The problem that every country is frustrated with. Immigration - General

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906317]I'm pretty sure people leaving theocracies don't generally aim to establish new theocracies. If muslim immigrants were fine with strict theocratic rule then they probably wouldn't have left a strict, theocratic state.[/QUOTE] Nah, they generally do not live in strict theocratic states, (arabia barely accounts for world-wide muslims, and the strict portions account for a small, albeit looked up to, amount). The base of their religion is very strong and drilled into them a lot, which naturally leads to them wanting to spread it and generally appearing (in all aspects) different to the norm, which people may not like.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906280]Uhm, no? Where did you get that from? If nationalists felt that way, then why would they communicate with and applaud other nationalistic movements in different countries across the globe? [/QUOTE] Then why wouldn't they happily absorb cultures that might have better ideas than theirs? The free exchange of ideas and thought is what leads to improvements in quality of life. Pushing away these ideas damages it. [QUOTE=Hellsten;36906280] Nationalism doesn't reduce quality of life. If you're saying that immigration is some way to make the world better, then I think you should take a look at [B][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE"]this[/URL][/B]. As Eltro102 said on last page, [I]it boils down to a matter of opinion and what you feel in your heart.[/I] You're a cosmopolitan, and I'm a nationalist. You want world citizenship and multiculturalism across the globe, and I want domestic and cultural distinctiveness.[/QUOTE] I already explained this on the last page. We're all part of the same game. Nationalism is bad for everyone.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906302]From the definition of nationalism. Nationalism: An extreme form of [patriotism] esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.[/QUOTE] That's a false definition. Nationalism is an ideology that is based on the community within the nations borders. Nationalism celebrates the nation, culture, history and defends the nation and its interests.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906342]What about the Islamic hate against Jews?[/QUOTE] That's a theological issue, not a race issue. How many (ex?)muslim immigrants have you met that were like "oh yeah, it was GREAT where I was from, let's do it again here." [editline]23rd July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Hellsten;36906368]That's a false definition. Nationalism is an ideology that is based on the community within the nations borders. Nationalism celebrates the nation, culture, history and defends the nation and its interests.[/QUOTE] Sorry how many political science courses have you taken? Because you're sort of redefining a hundreds-year-old concept just so you aren't compared to a nazi. What you're describing is patriotism, not nationalism. Nationalism is, by its very definition, extreme patriotism. You think your continued comfort and prosperity is supreme over the comfort and prosperity of foreigners. How is that not supremacy?

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906355]Then why wouldn't they happily absorb cultures that might have better ideas than theirs? The free exchange of ideas and thought is what leads to improvements in quality of life. Pushing away these ideas damages it.[/QUOTE] That's hilarious considering the majority of the immigration in Sweden consists of people coming from troubled nations with a broken government/society.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906331]Look, I'm not going to argue with religion here. Islam is shit, as is every other religion ever. But its tenants, especially ones which [I]FLEE[/I] theocratic states, aren't generally out to have a re-do. That's like someone fleeing Nazi Germany and then trying to start a new Nazi party in whatever country they immigrated to. That's not how it works. If they liked it, they wouldn't have fled.[/QUOTE] There are very few islamic immigrants feeling theocratic states, especially into other states where the way of life is significantly different. A slightly related question, are you in the UK? if so I would suggest, if possible, to visit Southall, Upton Park e t c to see what I'm taking about (i e natives not liking immigrants and immigrants liking each other too much, forming islands which is bad for multiculturalism).

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906342]What about the Islamic hate against Jews?[/QUOTE] The world 'natural' was intended to imply that any hatred that DOES occur is an artificial development. It shouldn't happen. It's a problem, and it should be dealt with in some way. You can't ignore specific words I say in order to try and refute my arguments.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906369]Sorry how many political science courses have you taken? Because you're sort of redefining a hundreds-year-old concept just so you aren't compared to a nazi. What you're describing is patriotism, not nationalism. Nationalism is, by its very definition, extreme patriotism.[/QUOTE] Patriotism is celebrating your country, especially your government, no matter what. Nationalism is about the people, culture and history.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906388]There are very few islamic immigrants feeling theocratic states, especially into other states where the way of life is significantly different. A slightly related question, are you in the UK? if so I would suggest, if possible, to visit Southall, Upton Park e t c to see what I'm taking about (i e natives not liking immigrants and immigrants liking each other too much, forming islands which is bad for multiculturalism).[/QUOTE] I'm Mexican, as in the United States' greatest scapegoat for all problems for all time. I've been at the end of the "you're destroying this country" argument, and it's downright wrong. [editline]23rd July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Hellsten;36906386]That's hilarious considering the majority of the immigration in Sweden consists of people coming from troubled nations with a broken government/society.[/QUOTE] HOW IS THIS NOT SUPREMACIST?

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906369]That's a theological issue, not a race issue. How many (ex?)muslim immigrants have you met that were like "oh yeah, it was GREAT where I was from, let's do it again here." [/QUOTE] Again, immigration, atleast from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and to a smaller extent Arabia (from my experience) creates islands which they try to make seem like home, sure they may be looking for a better life abroad (esp in India, Pak and Bangladesh where they strongly look up to travelling to America and the UK), when they arrive here they stick together and make islands (ghetto is probably too strong).

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906386]That's hilarious considering the majority of the immigration in Sweden consists of people coming from troubled nations with a broken government/society.[/QUOTE] And the cause of the original civil unrest is almost always poverty. I've gone over this. Poverty is the issue here, not immigration. Immigration isn't a bad thing by itself.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906415]Patriotism is celebrating your country, especially your government, no matter what. Nationalism is about the people, culture and history.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Hellsten;36906386]That's hilarious considering the majority of the immigration in Sweden consists of people coming from troubled nations with a broken government/society.[/QUOTE] You aren't getting it. This is supremacist. This shit you just said. [editline]23rd July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Eltro102;36906431]Again, immigration, atleast from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and to a smaller extent Arabia (from my experience) creates islands which they try to make seem like home, sure they may be looking for a better life abroad (esp in India, Pak and Bangladesh where they strongly look up to travelling to America and the UK), when they arrive here they stick together and make islands (ghetto is probably too strong).[/QUOTE] Hmm, so the nationalist pricks who don't like immigrants get mad because they live together. I wonder why they're living together? Maybe it's because they're detested by racists? Shit when I got beaten up in school, I sure as fuck didn't go hang out with those same people in my spare time.

You seem to banding around the term supremacist as some sort of be-all end-all destroyer, when thinking that certain people are better than others is not wrong nor terrible.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906417]HOW IS THIS NOT SUPREMACIST?[/QUOTE] How is it? My solution is to help them build up their society instead of bringing a small portion of their population to my country.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906472]when thinking that certain people are better than others is not wrong nor terrible.[/QUOTE] uhh it's fucking racist.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906438] Hmm, so the nationalist pricks who don't like immigrants get mad because they live together. I wonder why they're living together? Maybe it's because they're detested by racists? Shit when I got beaten up in school, I sure as fuck didn't go hang out with those same people in my spare time.[/QUOTE] The only thing that I can say here is that you are wrong and you have not experienced it (the kind of immigration which can destroy entire areas), no offence to whatever racial bullying you might have got

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906484]How is it? My solution is to help them build up their society instead of bringing a small portion of their population to my country.[/QUOTE] Uhh you're bandying yourself about like Sweden is God's own paradise, and you're above all of those other proles. That's supremacist. You think you're better than them

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906432]And the cause of the original civil unrest is almost always poverty. I've gone over this. Poverty is the issue here, not immigration. Immigration isn't a bad thing by itself.[/QUOTE] And I've gone over this; immigration is not the solution to world poverty.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906472]You seem to banding around the term supremacist as some sort of be-all end-all destroyer, when thinking that certain people are better than others is not wrong nor terrible.[/QUOTE] Yes. It is. People cannot be 'better' than people. A group cannot be superior to another. Again, I find your attitude absolutely abhorrent. It's the same attitude used by lynch mobs, slavers, and yes, Nazis.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906500]The only thing that I can say here is that you are wrong and you have not experienced it (the kind of immigration which can destroy entire areas), no offence to whatever racial bullying you might have got[/QUOTE] As Megafan said, "You're wrong, but I can't explain why you're wrong" is not debate. If all you have to say is "you're wrong," stop arguing.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906472]You seem to banding around the term supremacist as some sort of be-all end-all destroyer, when thinking that certain people are better than others is not wrong nor terrible.[/QUOTE] Yes. It is. People cannot be 'better' than people. A group cannot be superior to another. Again, I find your attitude absolutely abhorrent. It's the same attitude used by lynch mobs, slavers, and yes, Nazis. [QUOTE=Hellsten;36906512]And I've gone over this; immigration is not the solution to world poverty.[/QUOTE] Straw man. I never said it was.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906509]Uhh you're bandying yourself about like Sweden is God's own paradise, and you're above all of those other proles. That's supremacist. You think you're better than them[/QUOTE] No I don't. I think they have the right to a working society so that they can continue to live with their own culture, because it has every right to continue existing. [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906536]Straw man. I never said it was.[/QUOTE] So why are you defending this type of immigration?

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906537]No I don't. I think they have the right to a working society so that they can continue to live with their own culture, because it has every right to continue existing.[/QUOTE] But they can't come to your country, they need to stay in their own shitty little countries because they might muck up yours. If you thought they were equal, you wouldn't act like their mere presence is a threat to your entire way of life. If your way of life is threatened by mere exposure to foreigners, your way of life is racist.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906489]uhh it's fucking racist.[/QUOTE] You right now think you are a better person than me. Is that racist? No. It is your opinion on something, which cannot be racist or discriminatory at all ever.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906550]But they can't come to your country, they need to stay in their own shitty little countries because they might muck up yours.[/QUOTE] It wouldn't be so shitty if the nations across the world went together and actually stepped in for real instead of moving them like sheep to another pasture.

[QUOTE=Eltro102;36906562]You right now think you are a better person than me. Is that racist? No. It is your opinion on something, which cannot be racist or discriminatory at all ever.[/QUOTE] I think I'm better than you because I'm more ethical, not because you're a different shade of brown. And I sure as shit am not going to try to do anything to you for it.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906537]So why are you defending this type of immigration?[/QUOTE] You actually haven't stopped employing the straw man fallacy, here. Just because it's not the cure to poverty doesn't mean it should abolished. That doesn't make sense. Try again.

[QUOTE=Lankist;36906550]If you thought they were equal, you wouldn't act like their mere presence is a threat to your entire way of life.[/QUOTE] It isn't. But it is an indirect threat to my culture.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;36906598]It isn't. But it is an indirect threat to my culture.[/QUOTE] And why does your culture deserve to survive above theirs?

[QUOTE=Smashmaster;36906594]You actually haven't stopped employing the straw man fallacy, here. Just because it's not the cure to poverty doesn't mean it should abolished. That doesn't make sense. Try again.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that. I said [I]this type of immigration[/I] for a reason. [editline]24th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Lankist;36906603]And why does your culture deserve to survive above theirs?[/QUOTE] That's exactly what I'm saying it doesn't! That's why we need to help them down there instead of bring them here. So that [I]both[/I] of our cultures can continue existing while avoiding this cultural clash that is happening in Sweden.