and there have been over 1500 murders just in Toronto since 1995, the year gun control in Canada was enacted. Even mass shootings are a mere anecdote in the overall levels of homicide or gun crime, no matter what nation they occur in.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402614]Not at all. Some eventually do turn to crime, and in some cases, lenient gun laws may incline them to commit criminals acts.[/QUOTE] ...How If you kill someone, you get arrested. That's how that works. If gun laws are lenient, more people get guns, that's all.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402185]Yes, but robbing somebody with a knife is more difficult than with a gun.[/QUOTE] no it isn't, that's stupid
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402185] Yes, but robbing somebody with a knife is more difficult than with a gun.[/QUOTE] You can take a gun out of someones hand quite easily, people can miss, the gun could malfunction, they may not even have the gun loaded, but instead just have it out to scare them. You don't easily disarm someone with a blade, you will get hurt.
forget everything that has been said so far and listen to this one thing murder is already illegal. that hasn't put a dent on murder rates. If you're going to kill someone, guns being illegal is the last thing that might stop you [editline]10th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;38402672]You can take a gun out of someones hand quite easily, people can miss, the gun could malfunction, they may not even have the gun loaded, but instead just have it out to scare them. You don't easily disarm someone with a blade, you will get hurt.[/QUOTE] disarming someone with a pistol (who hasn't been trained in weapon retention) is generally very easy. It's next to impossible to disarm someone who has a knife.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38402679]forget everything that has been said so far and listen to this one thing murder is already illegal. that hasn't put a dent on murder rates. If you're going to kill someone, guns being illegal is the last thing that might stop you[/QUOTE] and you would think murder being illegal is a huge enough deterrence. hence why people who murder aren't usually fully functioning people
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38402679]disarming someone with a pistol (who hasn't been trained in weapon retention) is generally very easy. It's next to impossible to disarm someone who has a knife.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say next to impossible, few of my friends to some serious martial arts shenanigans and we've had some fun with rubber knives. But you will 99% end up with a few cuts on your arms when you try it and its definetly [B]A LOT[/B] harder than disarming someone with a gun.
Strong laws won't deter people from buying a gun. There are heavy restrictions on class III weapons, and the result is that it's literally easier to buy it illegally than it is to buy one legally. For awhile you could actually purchase illegal weapons online, google 'Silk Road Armory'. I went on a long time ago because I was curious and I saw things like empty grenade shells and a belt-fed M4 for sale. You could also just find someone on the streets willing to sell it for a much lower price than that of a legal weapon, and you wouldn't have to go through paperwork or have it linked to you through registation. It could be just a matter of driving to the nearest high-crime area, looking for a group of people with the same color clothes and bandanas and asking if they know where to cop a gat. (Just so I don't have SWAT teams ransacking my place, I've never purchased or attempted to purchase anything illegally and I never intend to. If I were a criminal I wouldn't be posting about it online.) Crime in a country depends entirely on culture and poverty, and the resulting criminal activity is what creates the demand for firearms. Stricter laws don't reduce the availability of weapons to criminals, they only move the market underground so violent cartels will sell them instead of legitimate shops. Laws would only make them unavailable to people who would buy them for lawful uses like self defense. The same exact concept applies to the prohibition of alcohol and drugs.
[QUOTE=Robbi;38402717]I wouldn't say next to impossible, few of my friends to some serious martial arts shenanigans and we've had some fun with rubber knives. But you will 99% end up with a few cuts on your arms when you try it and its definetly [B]A LOT[/B] harder than disarming someone with a gun.[/QUOTe] Those fancy little marker fights are fun. See if you can spar with someone with a marker simulating a knife, and if you get marked you'll see how easily someone with a knife can wound you in a fight.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38402679] disarming someone with a pistol (who hasn't been trained in weapon retention) is generally very easy. It's next to impossible to disarm someone who has a knife.[/QUOTE] Most people who use a gun to rob someone tend to be afraid or nervous. A person using a knife tends to be much much more determined.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;38402760]Most people who use a gun to rob someone tend to be afraid or nervous. A person using a knife tends to be much much more determined.[/QUOTE] Not to mention many people find having being stabbed more intimidating then being shot.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;38402760]Most people who use a gun to rob someone tend to be afraid or nervous. A person using a knife tends to be much much more determined.[/QUOTE] If that is the case, won't nervous and/or afraid people be deterred from committing robberies?
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;38402760]Most people who use a gun to rob someone tend to be afraid or nervous. A person using a knife tends to be much much more determined.[/QUOTE] Please show us this treasure trove of a source you have for all this
[QUOTE=Protocol7;38402749]Those fancy little marker fights are fun. See if you can spar with someone with a marker simulating a knife, and if you get marked you'll see how easily someone with a knife can wound you in a fight.[/QUOTE] Haha yeah, also if you are wielding a small knife the only thing exposed will be the blade making it guaranteed that if you grab the hand (which I think its done like?) the attacker can easily jab it upwards into your hand and if the knife is sharp can severely damage the pulse (I think its called that in English, the little bump on the bottom of your arm). Also we are missing the whole point that if there are more loose gun laws the defender is more likely to be carrying a defensive weapon deterring most attackers. But oh hey, OP will just ignore this and not change his view. Why start a debate thread if you are so set on one opinion? We have bias news sites to spread propaganda.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;38402784]Please show us this treasure trove of a source you have for all this[/QUOTE] Once Sobotnik shows us his hidden cove of sources for his assertions that all gun owners are criminals in waiting, among his other nonsensical assertions.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402782]If that is the case, won't nervous and/or afraid people be deterred from committing robberies?[/QUOTE] Desperate people do desperate things.
[QUOTE=Onion836;38402723]Strong laws won't deter people from buying a gun. There are heavy restrictions on class III weapons, and the result is that it's literally easier to buy it illegally than it is to buy one legally. For awhile you could actually purchase illegal weapons online, google 'Silk Road Armory'. I went on a long time ago because I was curious and I saw things like empty grenade shells and a belt-fed M4 for sale. You could also just find someone on the streets willing to sell it for a much lower price than that of a legal weapon, and you wouldn't have to go through paperwork or have it linked to you through registation. It could be just a matter of driving to the nearest high-crime area, looking for a group of people with the same color clothes and bandanas and asking if they know where to cop a gat.[/QUOTE] on that note, I would have an easier time taking some bits of pipe and welding them into a fully automatic weapon than I would getting one legally. $150 for a dremel and a welding kit online, drain pipe for next to nothing from the local hardware store. Any idiot who can get that can build an illegal automatic weapon in a matter of hours. To get one legally requires a $200 tax stamp, no less than $6000 (and usually closer to $15,000) for the gun itself, a write off from the local law enforcement agency (which they are not legally obliged to give, and many will just ignore your request), at least 6 months wait time for your ATF letter, and then you can't shoot it anywhere except designated machine gun shoots which might happen a total of 5 times a year throughout the entire country or on your own property if it's outside city limits and big enough for you to actually shoot from.
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38402837]on that note, I would have an easier time taking some bits of pipe and welding them into a fully automatic weapon than I would getting one legally.[/QUOTE] Where would you get bullets from?
[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;38402837]on that note, I would have an easier time taking some bits of pipe and welding them into a fully automatic weapon than I would getting one legally. $150 for a dremel and a welding kit online, drain pipe for next to nothing from the local hardware store. Any idiot who can get that can build an illegal automatic weapon in a matter of hours. To get one legally requires a $200 tax stamp, no less than $6000 (and usually closer to $15,000) for the gun itself, a write off from the local law enforcement agency (which they are not legally obliged to give, and many will just ignore your request), at least 6 months wait time for your ATF letter, and then you can't shoot it anywhere except designated machine gun shoots which might happen a total of 5 times a year throughout the entire country or on your own property if it's outside city limits and big enough for you to actually shoot from.[/QUOTE] it's not very hard to build a gun. Anyone with any shop training and even a basic knowledge of how firearms work could easily make something like a bolt-action rifle or even a single shot rifle. The difference being the one-off nature of these homemade guns. Real firearms are (usually) built for durability - someone who builds a gun knows they'll be pissing in front of 10 other guys for the rest of their life, whether they're aware of it or not
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402859]Where would you get bullets from?[/QUOTE] Make them?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402859]Where would you get bullets from?[/QUOTE] ...You don't need a gun to buy ammunition
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402859]Where would you get bullets from?[/QUOTE] Look at the Minié ball. It was just a wedge of lead with a concave end that allowed powder to be packed behind it. The resulting pressure from the exploding powder would send the bullet out, and if there was some rifling, spin as it left the barrel. That bullet killed around 400,000 Americans in the Civil War.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;38402873]...You don't need a gun to buy ammunition[/QUOTE] If guns were hard enough to get to the point you built a flimsy one yourself that would probably jam, how the hell are you going to get a sufficient supply of bullets for it?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402859]Where would you get bullets from?[/QUOTE] If you seriously think it's hard to make and use a firearm just ask the Chechnyans to prove you wrong. "If guns were hard enough to get to the point you built a flimsy one yourself that would probably jam, how the hell are you going to get a sufficient supply of bullets for it?" Don't presume to think all homemade firearms are flimsy and jam often. Or do you think everyone is a fool and making a gun and ammo for it is impossible.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402859]Where would you get bullets from?[/QUOTE] a pawn shop, wal mart, sporting goods store etc.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402929]If guns were hard enough to get to the point you built a flimsy one yourself that would probably jam, how the hell are you going to get a sufficient supply of bullets for it?[/QUOTE] OK this is an entirely stupid tangent altogether because a fair share of gun violence is one on one crime, so you don't need fully automatic weapons or anything that cycles itself. Building guns is possible, they won't last very long but they can serve their intended purpose.
making guns illegal means no one will kill with guns in the same way making weed illegal means no one smokes weed
[QUOTE=galenmarek;38402932]If you seriously think it's hard to make and use a firearm just ask the Chechnyans to prove you wrong.[/QUOTE] Except one made using machine tools by a professional doesn't tend to be unreliable.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402929]If guns were hard enough to get to the point you built a flimsy one yourself that would probably jam, how the hell are you going to get a sufficient supply of bullets for it?[/QUOTE] A simple steel tube with a hole in the end, gunpowder and an iron ball is not hard to make, it won't jam either.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;38402929]If guns were hard enough to get to the point you built a flimsy one yourself that would probably jam, how the hell are you going to get a sufficient supply of bullets for it?[/QUOTE] I'm talking about automatic weapons, which actually are that hard to get. no shortage of bullets here and it wouldn't be shit, it would basically be the same design as a sten
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