[QUOTE=Hunt3r.j2;16902225]Ok, WW2 guns inherently will have a shitload of value, because they've stopped making 'em. Garands aren't valuable because they still make entire guns for the civ market.
One example of a gun that is already over 2k in value are all matching G43s in pristine condition. That shit's worth 3k easily. And they've built thousands of 'em.
On another note, a 7.62 NATO rifles can be controlled in full auto. Just need a good muzzle brake and a good pad on the buttstock. 5.56 NATO was created to make full auto significantly easier to control and so you could carry moar ammo. We still have AP ammo anyhow.[/QUOTE]
G43s are generally considered one of the best battle rifles ever made, and are extremely desirable. So of course they're expensive. They're not a bolt action either, and they'd actually still be a contender to this day.
Yea, 7.62 NATO rifles CAN be controlled on full auto, but so can a 12 gauge without any recoil management. (I've done it actually lol.)
It's just not as easy to train people on, and not everyone can handle it comfortably. Thus it's a bad choice for issuing to a bunch of recruits being thrown onto a battlefield.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;16901135]DPMS isn't even worth shit now, aahhaha.
Demand always wins out over history value. Plus do you really think some old bolt action is going to be practical or useful any more in today's world? No, it's not.
The barrel isn't going to be the same as it was when it was new. And we can build semi-autos to out-shoot any bolt action now. That's why your average AR15 can shoot MOA if it isn't a total piece of shit off brand.[/QUOTE]
Demand may win out, but I'll argue your point on "some old bolt action." Some old bolt action can still plug your ass at ranges that a 5.56 can only dream about. As for being practical - bolt actions save ammo. One shot at a time; you're going to make your shots count. Now, I won't argue that a bolt action in a CQC scenario will lose 99% of the time, but for long range fire, there is no substitute. As for the barrel issue - it's not that hard to sit down and order a new barrel if the one currently in the rifle is starting to decline in quality. Hell, some places even offer barrels that were manufactured back in these rifles' time that are still in damned good condition. They get snatched up pretty quick though.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;16901702]Show me one off the shelf war relic rifle you'll find for $2k+ that isn't something that there was only like 10 ever made of, or some other ridiculous bit of history attached to it.
They're already 60 years old, they aren't going to go up much in value unless they become the new hot-item everyone in the gun community must have.[/QUOTE]
Oh wow.
WWII Springfields can go for $1,000, [i]easy[/i]. I lucked out and found a beautiful A3 for $675, bought FTF. The 1,000 price tag is for A3s; I've seen A4s go for over $2,350, and they weren't in the best of shape either. A4s go even higher if they're matching and are in good shape. WWI Springfields, especially if they have the Pedersen device ejection port (or if you're really fucking lucky, come with the Pedersen itself) can go for more, if they're in good shape.
K98s, while common, are also rising in price now, almost at a ridiculous level. Saw a K98 in a Cabela's about 3 years ago, SS stampings, the eagle, the works on the thing, going for $250. I'm kicking myself in the ass right now because I didn't even think to buy it at the time... now, 98s with those sorts of markings are going for outrageous prices; seen 'em peak $3,000, on a couple of occasions. The [i]scopes[/i] alone can be worth over $1,000 these days.
SMLEs, I've seen them climb into the $3,000 range, depending on their year of manufacture, condition and history. And as another guy in this thread said, G43s are getting to be way up there too, even though those aren't bolt actions. Just because these weapons aren't the latest AR-15 or FN or whatever doesn't mean they're worthless.
At the War and Peace show I could have picked up an SMLE and a K98 for £500 for both. Whilst G43's were thousands, if you could find one. At that show you could get pretty much any weapon since 1914 that saw combat, I guess prices depend on the country as well as the rarity.
And, most are deactivated. But the live firers weren't that much more. You could even get them reactivated if you had the right licence.
Alright guys, break it up.
I think what Hunter is trying to say is that milsurp guns tend to go up in value over time. He would be right too. When guns are rendered obsolete and put out of production (such as the Nagant) there is a fixed ammount of them in existence. They are arsenaled and let's say the country needs some cash. So they pawn off their arsenal dirt cheap. You can get guns which cost thousands in today's money to make for only a couple hundred bucks that way (for example, K-31). When they are all pawned off they temporarily flood a firearm market. As they are all bought up the demand remains and with no new guns entering the market, the value of each gun goes up. Nagants are the kinds of guns that you can get for like 75$. Sometimes even less while still having them be in working order. Once the arsenals of millions upon millions of Nagants are depleted the ones in the states will still be circulating, thus slowing the effect but the price will still gradually rise. Where there was no shortage of Nagants before, now there is scarcity. So the average asking price goes from 75$ to 125$.
That is basic economics. So long as the Nagant stays below a certain price the appeal of its low cost, simplicity, relatively vast aftermarket and non-obsolete ammunition will keep the demand relatively high. That isn't to say they will be worth millions some day (well they will if our inflation goes nuts but that is another rant) but the value will slowly go up because they are currently offered at an incredibly low price by any standard.
On the other hand they will never be as valuable as modern rifles. Obviously. They are old, used, possibly damaged. They were designed with a different outlook on warfare in mind. While they will always have some value as a weapon they will never be as valuable as all the newer guns. This is stating the obvious. But none of this is relevant since the initial price difference is so vast. The milsurp gun doesn't need to hold its own against the newer stuff, it is much cheaper, that [b]is[/b] the advantage. What do you expect?
Good luck finding a matching K98 these days.
[editline]01:18PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Oecleus;16890005]Why?
There is a reason we switched out service weapon to the smaller round..[/QUOTE]
Yeah, so Colt could force our governments hand into the vietnam conflict just to test it's new rifle they purchased from Armalite.
I'd like to see an article on the M1A2's firearm.
I mean that 120mm behemoth smoothbore HEAT-firing awesome gun.
Since we're running out of guns, Bean-O, why not do how mass production has affected weaponry? Unlike the way muskets which had to be made by hand. Like the MP40, one of the first mass produced submachine guns used in warfare. Not an article for the MP40, just mention it.
I'm waiting the special article :hurr:
I'd actually like to see an article on comparisons between artillery guns and our direct-attack tank cannons.
Ok story time.
I have had a day at the firing range where almost everything that could have gone wrong did and it is perhaps the most fun I have ever had. I picked up that 1943 Nagant I talked about eariler with the help of one of my friends and we decided to go shooting with it, just to see if it would function at all. What I completely forgot about is the fact that this gun is from 1943 and therefore it needs to be cleaned before you can use it.
But anyway, we show up there with the Nagant, tons of ammo, my Ruger, very little ammo for that and a lever-action Daisy air rifle. The centerfire lanes are all full so they put us on the waiting list, in the meantime we set up at the rimfire area. There I open up the box containing my Ruger and discover that I left the key to the trigger lock at home. I borrowed a paperclip from the rangemaster to try and pick it, but to no avail. So we figure since we don't have much ammo anyway we will fill our time pelting at a target with the air rifle.
Good plan.
But the bench we are assigned to got stolen by someone else. After this was brought up a rangemaster set us up with another one. We waited for a ceasefire and then set up a target. We then spent the next 20 or so minutes pelting at this thing. At the next ceasefire we came to the realization that the BBs failed to penetrate the paper. They were bouncing off the whole time. So that was about half an hour wasted. We then quickly rushed to another bench in the centerfire section and set up the Nagant target.
I was finally going to get a chance to find out if the Nagant works or not. The answer was quite simply no. I chambered a round and the bolt wouldn't lock all the way down. I pulled it back to realize that the bullet was stuck. So again, I had to bug the rangemaster. By now having dealt with the debacle at the rimfire section he was getting quite tired of dealing with my problems. He got a rod to poke the bullet out from the front and I set upon desperately trying to clean up my gun so I could shoot it.
Using a cleaning kit that I had so thoughtfully remembered to bring with me I attacked the cosmoline-encrusted relic. The chamber was really filthy. Gobs of the stuff, some of it solidified came out. Pretty much anything that touched the inside of my gun came out covered in a greenish, yellow black film of partially solidified grime. I know this gun is mismatched, the bluing is gone and the sights are dinged but when I bought this thing I was not expecting this kind of trouble. The rangemaster gives a 2-minute warning, meaning there would be a ceasefire soon. So I rushed like a Maniac to clean this thing up. I make it just in time, place it on the table and step behind the yellow line.
So the entire last half-hour I took up a slot at the range with people on waiting lists trying to use it and during this time I successfully fired exactly 0 shots. The rangemaster was beginning to get pissed off with us.
So everyone goes back to shooting and I try to chamber another round.
Nope, same problem. I assume the gun is jammed the same way again so I call the rangemaster to bring the bore rod. Right when he gets all the way over to where I am the round somehow manages to tumble out by itself. At this point I got the realization that I was trying this guy's patience. In retaliation he walks over to the BB rifle which we had moved to the centerfire area and shakes it. He tells me that it is loaded and that is against the rules, air rifle or not. So now I have to scramble to clean up my gun again while painstakingly unloading a Red Ryder BB gun that is simply not designed to be unloaded. Halfway through that task, with the pissed-off rangemaster distracted I give up and go back to the Nagant. At this point I have a round chambered and I am just hammering the bolt, trying to shove it down. Eventually it gives way and locks in place.
[img]http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/500/729_1242618977342.jpg[/img]
I couldn't believe it finally worked.
I sat down, lined up a shot and pulled the trigger. The first thing I realized is that even with my hearing protection I couldn't hear anything for about a full second. Then I realized that my shoulder hurt. A lot. The gun hadn't exploded. But the recoil by itself was fierce. I was later told that all the oil create much more resistance in the barrel, severely increasing the recoil. The bullet had completely missed the target and landed somewhere in Japan for all I know but I was happy. The gun fired. It takes 45 minutes of work to hammer the bolt closed, the sights are kilometers off and I need a chiropractor but the gun fired.
I repeated the painstaking process of cambering another round so that my friend who had so generously provided a ride all the way to Mountain View and back. He sat down, pulled the trigger and was almost ripped from his seat. But in spite of a new red mark on his shoulder, similar to mine he had the biggest freaking grin on his face. So I loaded another round, fired another shot after readjusting the sights (which it turns out were set to 400 yards) fired again and I think I actually hit the target. Then I let my friend have another go. But after he fired off a shot there was another ceasefire.
At that point we decided that our shoulders had enough punishment and that the rifle definitely needed cleaning. We checked the target to find that it had but one hole in it and a giant gash torn out of the wooden post on the left side. This gun is a wreck, but for 100$ I got my money's worth since it actually fires. And we both decided to go home having spent roughly 6$ a shot for admission because we each fired a total of 2 rounds today. We got our shoulders rearranged twice, we unintentionally pissed off a rangemaster, I realized that the gun I bought is a total piece of shit and that I am a dumbass, but damn did we have a lot of fun.
After being dropped off I set upon cleaning up my gun. I attacked it with everything I had. I was scooping just about handfulls of solidified cosmoline (which looks a lot like snot but smells much worse) out of every orifice this gun had, every swab I passed through the barrel was turned a shade of black resembling crude oil with one or two passes. After hours of work I think the gun is now relatively clean.
Then I found something that just totally made my day.
Checking how much money I had left I found the key to my Ruger in my wallet. It was with me the whole freaking time.
All in all I must say this has been a really crazy day. But like I said in the beginning, while just about everything went wrong it is the most fun I have ever had.
nothing satifies me like a long story
Yeah it has been a crazy day.
Reading that I noticed you gave the impression you can't use your Mosin in the rimfire area, despite the fact that it's rimfire, though I see where they were going with that. Kinda makes me sad, it'd be funny to see a nice assortment of .22s popping off shots at targets, then someone lugging a 91/30 in and going to town.
The mosin isn't a rimfire. It is a centerfire gun with a rimmed cartridge.
This is why I hate trying to buy Mosins.
They're always pre-owned by retards and rednecks who choke the fucking things with cosmoline thinking that it's a good idea.
[QUOTE=Guardian-Angel;16935851]This is why I hate trying to buy Mosins.
They're always pre-owned by retards and rednecks who choke the fucking things with cosmoline thinking that it's a good idea.[/QUOTE]
Well it's better than getting an SKS straight from a Russian armory which is absolutely coated inside and out in creosote.
At least it didn't have a wooden stock or something. Those things will drip cosmo on a hot day of shooting, even if you spent the last two weeks soaking everything in a vat of boiling water.
It does have a wooden stock but I think I have figured out what the former owner did, having learned quite a bit from the extensive cleaning I did today.
Apparently he bought it at big5 or something since it is marked by Century Arms, but he bought it a long time ago since there is a CIS marking on the bottom of the barrel, rather than the side of the receiver which I see a lot more of. Anyway for some reason he felt the need to sand off the bluing if there was ever any to begin with. He couldn't figure out why it wouldn't fire so he must have tossed it up on a wall without trying to clean it (hence the cosmoline). He didn't put the cosmoline there because after removing it (which took a LOT of hard work) I found the rifling to be in excellent condition indicating that this gun wasn't used much.
There is still the issue of the dinged sight. I'm not sure if that happened before or after importation. The cleaning rod/bayonet/oil can are missing altogether. That is the history of my gun as best I can determine.
It's pretty fun to bring bb guns to the range. I have a pellet rifle I got a little scope for and it's pretty accurate. Somehow that little thing has given me more shoulder bruises than every other gun I have ever fired combined. :saddowns:
I cleaned up the nagant and attempted to chamber a round without firing it. The gun had the same problem. I looked into the chamber and there is residue stuck inside a giant groove that circles the right side of the chamber. I now know exactly what problem I am facing. That grit is stopping the extractor from catching the rim of the bullet. If the extractor doesn't catch the rim it doesn't chamber all the way.
I even found a work-around since it turns out this is a very common problem. You can actually remove the entire bolt assembly and attach a bullet to the bolt face/extractor. Then slide it in and wa-la. A single-shot rifle. When I do that it cycles properly because it chambers with the extractor already attached to the rim. The question now is, how the hell do I clean that crap out so that I have a working bolt-action?
[QUOTE=redonkulous;16936724]It's pretty fun to bring bb guns to the range. I have a pellet rifle I got a little scope for and it's pretty accurate. Somehow that little thing has given me more shoulder bruises than every other gun I have ever fired combined. :saddowns:[/QUOTE]
Don't let the buttstock float off your shoulder.
Speaking of which, a detailed article about the SA80 and it's problems would be thuper.
[QUOTE=Hunt3r.j2;16937997]Don't let the buttstock float off your shoulder.
Speaking of which, a detailed article about the SA80 and it's problems would be thuper.[/QUOTE]
I talked a lot about the problems the L85/SA80 series had in the weeaboo weaponry thread.
Anyway...
101)AR-7
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/AR7rifle.jpg/800px-AR7rifle.jpg[/img]
Of the many firearms designed by ArmaLite it may come as a surprise that some weren't exactly built for conventional purposes. One of which, and it has become a success in its own right is the AR-7.
Designed in 1958 by Eugene Stoner it is a bare-bones closed-bolt semi-automatic .22LR rifle that fires from a removable 8 round magazine. The guns action is very simple, the sights are very primitive and the gun itself very light. But it is indeed a military weapon. But how so? How could anyone in the armed forces have any kind use for a stupidly simple blowback .22LR gun?
It is built as a survival rifle for air crews who can occasionally end up getting stranded somewhere and need a lightweight low-caliber rifle in order to help them forage for survival by shooting small animals (birds, rabbits, etc.). The guns features reflect this purpose too. Since it is so simple there is very little that can go wrong. This is important since you can't exactly mail-order spare parts when you don't even know what part of the rain forest you are lost in.
A more interesting feature is the stock. You can actually remove the action from the stock, remove the magazine, detach the barrel and stow everything in a hollowed out space in the stock. Thus a full-size rifle is collapsed down to a small, watertight, 3 pound stock. The best part is that since it is so lightweight and watertight the gun actually floats. Little can be said about the accuracy however and the magazines can be prone to misfeeds if they get damaged.
Over the years many were offered to an used as survival rifles by a few armed forces. Israel is the most famous because they modded theirs with a pistol grip stock and improved sights. The big success however was the AR-7's success in the civilian market. It is highly popular with pilots, off-road enthusiasts, boaters and just about anyone else who runs the risk of being stranded out in the middle of nowhere.
As far as production goes Armalite did make a few but as they did with just about all of their designs they gave the contract to someone else. Namely Charter Arms who are known as a bargain-basement manufacturer. The quality control was so bad that people reported the barrels warping. Eventually Henry got the rights to make them and the AR-7's reputation for reliability improved virtually overnight. Henry still makes them today with an option for a white or a black finish.
Another footnote is that because the barrel and stock could be removed there were numerous aftermarket parts, most of them pretty useless. They included dress-up kits to make the AR-7 resemble guns such as the Thompson or M1 carbine. Charter Arms also made a pistol variant built to emulate the Broomhandle Mauser. AR-7s also made a couple appearances in James Bond films as assassination weapons since they could be disassembled easily. However I doubt any secret agent would have used such a weapon for anything other than its intended purpose which is simply wilderness survival. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nice little practical gun.
The barrels on the new ones are thick plastic with a metal bore.
[QUOTE=Bean-O;16934111]Ok story time.
[/QUOTE]
Not to be a dick, but uh where are you getting your experience from to make all these articles?
I mean you bought a $100 mosin, which sounds like your only non-22lr gun, and neglected to clean it before attempting to shoot it. Not only that, you tried to shoot it regardless that the rounds would barely chamber. You could have killed yourself and perhaps injured or killed many other people at the range. Never, ever, force a gun into battery then try to fire it. Did you even check the barrel for obstructions before you took it to the range?
I'm guessing your experience is rather limited which is why those things were an oversight. It'll only take one time to cure that, which hopefully there will be a next time afterwards.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;16942846]
I'm guessing your experience is rather limited which is why those things were an oversight. It'll only take one time to cure that, which hopefully there will be a next time afterwards.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes. You can count on that.
Ever just do something that is clearly against common sense when you are doing it and you know it?
That basically sums up yesterday. I did put a lot of trust into the quality of the metal and it actually held out very well. But in retrospect it was a stupid risk just to try and get something out of the 12 bucks I spent to get in there. I feel like a total idiot having done that even though the other reason I did it is because the rangemaster and several other people, one of which owned numerous mosins assured me repeatedly that it was totally safe.
As for the problem I encountered the material in the barrel/breech wasn't what was causing the problem. Turns out there is a little groove where the extractor rotates before locking on to the rim when a bullet is chambered. That groove is clogged up. If the extractor doesn't go in there, the bullet won't chamber. So it turns out they were for the most part right since there was no real barrel obstruction and therefore an incredibly low risk of a critical failure. What little oil there was in the barrel simply increased the recoil and slaughtered the accuracy.
Anyway, better to learn these things by almost destroying a 100$ mosin than something else that is worth ten times that but I would definitely not reccomend that someone else do it.
Well fuck me then.....
[QUOTE=Bean-O;16945008]Oh yes. You can count on that.
Ever just do something that is clearly against common sense when you are doing it and you know it?
That basically sums up yesterday. I did put a lot of trust into the quality of the metal and it actually held out very well. But in retrospect it was a stupid risk just to try and get something out of the 12 bucks I spent to get in there. I feel like a total idiot having done that even though the other reason I did it is because the rangemaster and several other people, one of which owned numerous mosins assured me repeatedly that it was totally safe.
As for the problem I encountered the material in the barrel/breech wasn't what was causing the problem. Turns out there is a little groove where the extractor rotates before locking on to the rim when a bullet is chambered. That groove is clogged up. If the extractor doesn't go in there, the bullet won't chamber. So it turns out they were for the most part right since there was no real barrel obstruction and therefore an incredibly low risk of a critical failure. What little oil there was in the barrel simply increased the recoil and slaughtered the accuracy.
Anyway, better to learn these things by almost destroying a 100$ mosin than something else that is worth ten times that but I would definitely not reccomend that someone else do it.[/QUOTE]
You need to take all the wood off that thing and soak every metal piece on a vat of kerosene or something, then wash it out good.
I'd put the wood in an oven at around 120 or so degrees and let all that shit sweat out of the stock as well.
I spent half of yesterday attacking the innards of this gun with everything I had so I'm down to just one trouble spot. That groove for the extractor is still clogged up. The recommendation I got is to pour it full of Hoppe #9 but I would need to get a whole lot of the stuff to actually submerge all the metal components. This is an incredibly long rifle. I just want to find a way to make a smaller portion of it sit in the breech area for a couple days.
That's why I suggested kerosene.
Lot easier to deal with. It'll work just as good too.
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