[QUOTE=thrawn2787;49903348]
tl;dr Rey had to win for some reason (stronk womens) and they wanted poetry yet they needed a plot device to explain why Luke failed / is missing. But they tried to combine these things and they contradict each other.[/QUOTE]
They spend the entire movie establishing that Chewie's bowcaster fucks people up real good.
It hits a Stormtrooper in the breadbasket and sends him FLYING into a wall, shattering his armor.
Ren had nothing but robes and took a shot right in the kidney, then caught up to our two fleeing protagonists on foot, and fought two opponents (one of whom was a trained former Stormtrooper, the other is a skilled melee fighter who survived in solitude on a hostile desert world with no weapon other than a stick who also is Force adept) to a stand-still.
He didn't get beaten by her, the ground opened up and let her get away after she got a decent, non-fatal shot in.
This whole time, he's reeling from the fact that [sp]he just killed his dad[/sp], his bosses are totally judging him, and his new toy is under attack.
There was a lot going on and it's totally reasonable that he didn't completely stomp everyone.
Chalking the fact that he fails to "stronk womyn" is just a result of not really paying attention to what's happening in the scene.
Might as well say A New Hope ruined Darth Vader because Han buzzes him in the Falcon and sends him spinning off into space; no reason a Sith lord who's such a talented pilot should be bested that easily, right?
[QUOTE=The Pretender;49903613]I agree with this one. Useless and really annoying character. Hopefully won't make a return in the next movies.[/QUOTE]
Boy oh boy you won't be happy then
[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;49903586][sp]
-People totally cared that shit got blown up. Literally the biggest governing body in the galaxy, the source of order and justice for the past 30 years, was completely destroyed. Alderaan times a dozen.
-Finn was out to rescue Rey, so he totally took it seriously. There was levity and jokes, but it's Star Wars, that's what you get. I agree that Starkiller Base didn't have nearly the same gravitas as either Death Star though.
[/sp][/QUOTE]
Feel like you missed my points here, allow me to reiterate:
- The film didn't convey that anyone cared. In IV we see Leia and Ben being sad about the loss of Alderaan, we also knew that Leia was from Alderaan so she has reason to be sad. In TFA we don't really see anyone being sad afterwards, no emotion impact on the characters of the audience. Characters caring "off screen" means they don't care at all. Much like some EU material explaining something wrong with the film away. If it didn't happen on screen it didn't happen as far as the viewer is concerned.
- He took rescuing Rey seriously but not the actual mission (saving the Galaxy / Resistance and blowing up the thing).
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=bdd458;49903623]Boy oh boy you won't be happy then[/QUOTE]
Fuck, really? Even JJ wasn't happy with Maz, or at least her actress. I have a feeling he knew the character just didn't work though.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;49903348]He literally [sp]killed every Jedi Luke trained besides Rey[/sp]. He clearly has not only skill but experience. The incomplete training stuff is 1) a bad excuse and 2) a bullshit throwback ("poetry") to the Emperor/Vader always going on and on about training.
You can't have him be beaten by a nobody who hasn't done anything in 15 years (Rey) and have his day job be killing people with his sword / the force.
tl;dr Rey had to win for some reason (stronk womens) and they wanted poetry yet they needed a plot device to explain why Luke failed / is missing. But they tried to combine these things and they contradict each other.
[/QUOTE]
didnt the [sp]knights of ren or whatever[/sp] do that? weren't there like 6 of them
also he was fucked up after [sp]killing his dad and getting shot by a weapon (bowcaster) they spend like 5 really obvious scenes showing is powerful as fuck and even show pretty heavy bleeding, which you know is pretty crazy because fucking star wars showed a dude bleeding [/sp]
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;49903691]Feel like you missed my points here, allow me to reiterate:
- The film didn't convey that anyone cared. In IV we see Leia and Ben being sad about the loss of Alderaan, we also knew that Leia was from Alderaan so she has reason to be sad. In TFA we don't really see anyone being sad afterwards, no emotion impact on the characters of the audience. Characters caring "off screen" means they don't care at all. Much like some EU material explaining something wrong with the film away. If it didn't happen on screen it didn't happen as far as the viewer is concerned.
- He took rescuing Rey seriously but not the actual mission (saving the Galaxy / Resistance and blowing up the thing).
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough.
I disagree, but I can at least see where you're coming from there.
I like how this trailer is pretty much entirely callbacks to old episodes
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;49902832][sp]- Mary Sue Rey (to get it out of the way). My main issue with her is how easily she beats Ren. It takes Luke three films to become a halfway competent Jedi, even then he only beats Vader when he gives in to the anger. Natural affinity with the force or no its apparently something that needs honing. Also she's never used a sword / saber before. So when she beats Ren this easily there's no payoff because there was no build up.[/sp][/quote]
[sp]Rey had been surviving on her own her entire life. Why is Finn's backstory a make or break deal for you, and Rey's isn't? Sure, you could say they only wrote her like that so they'd have a Mary Sue to work with, but the lone wanderer who learns a multitude of skills in order to survive is such a common archetype, why is it only a problem here? Why do we accept that Max from Mad Max can beat everyone up after years of living in a wasteland, despite having little to no formal training in hand to hand combat (other than "he was a cop a few decades ago"), but not Rey?[/sp]
[quote][sp]- Where did Finn, the storm trooper taken from his family before he had memories and given a number instead of a name, learn right from wrong? And if he felt so bad about his storm trooper friends dying why did he have zero qualms killing many of them later? That guy under that mask coulda been your bff. Shouldn't that give him some pause?[/sp][/quote]
[sp]And Episode 4 ends with everyone celebrating Luke's stormtrooper genocide. Some of them could've been forced to work for the Empire, some of them could've had families, shouldn't that give him some pause?[/sp]
[quote][sp]- Snoke is pointless. He's a big intergalatic baby sitter for when Hux and Ren get in a fight because these characters can't think for themselves.
- Snoke is unexplained. Its okay to have a mystery; but not when its a mystery to only the audience. Han and Leia knew who Snoke was.[/sp][/quote]
[sp]Vader went unexplained, so did the Emperor. Again, why is this a problem here and not in the originals? And "it's ok to have a mystery but not when it's only for the audience" - what kind of rule is this? Is Fight Club made worse by the fact Tyler Durden knew the twist from the start?[/sp]
[quote][sp]- Speaking of no impact all the heroes know they can win easily ("there's always a way to blow it up"). So no tension, great.[/sp][/quote]
[sp]You mean like when their initial plan actually fails?[/sp]
[quote][sp]- While it wasn't brought up in this movie it will be in future movies but I have this funny feeling Snoke will be retroactively important (eg he's Plageuis). Which is fucking dumb. You're in a sequel don't ruin the older movies by introducing new shit that was important behind the scenes of the old movies.[/sp][/quote]
What kind of criticism is this? "I bet they're going to do this and it's going to be SHIT" yeah ok
I watched the movie and can say that it was a pretty good action-adventure movie.
When comparing it to the original trilogy, it seems that Episode 7 is less story-driven and more action-oriented. I still enjoyed it.
The only problem was that I went to a theater that had those special SFX set-up and the seat would vibrate whenever there was an explosion. Only problem was that the seat would also vibrate if the soundtrack played a low, bass sound, and all I would hear is the vibrating seat. It nearly ruined the movie for me.
I feel like I needed to huff paint to kill off my brain cells in order to have had enjoyed the movie like some other people. But then being raised to listen to so much classical music as much an early age and the score one of the worst by john williams, I fell like it wouldn't work and I'd just be sad while I drooled in my near vegetable state.
[QUOTE=Ithon;49905476]I feel like I needed to huff paint to kill off my brain cells in order to have had enjoyed the movie like some other people. But then being raised to listen to so much classical music as much an early age and the score one of the worst by john williams, I fell like it wouldn't work and I'd just be sad while I drooled in my near vegetable state.[/QUOTE]
If you're gonna try being superior and stuff you could try and structure your sentences correctly. I had to reread that a couple times.
[QUOTE=Ithon;49905476]I feel like I needed to huff paint to kill off my brain cells in order to have had enjoyed the movie like some other people. But then being raised to listen to so much classical music as much an early age and the score one of the worst by john williams, I fell like it wouldn't work and I'd just be sad while I drooled in my near vegetable state.[/QUOTE]
Satire?
[QUOTE=Ithon;49905476]I feel like I needed to huff paint to kill off my brain cells in order to have had enjoyed the movie like some other people. But then being raised to listen to so much classical music as much an early age and the score one of the worst by john williams, I fell like it wouldn't work and I'd just be sad while I drooled in my near vegetable state.[/QUOTE]
I think you should at least learn the fundamentals of grammar before you start calling people stupid.
[QUOTE=Ithon;49905476]I feel like I needed to huff paint to kill off my brain cells in order to have had enjoyed the movie like some other people. But then being raised to listen to so much classical music as much an early age and the score one of the worst by john williams, I fell like it wouldn't work and I'd just be sad while I drooled in my near vegetable state.[/QUOTE]
Did you huff paint before posting this? You're right about the score being weak compared to the older ones but I wouldn't say it was bad, just a bit lacking.
[QUOTE=Ithon;49905476]I feel like I needed to huff paint to kill off my brain cells in order to have had enjoyed the movie like some other people. But then being raised to listen to so much classical music as much an early age and the score one of the worst by john williams, I fell like it wouldn't work and I'd just be sad while I drooled in my near vegetable state.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Wfb9jPr.png[/img]
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;49905320]Vader went unexplained, so did the Emperor. Again, why is this a problem here and not in the originals? And "it's ok to have a mystery but not when it's only for the audience" - what kind of rule is this? Is Fight Club made worse by the fact Tyler Durden knew the twist from the start?[/QUOTE]
Because those movies stood on their own. They were the first ones out. All Vader need to be was tall and imposing. All the Emperor needed to be was evil and twisted. We instantly know all we need to know about them.
Like the crawl in IV says there's Empire and Rebels. The next shot shows us the small blockade runner and the giant imposing Star Destoryer. We instantly know who is who without being told directly. And when we see Vader we know who he is too without being told directly. He's some special agent in the Empire and is big and scary. We're on the same page as Leia really; we know he's a big asshole. So they didn't go unexplained, just minimal explicit explanation + visual story telling.
But with Snoke we have 60 years of history within this universe that his presence fucks up. With Vader/Emperor we didn't so their back stories didn't matter. But Luke bringing balance to the force at the end of VI is apparently overridden with no explanation. If it was just Ren that went rouge and fucked it all up that would've explained it; but nothing explains Snoke. And again the characters in the universe know the explanation. But there's not anything for the audience (visual or directly) to explain anything.
Snoke warrants an explanation where the Emperor and Vader didn't. There's a big hole in the script.
Fair point about me ranting about what they could do with Snoke's explanation, but in my defense this was widley talked about / speculated about before release. There were several leaks that pointed to his identity as well.
Also other thing I forgot about (its been 3 months, give me a break) was how Rey and Han finished each others sentences. It works maybe once? But the three or four times they did it felt forced. Its like a gag or a joke that wasn't that funny the first time but happens a few more times in rapid succession. It doesn't feel right or natural. And its an [I]extremely [/I]lazy way of showing that Rey and Han get along / have a connection.
[QUOTE=nerdster409;49905400]I watched the movie and can say that it was a pretty good action-adventure movie.
When comparing it to the original trilogy, it seems that Episode 7 is less story-driven and more action-oriented. I still enjoyed it.
The only problem was that I went to a theater that had those special SFX set-up and the seat would vibrate whenever there was an explosion. Only problem was that the seat would also vibrate if the soundtrack played a low, bass sound, and all I would hear is the vibrating seat. It nearly ruined the movie for me.[/QUOTE]
It still suffers from the 'action sequences and battles don't actually push the plot forward' syndrome.
And don't get me started about the horrible camera work for the melee combat.
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[sp]Also the mary sueness of Rey is not an original trilogy issue as every character had their importance in the original trilogies. The mary sueness comes from the prequel trilogy and god damn Anakin.[/sp]
Anakin wasn't a Mary Sue in II and III. He was the opposite, a "bad apple from the start" (zero redeemable qualities and a giant asshole). So Anakin had the opposite issue as Rey.
But yeah in IV there weren't any Mary Sues.
why is it hard to accept Snoke's existence? we thought the threat of the Empire was done for after RotJ but the First Order rose up in its place.
[Sp]Likewise a new Sith Lord [edit: scratch that, just a Supreme Leader] has also risen, following after Palpatine to command the new enemy force. Some force-sensitive alien could totally have discovered the Dark Side and taken Palpy's place within 30 years. In fact, it could have been someone from Luke's training academy, someone Luke found to help train new Jedi but who turned against him by manipulating Ben/Kylo.[/sp]
It breaks the rule of two almost instantly.
What kind of name is Snoke anyway
they couldn't come up with ANYTHING that actually sounded threatening?
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;49903727]didnt the [sp]knights of ren or whatever[/sp] do that? weren't there like 6 of them
also he was fucked up after [sp]killing his dad and getting shot by a weapon (bowcaster) they spend like 5 really obvious scenes showing is powerful as fuck and even show pretty heavy bleeding, which you know is pretty crazy because fucking star wars showed a dude bleeding [/sp][/QUOTE]
There were like 7 of them but there were way more bodies on the ground. Plus if Ren was this much of a shit fighter then Luke could've taken him on no problem. Luke took on Vader and beat him without killing him, so I don't want to hear "b-b-but he didn't want to kill family" argument.
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=DChapsfield;49909721]why is it hard to accept Snoke's existence? we thought the threat of the Empire was done for after RotJ but the First Order rose up in its place.
[Sp]Likewise a new Sith Lord has also risen, following after Palpatine to command the new enemy force. Some force-sensitive alien could totally have discovered the Dark Side and taken Palpy's place within 30 years. In fact, it could have been someone from Luke's training academy, someone Luke found to help train new Jedi but who turned against him by manipulating Ben/Kylo.[/sp][/QUOTE]
All these explanations would be fine for Snoke but we have to have one. Even if the explanation is "he just showed up one day" we're still owed this explanation to account for whats happened.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49909694]It still suffers from the 'action sequences and battles don't actually push the plot forward' syndrome.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you're talking about because every action scene in Episode 7 served a purpose to either the plot or characterization.
[sp]The opening segment demonstrates the characters of Poe, Kylo, Phasma, Finn, and the First Order troopers.
The escape from the FO ship moves Poe and Finn onto Jakku. The escape from Jakku characterizes Finn and Rey and moves them off Jakku to run into Han. The Rathtar sequence establishes Han's character and moves the cast to Maz's place. The battle at Maz's develops Finn's character, reveals the strength of the Resistance, and puts Rey in the hands of Kylo. Her escape from containment develops her character and Kylo's. The infiltration of Starkiller Base moves the characters there and develops Rey's, Finn's, Kylo's, and Han's characters. The attack on the base is central to the resolution of the plot. The lightsaber duels between Kylo and Finn & Rey develops all of their characters and provides resolution to their subplots and developments.[/sp]
The only thing that didn't explicitly need to happen in order to move the plot along was the [sp]Rathtar incident. But even that established Han's character traits and progressed the relationship between Finn and Rey, as well as between Rey and Han.[/sp]
[editline]10th March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;49909736]All these explanations would be fine for Snoke but we have to have one. Even if the explanation is "he just showed up one day" we're still owed this explanation to account for whats happened.[/QUOTE]
This point i agree with you on. It's a little obnoxious how some important plot points were left for us to learn about in supporting material or sequels.
[QUOTE=DChapsfield;49909764]I'm not sure what you're talking about because every action scene in Episode 7 served a purpose to either the plot or characterization.
[sp]The opening segment demonstrates the characters of Poe, Kylo, Phasma, Finn, and the First Order troopers.
The escape from the FO ship moves Poe and Finn onto Jakku. The escape from Jakku characterizes Finn and Rey and moves them off Jakku to run into Han. The Rathtar sequence establishes Han's character and moves the cast to Maz's place. The battle at Maz's develops Finn's character, reveals the strength of the Resistance, and puts Rey in the hands of Kylo. Her escape from containment develops her character and Kylo's. The infiltration of Starkiller Base moves the characters there and develops Rey's, Finn's, Kylo's, and Han's characters. The attack on the base is central to the resolution of the plot. The lightsaber duels between Kylo and Finn & Rey develops all of their characters and provides resolution to their subplots and developments.[/sp]
The only thing that didn't explicitly need to happen in order to move the plot along was the [sp]Rathtar incident. But even that established Han's character traits and progressed the relationship between Finn and Rey, as well as between Rey and Han.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]What? None of the action nor battle scenes advanced the plot except for like two. The battles in particular were just wanky scenes of fluff that did nothing plus showed how little JJ knows about the Star Wars lore because if he knew enough he'd know that the fucking Rebellion made bombers specifically for the thing they hit with god damn X-Wings.[/sp]
edit snip nvm you said that
[QUOTE=Swilly;49909788][sp]What? None of the action nor battle scenes advanced the plot except for like two. The battles in particular were just wanky scenes of fluff that did nothing plus showed how little JJ knows about the Star Wars lore because if he knew enough he'd know that the fucking Rebellion made bombers specifically for the thing they hit with god damn X-Wings.[/sp][/QUOTE]
I don't think i could make it any clearer how each action sequence moved the plot. You do understand that moving characters in space, influencing characters' motivations, setting characters up to accomplish their goals, and putting characters into battle against one another and their enemies is advancing the plot, right?
i expect nothing less than a fucking demolition job that makes his prequel reviews look like they were made for kids. this deserves no mercy
[QUOTE=Ithon;49905476]I feel like I needed to huff paint to kill off my brain cells in order to have had enjoyed the movie like some other people. But then being raised to listen to so much classical music as much an early age and the score one of the worst by john williams, I fell like it wouldn't work and I'd just be sad while I drooled in my near vegetable state.[/QUOTE]
Can someone please screenshot this post and send it to me? I can't do it myself and I need it in case he deletes it
[QUOTE=DChapsfield;49909808]I don't think i could make it any clearer how each action sequence moved the plot. You do understand that moving characters in space, influencing characters' motivations, and putting characters into battle against one another is advancing the plot, right?[/QUOTE]
No, that really didn't...move the plot at all. Infact you could've removed the battle scenes and just had smaller skrimishes and you'd get the same results.
The massive battles were pointless but that's endemic to Star Wars in general.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49909841]No, that really didn't...move the plot at all. Infact you could've removed the battle scenes and just had smaller skrimishes and you'd get the same results.
The massive battles were pointless but that's endemic to Star Wars in general.[/QUOTE]
Are you telling me [sp]the Resistance could have had a 'small skirmish' on Starkiller Base and blown it to pieces? Or that a small squad of Stormtroopers could have totally destroyed Maz's hideout, killed nearly everyone, and captured Rey on their own? Or that the First Order would be dumb enough to send anything less than an aerial bombardment to Jakku to try to kill the defector with inside knowledge and the prized Resistance ace pilot that escaped?[/sp]
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