Lolicon, should it be legal or illegal. - General

Some people like it some people don't, if you don't like it then don't look/search for it. That's one big thing I don't understand about a lot of things. I say legal. "oh I don't like it, its bad and it is bad for the world to see" .... then why in the fuck do you choose to look at it and search for it?

[QUOTE=Lertez;32772630]Some people like it some people don't, if you don't like it then don't look/search for it. That's one big thing I don't understand about a lot of things. I say legal. "oh I don't like it, its bad and it is bad for the world to see" .... then why in the fuck do you choose to look at it and search for it?[/QUOTE] They don't. I mean you probably think real CP is gross right? You don't need to actually need to search it up to think it's bad.

[QUOTE=Crimor;32771468]I mean the snuff films where they pretty much mutilate someone to the point of killing them.[/QUOTE] They do that in 3 guys 1 hammer. And what about beheading videos? Most of the shit from ogrish or bestgore? A lot of that is definitely "mutilation to the point of killing". The 3 guys 1 hammer incident was even made for the purpose of filming it, making it a true snuff film. Is that illegal? If so I'd really like to see sources on that.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2e4At.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32775508][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2e4At.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Censoring/banning lolicon still remains the wrong way of tackling the issue of sexualisation of children and the demand for it; especially when trying to enforce that law has so many loopholes, contrivances and ambiguity.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32775508][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2e4At.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] You're totally right, lolicon is able to be used for evil, so let's ban it. Oh wait, that's fucking stupid. [editline]14th October 2011[/editline] Oh, and don't use images for text. It's idiotic. [b]Plain text version[/b]: [QUOTE=Lonestriper;32775508]Speaking as someone born and raised in Japan, as well as a victim of childhood sexual abuse, it pisses me off seeing Westerners arguing that lolicon/shotacon should not be made illegal. How many of you actually have any idea about Japanese politics concerning CP? How many of you know that loli/shota is very common to use for grooming young children for sex? All therapy groups I've been to, and online support groups, many Japanese victims were shown loli or shota porn by their abusers, including myself. Because it's so easily obtained, and the fact it is cartoons the child will be more likely to think "This is okay and normal." Not to mention, more and more adults are start to believe that attraction to very young kids is okay. Junior idols as young as 11 putting out photo books with wearing lingery and fetish out fit? This is not okay. Illegalizing loli/shota is more complicated than "I think loli/shota is gross!" This is a issue of corruptions culture and not just about media censoring.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32775508][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2e4At.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Knives are often used by murderers. Ban knives. [editline]14th October 2011[/editline] [quote]How many of you know that loli/shota is very common to use for grooming young children for sex?[/quote] That is not surprising, but like with my knife analogy, just because it is possible to use something in a bad way, does not mean that it should be banned all together. Grooming children for sex is bad whether you use lolicon, real child porn or fucking text, but you can't ban any of those based on just that. You can ban them if they harm someone in and of themselves, which is exactly why child porn is illegal while the two others are not. [quote]Because it's so easily obtained, and the fact it is cartoons the child will be more likely to think "This is okay and normal."[/quote] Same goes for violent movies and video games. They're easily obtainable, and since they're games make the child more likely to think that it's okay and normal. Right? It's the parent's responsibility to make sure that their child doesn't get a screwed up view of life. And if someone deliberately tries to screw up their view of life, then [I]that[/I] is the crime. [quote]Not to mention, more and more adults are start to believe that attraction to young kids is okay.[/quote] Of course, this is subjective, but I think it [I]is[/I] okay. Who are you to decide what is okay and what is not, at least as long as nobody is being harmed? [quote]Junior idols as young as 11 putting out photo books with wearing lingery and fetish out fit? This is not okay.[/quote] That's a complete different subject. Real people are involved now, so that's a different discussion. Is that okay, or is it not okay? I bet we could discuss that, too. All I can say is that you cannot say "This is not okay" for a fact, but I won't try to make up a counter argument mostly because firstly I kind of agree, and secondly it is off topic. [quote]Illegalizing loli/shota is more complicated than "I think loli/shota is gross!" This is a issue of corruption culture and not just about media censoring."[/quote] So what about violent movies and video games? What about violence in cartoons? Is that not also an issue of corrupting culture? Don't you think that banning violence would be a little over the top in the censoring department? Do you think violence in cartoons/movies/games are okay? Then why not sex? [editline]14th October 2011[/editline] Also, about your own experiences, I'm sorry to hear about that. I can't say I know what it feels like, but I do know that it's not something trivial which you can just wave out like it isn't there. That being said, there's really no reason to include it in a discussion about lolicon. It doesn't make your arguments any more reliable. In fact it seems more like you're trying to appeal to emotion and make anyone who argues against it look like bad people.

[QUOTE=Crimor;32771468]Movies have realistic scenes of something illegal too, murder, so you're against that too?[/QUOTE] the difference there though is that the actor agreed with it

[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;32775785]Also, about your own experiences, I'm sorry to hear about that. I can't say I know what it feels like, but I do know that it's not something trivial which you can just wave out like it isn't there. That being said, there's really no reason to include it in a discussion about lolicon. It doesn't make your arguments any more reliable. In fact it seems more like you're trying to appeal to emotion and make anyone who argues against it look like bad people.[/QUOTE] Dude I was just posting an image which raises an interesting angle of argument, if in reality I had been raped I would not be talking to facepunch about it at all, FP and the internet in general is the last place i'd talk about being raped. [editline]14th October 2011[/editline] Also I feel the 'it would be hypocritical to not ban violence in media as well!' argument is misguided as the morals of society deem what is right and wrong. People grow up believing violence is justified through all the hero worship of soldiers, war and how (especially in males) we have been groomed to react a certain way when threatened (violently). Lolicon and the sexualisation of children doesn't fall under very many peoples moral compass.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32776302]Also I feel the 'it would be hypocritical to not ban violence in media as well!' argument is misguided as the morals of society deem what is right and wrong.[/QUOTE] No it doesn't. What's right and wrong is dictated by what helps your fellow people, and what doesn't. [editline]14th October 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=CapsAdmin;32776280]the difference there though is that the actor agreed with it[/QUOTE] Whoosh.

[QUOTE=Jookia;32776374]No it doesn't. What's right and wrong is dictated by what helps your fellow people, and what doesn't.[/QUOTE] As much as we'd like to believe that no, no it doesn't. For example when slavery around it was considered fine as the ideas of individuals rights were not commonplace, therefore these people could be bought and sold for business uses

[QUOTE=Crimor;32771468]Movies have realistic scenes of something illegal too, murder, so you're against that too?[/QUOTE] I think I'm not being clear here. First I was talking about if 3d child porn would be illegal if people couldn't tell it was 3D, but then I was moving onto if the characters in said child porn video or image looked exactly like someone in real life. Knowing the internet, there are probably snuff videos out there that aren't real but people still think it's real and attach emotions to the guy being killed. This may be stretching it a bit.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32776415]As much as we'd like to believe that no, no it doesn't. For example when slavery around it was considered fine as the ideas of individuals rights were not commonplace, therefore these people could be bought and sold for business uses[/QUOTE] So you're saying slavery was right at some point, then magically became wrong? Or that slavery was always wrong and society just had its own views? Because that's pretty much what I'm asserting. Right and wrong are constant, opinions aren't.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;32776302]Dude I was just posting an image which raises an interesting angle of argument, if in reality I had been raped I would not be talking to facepunch about it at all, FP and the internet in general is the last place i'd talk about being raped.[/QUOTE] Ah, alright, I was wondering why it was an image and not text. Points still stand, except not directed at you, but at the person who made the image first. [QUOTE]Also I feel the 'it would be hypocritical to not ban violence in media as well!' argument is misguided as the morals of society deem what is right and wrong. People grow up believing violence is justified through all the hero worship of soldiers, war and how (especially in males) we have been groomed to react a certain way when threatened (violently). Lolicon and the sexualisation of children doesn't fall under very many peoples moral compass.[/QUOTE] That's kinda true, we've been taught that violence is a-okay (Movies, games) but that sex is a big no no. And when sex and children are coupled together in any way at all, people flip a shit. But is that right? So just because that is the general opinion at the moment, that violence is okay, does that actually make it right to ban/censor lolicon but not violent games/movies and so on? Sex harms children, violence harms people. Either we ban everything that depicts these things, or we ban neither. It [I]would[/I] be hypocritical any other way. It isn't a misguided argument, it's just saying that the morals of society indeed are hypocritical. That's something I think should be changed, but again it's kind of off-topic. Immoral or not, it shouldn't be banned if it doesn't harm anybody.

[QUOTE=Jookia;32776374]No it doesn't. What's right and wrong is dictated by what helps your fellow people, and what doesn't.[/QUOTE] Unfortunately it is not as simple as that. [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/TheAgora/comments/l3hcg/the_trolley_problem/[/url] While this thread is about another problem, it still revolves around two stories that work as fine examples as to saying that right and wrong is really really difficult (if not impossible) to define.

Looking at these, I fail to see the difference between Lolicon and Child Porn. Because it's illustrated doesn't mean it should be legal. That's like saying Child Porn that's illustrated should be leg-oh, wait.

[QUOTE=Strongbad;32778062]Looking at these, I fail to see the difference between Lolicon and Child Porn. Because it's illustrated doesn't mean it should be legal. That's like saying Child Porn that's illustrated should be leg-oh, wait.[/QUOTE] Child Porn is illegal because it exploits children. Drawn child porn (AKA lolicon) doesn't, thus legal.

I remember last time there was a thread like this, garry drew a picture of a baby jacking off.

[QUOTE=Jookia;32778126]Child Porn is illegal because it exploits children. Drawn child porn (AKA lolicon) doesn't, thus legal.[/QUOTE] This is true. I honestly thought most people just didn't like so they banned it. The media and the people make it seem as if there are two kinds of people in this world. The ones who want pedophiles dead and locked up or the ones that are pedophiles. Every time the subject is brought up everyone seems to have to make sure no one thinks they're a pedophile by showing strong hate against it. It's kinda fucked when you think about it, because when people do everything to prove they're not something it's usually the other way around.

[QUOTE=Strongbad;32778062]Looking at these, I fail to see the difference between Lolicon and Child Porn. Because it's illustrated doesn't mean it should be legal. That's like saying Child Porn that's illustrated should be leg-oh, wait.[/QUOTE] I still cannot grasp why people seem to think that it's illegal just because it's 'disgusting', or because it is somehow immoral even though nobody is being harmed; while everybody seems to always be shooting around 'freedom' (especially freedom of speech) as if they actually valued freedom. Either you value freedom or you don't. I'd much prefer that people do value it, because freedom is a cool thing, but there should at least be some consistency.

If it keep the weirdos away from harming children then it's probably better legal than illegal.

Pics are no harm.

If lolicon does become illegal people will just change all the characters to 18 even though they look 10. I mean you can't really say its wrong because she looks 10 because thats subjective.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;32786495]If lolicon does become illegal people will just change all the characters to 18 even though they look 10. I mean you can't really say its wrong because she looks 10 because thats subjective.[/QUOTE] flat chested 18 year old yeah, right.

[QUOTE=a-k-t-w;32793798]flat chested 18 year old yeah, right.[/QUOTE] Yes, let's ban drawings of people of legal age with incorrect proportions. Shall we go ban Anime for having long hair?

[QUOTE=a-k-t-w;32793798]flat chested 18 year old yeah, right.[/QUOTE] Well it's hard to tell the ages of some asians.

[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;32767888]Snuff films are illegal? For example 3 guys 1 hammer? What about random gore images and gifs? Seriously had no idea if that is true and they are illegal. Otherwise I agree... Yay for double standards.[/QUOTE] Snuff films are actually murders carried out and recorded for the purpose of selling/passing on to others like a commercial product. No real ones are known to exist I think, but general murders caught on tape that were recorded for the murderer's own personal pleasure do and some have been leaked to the internet. It's a different thing. Also just because they're illegal it doesn't mean they can't get exposed to the internet. On the subject of lolicon, I say it should be legal. I don't condone it, I find it creepy personally, I don't think it should be promoted or widely distributed (and definitely not shown to children) but it's much better for peadophiles to wank off to fake child porn pictures than real ones. Eliminating all images of child pornography, real or fake, will not remove peadophiles from society. They will always exist and perhaps those images can help satisfy their sick desires rather than have them seek out images of real children/go out and molest a real child. [QUOTE=Lonestriper;32775508][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2e4At.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Child grooming will unfortunately always happen, lolicon or shotacon is just being used as a visual aid and without it these peadophiles will just use some other methods to groom children. It won't cut down child abuse.

I draw my lolicon from observation [sp]kidding[/sp]

[QUOTE=xXDictatorXx;32794923]Snuff films are actually murders carried out and recorded for the purpose of selling/passing on to others like a commercial product. No real ones are known to exist I think,[/QUOTE] 3 guys one hammer. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs#Motivation[/url] [quote]Local media reported that the killers had a plan to get rich from the murder videos that they recorded. One of the suspects' girlfriends reported that they were planning to make forty videos of separate murders[/quote] [QUOTE]but general murders caught on tape that were recorded for the murderer's own personal pleasure do and some have been leaked to the internet. It's a different thing.[/QUOTE] Both have a victim? Why are they different? I mean there's child porn, there's murder caught on tape, murder deliberately taped for a snuff film and there's accidents caught on tape. All have a victim. What makes them different? We kinda went off-topic here, though. Real point is still on fiction; whether fictive child porn should be illegal. And I think, since there is no-one being harmed in it, it should always be legal. Just like violent video games. [QUOTE]Also just because they're illegal it doesn't mean they can't get exposed to the internet.[/QUOTE] But ARE they actually illegal? I'd really like to know. [QUOTE]If lolicon does become illegal people will just change all the characters to 18 even though they look 10. I mean you can't really say its wrong because she looks 10 because thats subjective. [/QUOTE] That won't stop it from being illegal if lolicon was illegal. It is judged by appearance, I think. At least it would be a grey (and silly) area, because nobody would be able to say for sure, unless you ask the artist. For example, Touhou uses pretty much exclusively loli characters, yet almost all of them are at least a thousand years old.

[QUOTE=a-k-t-w;32793798]flat chested 18 year old yeah, right.[/QUOTE] Thats why Australia I think it was banned small boobs from porn because they say it promotes pedophilia.