[QUOTE=Guardian-Angel;16782972]I find it hard to believe that a $1700 difference doesn't really mean much more than a brand name. Maybe if I heard more people than just you saying that.[/QUOTE]
They're made on original M14 machining equipment, and tons of Canadians say they're great.
If you don't believe me you can go ahead and try and research it, I really don't care, I don't own one and don't plan to ever own one.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;16782713]How do they differ then?
Yes it is, but that is specialized service rather than a standard issue rifle in military service. That is a mistake which is occasionally made. It is almost exclusively a special service weapon that is almost never used by the general armed forces. They also constantly forget just how limited the effective range is. There are submachineguns that can reach out to greater distances. It doesn't make the rifle suck, it limits it to the specialized circumstances under which it is meant to be used.[/QUOTE]
the manufacturing process is a bit different and some parts are different
[editline]01:01AM[/editline]
also yes Norinco M14s are better, mainly because they have a forged receiver as opposed to the cast Springfield one
[QUOTE=Guardian-Angel;16782972]I find it hard to believe that a $1700 difference doesn't really mean much more than a brand name. Maybe if I heard more people than just you saying that.[/QUOTE]
The receiver is more desirable, but the bolt needs to be replaced, it's too soft, which would cause excessive headspace. And a lot of other shit that is made wrong in the Norinco M14 has to be replaced.
The only thing desirable about the Norincos is the receiver. Nothing else. But it's still a good M14. If you get a Norinco M14, main thing to check for is the bolt and to make sure it isn't too soft or hard, and that the headspace is good.
A Garand with 20 round mags is a Beretta BM59, btw.
95)Beretta M12
[img]http://world.guns.ru/smg/beretta_pm12s-1.jpg[/img]
While Beretta is more famous for their handguns and in some circles their shotguns as well the oldest gun company on earth has in fact made a surprising variety of different firearms. Among them some SMGs, most notably the Model 12.
Designed in the 1950's when Beretta realized that the role of the SMG in modern warfare had changed it borrowed much from the UZI which was in development at the same time. Specifically the telescoping bolt which allowed the gun to maintain a short profile without sacrificing barrel length. This system functioned much like the UZI only it retained a more conventional layout. All variants also have a grip safety. The M12 had another feature in common with the UZI, the ease of manufacture. Many parts were simple stamped steel. Yet, in spite of the surprisingly simplistic and rudimentary nature this gun has character. It appears highly sophisticated, it is very beautiful. Everything from the folding stock to the grip and magazine well assembly appears highly elegant at a glance.
However it had some flaws.
The spartan construction methods resulted in a sloppy trigger group which was prone to firing 2-4 shot bursts when set to semi-automatic and the safety features could occasionally fail. All 3 of them. Regardless of this recurring problem it entered production in 1959. The Italian armed forces and police adopted it soon after.
Eventually seeking a solution to the safety problems Beretta updated it in 1978 as the Beretta M12s. Later, working from a license-built variant made by MAS for the French Gendarmerie Nationale Beretta further refined the M12, resulting in the PM12-S2 which is the only version they make today.
But that's not all.
By then partially due to this weapon's sexy appearance, effectiveness and ease of manufacture it had been licensed by Taurus in Brazil as the MT-12, PT Trinidad in Indonesia as the PM-1 and even manufactured by Defence Industries Corporation in Nigeria as the NS-1. Oh yeah, and don't forget the French MAS which I already mentioned. All of these countries and many more used the M12 for a while in varying numbers. Brazil even made some slightly improved variants that were for a time the primary service SMG in their armed forces and police.
Across the Adriatic Sea from Italy, Croatia also made a copy, although it was somewhat heavily modified. This gun, the Agram 2000 fought in the various scuffles between the Baltic states in the aftermath of the breakup of Yugoslavia before ultimately becoming a prime choice for criminals due to it's compact nature. Of course the M12 found a similar calling for the same reason. It too was found to be an excellent weapon for the criminal underworld. However on the other side of the coin it also found a calling as a VIP protection weapon.
Today the M12 and all of it's cousins pop up here and there. It isn't as popular as the UZI or the MP5 but it is still used by Italy where it is still made by Beretta and there are plenty of other customers as well. From the crime-fighter to the criminal in the street, in fact it isn't unheard of that a couple turn up in the hands of Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[QUOTE=Hunt3r.j2;16784931]The receiver is more desirable, but the bolt needs to be replaced, it's too soft, which would cause excessive headspace. And a lot of other shit that is made wrong in the Norinco M14 has to be replaced.
The only thing desirable about the Norincos is the receiver. Nothing else. But it's still a good M14. If you get a Norinco M14, main thing to check for is the bolt and to make sure it isn't too soft or hard, and that the headspace is good.
A Garand with 20 round mags is a Beretta BM59, btw.[/QUOTE]
Said it for me.
Don't a lot of people get second-hand Norinco M1A receivers for their Springfield rifles?
[QUOTE=SBD;16790413]Don't a lot of people get second-hand Norinco M1A receivers for their Springfield rifles?[/QUOTE]
No.
I have never heard of the M12 before, but I find it very awesome looking in a really special way!
Wow, what a cute little gun.
As cute as a gun can be.
[QUOTE=SBD;16751590]In regards to my planned Amazing Aeroplanes thread, I'm still tossing up whether or not I should do it. If I do, it won't be a for a few weeks because my aircraft encyclopedia is at the bottom of a taped up box, I won't be able to get at it until we move.[/QUOTE]
Hey I can help with your amazing aeroplanes thread
[QUOTE=Bean-O;16782822]I find that hard to buy. But who knows? There are a whole ton of firearm snobs that think that anything other than a 100,000$ M1a carved out of a block of solid gold by god himself that gets .0000000000001 MOA may as well have been made by a blind man out of lead pipes in Kyber Pass. And since no chinese-made firearms are available in the states I will likely never know for sure.[/QUOTE]
fucking lol'd hard
[editline]08:44AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Resistance777;16792367]Hey I can help with your amazing aeroplanes thread[/QUOTE]
Ah, as can i.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;16782822]I find that hard to buy. But who knows? There are a whole ton of firearm snobs that think that anything other than a 100,000$ M1a carved out of a block of solid gold by god himself that gets .0000000000001 MOA may as well have been made by a blind man out of lead pipes in Kyber Pass. And since no chinese-made firearms are available in the states I will likely never know for sure.[/QUOTE]
Quite a few of them are available in the US, I've seen them go for around $800 on Gunbroker.
America>china
China<america
America>china
China<america
China<Brazil
Brazil<AIDS
brazil<my asshole
[QUOTE=nunu;16800704]Brazil<AIDS[/QUOTE]
What the fuck sir
[editline]06:51PM[/editline]
[img]http://www.defesanet.com.br/imagens/eb/blindados/urutu.jpg[/img]
Brazil>"America"
:hurr:
I stand by my opinion.
Content > Last 9 posts
96)Ruger Standard Series
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Ruger_mkiii_bull.jpg/800px-Ruger_mkiii_bull.jpg[/img]
(Pictured is a MK III variant with a bull barrel.)
The origins of this gun coupled with the many uses that were found for it and ultimately the stunning amount of success it brought to its creator make for a rather interesting story.
It all started in 1949.
Back then Bill Ruger, a tinkerer and self-taught engineer was considering making a new handgun. One day he received a baby Nambu pistol as a gift brought back by a GI having returned from Japan. At first he successfully made two duplicates of this pistol which inspired him to make another, more original design that used the same bolt system. This gun also had the profile of a Luger and the familiar grip angle of a 1911.
It was chambered in .22LR.
Realizing that he had a gun he could sell due to the appeal of the Luger's looks, the 1911's feel and the inexpensive, easy-to-use .22 ammunition Bill went to an investor named Alex Strum seeking an investment with which to jump-start his own little company. Impressed with the inexpensive nature and overall sellability of the prototype Alex invested 50,000$ effectively founding Strum Ruger and Co.
Although it appears very solid and indeed it is very well made one of the major innovations in the Standard's construction was simply how inexpensive it was to make. Bill implemented concepts such as two stamped sheetmetal halves welded together to make the receiver and piano-wire springs, these various shortcuts in the production stage were possible and indeed adequate because of the underpowered nature of the .22LR cartridge the Standard fired. Ruger realized that he simply didn't need to utilize the expensive and sturdy construction that other .22LR handgun manufacturers used at the time. The result is that when the first 100 models were released, they were sold for 32$ each.
That is dirt cheap even in 1940's money.
Because of the weapons naturally appealing nature, the bargain-basement price and surprising quality they sold fast. Thanks to well-executed marketing with articles and advertisements in various magazines the Ruger Standard became an American institution overnight. Ruger however insisted that they remain very responsible with their spending. One distinctive trait was that the company didn't cash checks they received from people ordering their guns until the gun was shipped. This kind of responsible approach would become a signature trait for the company for decades to come and in large part contributed in keeping their firearms from being targets of firearm legislation. It also earned them a reputation for good customer service that further bolstered their sales, a good reputation that the company still holds today.
By the next year the company had earned enough money to introduce a target variant with a longer heavier barrel, an improved trigger and adjustable sights. Both stayed in production until 1981 when a refinement of this concept came in the form of the MK II. This variant came in a number of barrel lengths and included a slide stop. The MK II had its own target variant as well.
Eventually in 2004 Ruger updated their handgun again with the introduction of the MK III, it features improved safety features such as a loaded chamber indicator and an internal safety lock which is set with a key. There are other improvements such as the magazine release which had been moved from the heel to the back of the trigger guard and weaver sight mounts for all pistols shipped with adjustable sights including the Target model. There is also a variant called the 22/45 which more closely mimics the feel of the highly popular Colt 1911.
Due to this weapons successful and therefore wildly prolific nature there is a truly vast aftermarket for parts and upgrades. Much like the 10/22 it is possible to have a Ruger Standard, MK II or MK III with very few Ruger parts. You can get everything from precision-made barrels to triggers, to sights and everything in between. One popular modification is to take advantage of such a small caliber by silencing the gun. The US Navy SEALs, Mossad and many a pest control officer utilize silenced variants which although severely underpowered are much quieter than other suppressed handguns.
It is all a shame however, since the investor that made it all possible never lived to see it all become such a great success. Alex Strum died of Hepatitis in 1951, just before the company really took off. Bill too, died a legend of the firearm world in 2002 which was just before the current production MK III series was introduced. While this little pistol faced much competition and many claim (quite possibly rightly so) that it is inferior to other designs such as the Browning Buck Mark it remains the single most successful .22LR handgun ever made.
I really need to get one of those, would really complement the other .22 LR I have from ruger :P
Should've saved that for number 100 :v:
Second cute gun in a row!
Wow, I never knew about that Beretta submachinegun. And how could I forget the Ruger? It has probably sold millions, and probably the starter pistol for a lot of gun owners.
A lot of people claim that the Browning Buck Mark is better and they might be right but the Ruger is still more popular.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;16816465]A lot of people claim that the Browning Buck Mark is better and they might be right but the Ruger is still more popular.[/QUOTE]
Meh, Buckmarks [I]are better[/I], but it's relative. If you're only going to be using it as a plinking pistol rugers are usually cheaper and will be better value -- once again relative to what it's going to be used for.
Another think to keep in mind is the Buckmark comes in a pretty wide range of models tailored for different purposes, I'm not so sure what Ruger offers in this regard.
High Standard is where it as at for .22s though. Much love.
