The problem that every country is frustrated with. Immigration - General

[QUOTE=Lankist;36905697]Nobody has to force change, it happens no matter what. As has been asked twice: Where will Sweden be in a few hundred years? Who will be the domestic majority? Probably not ethnic Swedes. So would you feel the same way if you were on the opposite end of this discussion? Let's say them muslims take over and hold the majority in Sweden for three centuries. Would you hate the ethnic Swedes who want to move back in?[/QUOTE] Yes, I personally would not like a large immigrant population to move in and disrupt my way of life, especially if I am the majority.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36905703]Change happens no matter what, but it will only lead to good if it happens at a pace imperceptible to everyone, which seems like is what you are not arguing for.[/QUOTE] Bullshit. What this boils down to is that you want to be the king of the hill until the day you die. You don't care if you aren't majority in a hundred years, you just don't want to lose it while you're still alive. [editline]23rd July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Eltro102;36905730]Yes, I personally would not like a large immigrant population to move in and disrupt my way of life, especially if I am the majority.[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ, no, you're the minority in this equation. Seriously, you have no empathy. I'm trying to help you look at this from the other side and you simply cannot fathom being a minority.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36905724]there would [I]be[/I] no civil issues.[/QUOTE] This is wrong. A minority can cause a great effect on a large majority, and unless the majority is completely monolithic and all elements of the majority think the same, it will get fragmented leading to [I]civil issues[/I] [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lankist;36905733]Bullshit. What this boils down to is that you want to be the king of the hill until the day you die. You don't care if you aren't majority in a hundred years, you just don't want to lose it while you're still alive.[/QUOTE] No, I do not care if I am not the king, or the ruling majority. What I do care about is the quality of my life (generalizing) to not become worse to my perception, I do not care if I am the majority now, in a hundred year or what ever. I only care if life will become worse for me. [QUOTE=Lankist;36905733] Jesus Christ no, you're the minority in the question Seriously, you have no empathy. I'm trying to help you look at this from the other side and you simply cannot fathom [U]being a minority[/U].[/QUOTE] As an ex-Muslim living in one of the whitest areas of Britain, I would colour you wrong!

Immigration/emigration itself has no direct effect on the world, for better or worse. The total number of people stays the same. The total amount of resources stays the same. One country stands to profit and another stands to take a loss: it's the very definition of a zero-sum game. The countries of the world have to realize this. We're all playing the same game. If we wanted to be, we could all be on the same team. The resources exist to support every human on Earth, and technological advancements are making these resources more and more effective. Lack of fruitful international cooperation is impeding our ability to stop poverty, and end the need for harmful immigration. Hatred and ignorance are what's in the way of this outcome. So, immigration is just a symptom of a bigger problem; it's not a bad thing by itself. Freedom of movement is a core human right. The ability to exercise this right without harming others is a good thing.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36905763]This is wrong. A minority can cause a great effect on a large majority, and unless the majority is completely monolithic and all elements of the majority think the same, it will get fragmented leading to [I]civil issues[/I][/quote] Not democratically. [quote]No, I do not care if I am not the king, or the ruling majority. What I do care about is the quality of my life (generalizing) to not become worse to my perception, I do not care if I am the majority now, in a hundred year or what ever. I only care if life will become worse for me.[/quote] How the hell is that neither selfish nor hateful? "I only care if life will be worse for [I]me.[/I]" Not one ounce of empathy for your fellow man. Who are you to say others should suffer so you don't? Why shouldn't you have to EARN your comfort, just as everyone else? How is it not hateful to benefit from the suffering of others?

Eltro102: Multiculturalism does not create civil unrest. Poverty creates civil unrest.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36905898]Eltro102: Multiculturalism does not create civil unrest. Poverty creates civil unrest.[/QUOTE] And racially driven poverty is caused by the nationalistic "X for the X's" attitude.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36905855]Not democratically. How the hell is that neither selfish nor hateful? "I only care if life will be worse for [I]me.[/I]" Not one ounce of empathy for your fellow man. Who are you to say others should suffer so you don't? Why shouldn't you have to EARN your comfort, just as everyone else? How is it not hateful to benefit from the suffering of others?[/QUOTE] How? If life is worse for my fellow man, I might be empathetic and feel sad, making life worse for me Why shouldn't I have to earn my comfort? Of course I will have to earn it, I never said that I will not. All I have said is that if something happens which will make life worse for me (and thus people I care about e t c) is that it is bad, which [U]might[/U] include immigration

[QUOTE=Lankist;36905503]Implying that if he weren't half Swedish, he wouldn't be welcome.[/QUOTE] You don't read my posts very well. [I]I never advocated a 100% racial purity. I never advocated a complete halt in immigration either, merely a limitation.[/I] [QUOTE=Lankist;36905503]Stop masquerading hatred as love. Your masturbatory sense of self-love does not disguise a disdain for all those whom are not [I]you.[/I][/QUOTE] Wow, you really don't see the difference do you. The Nazi ideology was supremacist. Nationalism isn't. [QUOTE=Lankist;36905697]As has been asked twice: Where will Sweden be in a few hundred years? Who will be the domestic majority? Probably not ethnic Swedes.[/QUOTE] Yes they would, with a restrictive immigration. It's not like they're going to magically disappear. [QUOTE=Lankist;36905733]Bullshit. What this boils down to is that you want to be the king of the hill until the day you die. You don't care if you aren't majority in a hundred years, you just don't want to lose it while you're still alive.[/QUOTE] That's exactly what I care about. Swedes [I]aren't[/I] becoming a minority in my lifetime if we continue with this immigration. But I want to [I]prevent that[/I] from happening in the future. This is something an American like yourself who grew up in a country without feeling any connection to its nationality or ancestry couldn't possibly understand. USA not homogeneous and you never have nor will experience such affinity as I do for my country. And that's the reason you react the way you do, and I don't blame you.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36905898]Eltro102: Multiculturalism does not create civil unrest.[/QUOTE] Civil unrest can be caused by multiculturalism if one of the cultures does not like the other, which would be present unless it was perfectly multicultural society. [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] What this debate has boiled down to so far is the difference between the opinions of what that person believes and agrees with (which means that it is less of a debate and more of a bar fight)

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906005]You don't read my posts very well. [I]I never advocated a 100% racial purity. I never advocated a complete halt in immigration either, merely a limitation.[/I] Wow, you really don't see the difference do you. The Nazi ideology was supremacist. Nationalism isn't. Yes they would, with a restrictive immigration. It's not like they're going to magically disappear. That's exactly what I care about. Swedes are becoming a minority in my lifetime if we continue with this immigration. But I want to prevent that from happening in the future. This is something an American like yourself who grew up in a country without feeling any connection to its nationality or ancestry couldn't possibly understand. USA not homogeneous and you never have nor will never experience such affinity as I do for my country. And that's the reason you react the way you do, and I don't blame you.[/QUOTE] Supremacy is part of nationalism. "Our nation is supreme." You have failed to prove that Swedes becoming a minority is a bad thing. The only reason to hold your position would be to further a nationalist, supremacist agenda. There is nothing innately good about being part of a nation. The protection of what you perceive to be your nationality is selfish. Your nationality is not special. No nation is special. The quality of life of the people, ALL people, is the only thing that matters, and nationalism reduces it. [editline]23rd July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Eltro102;36906020]Civil unrest can be caused by multiculturalism if one of the cultures does not like the other, which would be present unless it was perfectly multicultural society. [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] What this debate has boiled down to so far is the difference between the opinions of what that person believes and agrees with (which means that it is less of a debate and more of a bar fight)[/QUOTE] Cultures do not naturally dislike eachother. Nationalism might cause it, but nationalism is a bad thing. Ignorance and hatred are the enemy here, and you would seem to accept them as a given. I find this attitude appalling.

Why? I am saying that ignorance and hatred exist in multiculturalsim. You cannot just wave your hand and say they don't. You have to realize that the world is not perfect and making it so cannot happen based on good intentions and arguing.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906146]Why? I am saying that ignorance and hatred exist in multiculturalsim. You cannot just wave your hand and say they don't. You have to realize that the world is not perfect and making it so cannot happen based on good intentions and arguing.[/QUOTE] That's a straw man. I never said they didn't. Try again.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906020]Civil unrest can be caused by multiculturalism if one of the cultures does not like the other, which would be present unless it was perfectly multicultural society.)[/QUOTE] The only culture that seems to have any dislike for any other is yours.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906169]That's a straw man. I never said they didn't. Try again.[/QUOTE] No it isn't. You said that taking the existence of ignorance and hate as a given is wrong and bad. If I am wrong then please re-iterate your argument so [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lankist;36906214]The only culture that seems to have any dislike for any other is yours.[/QUOTE] if you think that then I cannot change your opinion on my culture

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906214]The only culture that seems to have any dislike for any other is yours.[/QUOTE] *COUGH ISLAM* Don't make sweeping statements if you can't back them up.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906005]You don't read my posts very well. [I]I never advocated a 100% racial purity. I never advocated a complete halt in immigration either, merely a limitation.[/I][/quote] Oh okay so you're only partially racist. [quote]Wow, you really don't see the difference do you. The Nazi ideology was supremacist. Nationalism isn't.[/quote] uhhhhh nationalism is supremacist by definition. It's super patriotism. The needs of the nation (ethnicity, religion and culture) outweigh everything and everyone else. [quote]That's exactly what I care about. Swedes [I]aren't[/I] becoming a minority in my lifetime if we continue with this immigration. But I want to [I]prevent that[/I] from happening in the future.[/QUOTE] How the fuck isn't that supremacist, selfish, exploitative and simply [I]wrong?[/I] Your only problem is that you don't like sharing. You admitted it right there. You don't want to share.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906224]a what [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] if you think that then I cannot change your opinion on my culture[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man[/url] Maybe you should learn a little more about debate before you try it. EDIT: Remember, debate is not the same thing as arguing.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906239][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man[/url] Maybe you should learn a little more about debate before you try it.[/QUOTE] Ad hominem

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906232]*COUGH ISLAM* Don't make sweeping statements if you can't back them up.[/QUOTE] Care to elaborate? Are you implying Islam, as a whole, hates everyone else? I'm p. pissy when it comes to Islam on the theological grounds but I'm pretty sure they aren't hitler.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906258]Ad hominem[/QUOTE] Uh. No, because I didn't attempt to use "you don't know how to debate" to refute your arguments. However, you don't know how to debate.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906086]Supremacy is part of nationalism. "Our nation is supreme."[/QUOTE] Uhm, no? Where did you get that from? If nationalists felt that way, then why would they communicate with and applaud other nationalistic movements in different countries across the globe? [QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906086]There is nothing innately good about being part of a nation. The protection of what you perceive to be your nationality is selfish. Your nationality is not special. No nation is special. The quality of life of the people, ALL people, is the only thing that matters, and nationalism reduces it.[/QUOTE] Nationalism doesn't reduce quality of life. If you're saying that immigration is some way to make the world better, then I think you should take a look at [B][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE"]this[/URL][/B]. As Eltro102 said on last page, [I]it boils down to a matter of opinion and what you feel in your heart.[/I] You're a cosmopolitan, and I'm a nationalist. You want world citizenship and multiculturalism across the globe, and I want domestic and cultural distinctiveness.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906261]Care to elaborate? Are you implying Islam, as a whole, hates everyone else? I'm p. pissy when it comes to Islam on the theological grounds but I'm pretty sure they aren't hitler.[/QUOTE] Not as a monolithic entity, no, but large amounts of it do. This is coming from a ®ex muslamic

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906280]Uhm, no? Where did you get that from? If nationalists felt that way, then why would they communicate with and applaud other nationalistic movements in different countries across the globe?[/QUOTE] From the definition of nationalism. Nationalism: An extreme form of [patriotism] esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906261]Care to elaborate? Are you implying Islam, as a whole, hates everyone else?[/QUOTE] Erm, yes. It's in the Quran. One of the core tenants of their religion is that nonbelievers should be converted or killed. Death to Jews, apostates should be executed, etc. Let's not turn this into an argument about Islam. My point was simply that broad statements like yours are easily falsified. I'm just trying to help.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906280]Uhm, no? Where did you get that from? If nationalists felt that way, then why would they communicate with and applaud other nationalistic movements in different countries across the globe? [/QUOTE] Because they have the same generalized viewpoints [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] It's not our nation is supreme, it is what we think is right and supreme

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906286]Not as a monolithic entity, no, but large amounts of it do. This is coming from a ®ex muslamic[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure people leaving theocracies don't generally aim to establish new theocracies. If muslim immigrants were fine with strict theocratic rule then they probably wouldn't have left a strict, theocratic state.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906310]Erm, yes. It's in the Quran. One of the core tenants of their religion is that nonbelievers should be converted or killed. Death to Jews, apostates should be executed, etc. Let's not turn this into an argument about Islam. My point was simply that broad statements like yours are easily falsified. I'm just trying to help.[/QUOTE] Can we not take random portions of any holy books or what not, as nobody follows and one of them without context or cherry-picking bits, nor can anybody with the amounts of self-contradiction.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906310]Erm, yes. It's in the Quran. One of the core tenants of their religion is that nonbelievers should be converted or killed. Death to Jews, apostates should be executed, etc. Let's not turn this into an argument about Islam. My point was simply that broad statements like yours are easily falsified. I'm just trying to help.[/QUOTE] Look, I'm not going to argue with religion here. Islam is shit, as is every other religion ever. But its tenants, especially ones which [I]FLEE[/I] theocratic states, aren't generally out to have a re-do. That's like someone fleeing Nazi Germany and then trying to start a new Nazi party in whatever country they immigrated to. That's not how it works. If they liked it, they wouldn't have fled.

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906086]Cultures do not naturally dislike eachother. Nationalism might cause it, but nationalism is a bad thing. Ignorance and hatred are the enemy here, and you would seem to accept them as a given. I find this attitude appalling.[/QUOTE] What about the Islamic hate against Jews?