[QUOTE=carcarcargo;32782739]If it keep the weirdos away from harming children then it's probably better legal than illegal.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between a pedophile and a child rapist, why do I have to keep repeating this, pedophilia is a fetish, and a rapist is one that acts their fetish on other people.
Its just the way the media makes pedophiles out to be. Its like saying if you like white women your going to go out and rape one or that if your into vore your going to eat someone.
[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;32797840]3 guys one hammer.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs#Motivation[/url]
Both have a victim? Why are they different? I mean there's child porn, there's murder caught on tape, murder deliberately taped for a snuff film and there's accidents caught on tape. All have a victim. What makes them different? We kinda went off-topic here, though.
Real point is still on fiction; whether fictive child porn should be illegal. And I think, since there is no-one being harmed in it, it should always be legal. Just like violent video games.
But ARE they actually illegal? I'd really like to know.
That won't stop it from being illegal if lolicon was illegal. It is judged by appearance, I think. At least it would be a grey (and silly) area, because nobody would be able to say for sure, unless you ask the artist. For example, Touhou uses pretty much exclusively loli characters, yet almost all of them are at least a thousand years old.[/QUOTE]
The 3 guys one hammer video is not a snuff film, it is a murder recorded that got leaked. No real *snuff films* are known to exist. By "it's a different thing" I meant that a snuff film is not the same as a murder on tape because the purpose for recording and the intended audience is different, they do both have a victim of course.
I do think fake child porn should remain legal even if I find it disturbing because there is no victim and such images may help keep pedophiles from harming real children. Films made that are hurting real people are the problem, false ones are disturbing but nobody is getting hurt.
In my opinion, when it all comes down to it, I have to agree that lolicon shouldn't be banned. I ain't a fan of it but when it comes down to freedom, that's what I have to go with.
The thing is, you've got two choices here, and as redundant as it is, it's basically this:
America's got guns. While we do have a process for getting guns and ensuring that people don't get stupid with them, America's got guns. One person shoots someone else and he's deemed insane. Well, are you going to ban it all together because the idea of some guys not being able to handle it/himself or are you going to leave it available? We made the latter choice.
Now, comparatively it doesn't fit to scale when you say guns and lolicon, but I mean that mentality is a bit more consistent through-out the board. Guns, cars, knives, weapons in general - the only difference is that there isn't really a system set up for lolicon, so it's not like they can cut you off or keep a close watch on you as easy as legally as they can with things like guns and what not.
And what's to say banning lolicon is gonna help? It's not like if I give you heroin and then cut you off that you aren't gonna get your fix any other way. You'll end up getting on another drug or get the heroin while breaking my rules. Saying that lolicon is the lead-up to rape goes both ways. Lolicon isn't the problem, it's the specific individual that can't handle it at that point, and because of that I don't feel like everyone (well, everyone that views lolicon for that matter) shoudn't have to be cut off because some guy ends up going after some kid and forgot to clear his history.
I apply this to a lot of things. Marijuana. Some people can handle it, some people end up getting into the harder drugs (sometimes because they're led to it via means outside of themselves). Note that this is just an example, and I'm not going to further a debate on Marjiuana outside the context of Lolicon.
This isn't to say that lolicon is morally acceptable in my eyes, of course. I dislike it, find it wrong on many levels, and I would totally judge the hell out of the guy who was fapping to it. That's another thing - while some of you guys might be like, "Well, violent games don't make gamers violent people," you can't necessarily full-heartedly say, "Well, watching lolicon doesn't make them strange perverts." I mean, at least I can't. Then again, I'm the one that's usually against things like uh, well, furry and other strange fetishes, and it depends on the person watching it and how they handle it. I just can't relate or understand how or why they do it.
I do agree that it has a lot to do with the mentallity of the person reading lolicon (as well as the culture surrounding them) but using drugs and guns to compare them falls apart when you realise that both have a much higher potential to cause harm on yourself and other people. It's not like you're going to accidentally molest children when the safety of your lolicon comic is off. There's no need to regulate lolicon because you can't really abuse it. Going around and showing it to people it might shock and offend already falls under other laws.
I didn't say it should fall under a system and I already said they aren't really to scale.
[editline]16th October 2011[/editline]
Alright, my mom pretty much says that it should be illegal (I read some of this and my comment to her) and the reason why is she believes that it's not going to curb them. Even Garry said at some point on his website that porn is something that you eventually get bored of and desensitized to and you look for something more. Chances are that's child.
[b]EDIT:[/b] She also added that the intention of the art also plays a major role. If it's a 12 year old depicted as being sexy then it's an issue. If he didn't mean for it to come out look so young then that's where we can't draw a line.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;32812919]Alright, my mom pretty much says that it should be illegal (I read some of this and my comment to her) and the reason why is she believes that it's not going to curb them. Even Garry said at some point on his website that porn is something that you eventually get bored of and desensitized to and you look for something more. Chances are that's child.
[b]EDIT:[/b] She also added that the intention of the art also plays a major role. If it's a 12 year old depicted as being sexy then it's an issue. If he didn't mean for it to come out look so young then that's where we can't draw a line.[/QUOTE]
Why should lolicon be banned? Just like knives, it's the person's problems that end in something nasty, not the knife itself.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;32812919]I didn't say it should fall under a system and I already said they aren't really to scale.
[editline]16th October 2011[/editline]
Alright, my mom pretty much says that it should be illegal (I read some of this and my comment to her) and the reason why is she believes that it's not going to curb them. Even Garry said at some point on his website that porn is something that you eventually get bored of and desensitized to and you look for something more. Chances are that's child.
[b]EDIT:[/b] She also added that the intention of the art also plays a major role. If it's a 12 year old depicted as being sexy then it's an issue. If he didn't mean for it to come out look so young then that's where we can't draw a line.[/QUOTE]
Generally when you get bored of a certain kind of porn, you go look for more intense porn, not the physical action. Seeing as this type of illustrated porn is just that, illustrated, it's more than likely they'll seek more interesting illustrated fare than raping a child.
[QUOTE]Alright, my mom pretty much says that it should be illegal (I read some of this and my comment to her) and the reason why is she believes that it's not going to curb them. Even Garry said at some point on his website that porn is something that you eventually get bored of and desensitized to and you look for something more. Chances are that's child.[/QUOTE]
Can your mom back that claim up? I say it's the other way around, that lolicon would serve as an outlet, and therefore with lolicon being legal, it would be less likely for a pedo to molest a child.
And even if it is true, that still should not make it illegal. We can't illegalize things that just may or may not have contributed to a person committing a crime. If a person decides that lolicon is not enough for him, and then decides to go rape a child, then it is [I]his[/I] actions that are a problem, not lolicon.
[QUOTE][b]EDIT:[/b] She also added that the intention of the art also plays a major role. If it's a 12 year old depicted as being sexy then it's an issue. If he didn't mean for it to come out look so young then that's where we can't draw a line.[/QUOTE]
Why? If it's a drawing, it isn't an "issue", period.
If the debate is centered on Legal / Illegal the question at hand is: Is it socially acceptable?
Laws are mostly created on moral and social standards by the community.
Being bored of lolicon and raping children is a really weak argument.
I am bored of FPS shooters and yet I am not shooting up schools or anything.
There is no particular reason to ban it. All these "gateway" theories can easily be applied to anything.
Yesterday I was cutting salad, today I am cutting people.
[editline]16th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=areolop;32816788]If the debate is centered on Legal / Illegal the question at hand is: Is it socially acceptable?
Laws are mostly created on moral and social standards by the community.[/QUOTE]
Define socially acceptable? Until recently porn wasn't socially acceptable and in public everyone hated it but in private everyone fapped. Even now many things aren't socially acceptable and you will play a fool by saying you don't like this or that but in your [b]private[/b] time you will still perform that activity.
Being a nerd is not too socially acceptable in many circles. Then there's a problem that different circles have different morals, so the "acceptance" is different.
The same way it's not socially acceptable to execute people by beheading or stoning, but it is in most middle eastern cultures.
There really is nothing wrong with lolicon, it's just drawings.
The only problem arises when people with pedophilic tendencies start living out their fantasies in real life, however that is not reason enough to ban lolicon. The same way you can't ban knives because some people use them to kill others.
The only real reason is morals, which should never be a reason really.
"I find it gross, ban it NOW!"
I started talking to my dad about it and he pretty much said that taking an innocent figure like a child and destroying that image is pretty much disgusting, especially in something like lolicon. He does not support it one bit. I'll see if I can get him to argue.
I'm not with my mom at the moment but when I'll get back I'll let her give more to her argument.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;32818947]I started talking to my dad about it and he pretty much said that taking an innocent figure like a child and destroying that image is pretty much disgusting, especially in something like lolicon. He does not support it one bit. I'll see if I can get him to argue.
I'm not with my mom at the moment but when I'll get back I'll let her give more to her argument.[/QUOTE]
But the thing is, no one forces you to look at it. I don't like furry porn and I haven't seen one in quite a while. It's really easy to avoid and has no reason to be made illegal.
He follows the "I don't like, ban it" logic.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;32818947]I started talking to my dad about it and he pretty much said that taking an innocent figure like a child and destroying that image is pretty much disgusting, especially in something like lolicon. He does not support it one bit. I'll see if I can get him to argue.[/QUOTE]
Your dad's reasoning is the most overused defense on this topic. The only ones hurt are a few pencil sketches. There are no real victims involved.
[QUOTE=B!N4RY;32819187]Your dad's reasoning is the most overused defense on this topic. The only ones hurt are a few pencil sketches. There are no real victims involved.[/QUOTE]
The image gets defiled. As in if someone took your childhood hero and made a rule34 out of him. You'd feel disgusted. The viewer gets hurt in this case.
So?
Just saying. No, I do not think it's a reason to ban shit because it's a terrible reason for banning anything.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32819310]The image gets defiled. As in if someone took your childhood hero and made a rule34 out of him. You'd feel disgusted. The viewer gets hurt in this case.[/QUOTE]
If anyone is emotionally devastated to such a point that any kind of legal action could be considered due to a drawing, then that is pretty sad.
[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;32819310]You'd feel disgusted.[/QUOTE]
No, I'd just go "Eh" along with a shrug and move on.
I'm on the fence.
For side - It doesn't hurt anyone, and probably wasn't made by hurting anyone
Against side- Its disgusting because its still a child. I'd personally wouldn't watch it.
[QUOTE=Tuskin;32820353]Its disgusting because its still a child. I'd personally wouldn't watch it.[/QUOTE]
It's imaginary.
[QUOTE=Jookia;32820461]It's imaginary.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't matter you're still depicting and underage person.
[QUOTE=Tuskin;32822184]Doesn't matter you're still depicting and underage person.[/QUOTE]
Just keep telling yourself that she's actually 18 years old and everything will be okay
[B]WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.[/B]
Yes, YES, [B]YES IT ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE BANNED[/B].
What kind of sick fuck do you have to be to endorse this or even enable it to go on like you all propose we do? I didn't even know what the fuck this was before now, and I must be misreading here because it looks like what you are advocating is the legalization of [B]CHILD PORNOGRAPHY[/B]. I don't care if it's drawn it's the same damn thing. You idiots are allowing this to grow and corrupt our society when really we should continue to supress and burn it from existence altogether until there are no more pedophiles. First you give the fucking gays the right to marry, and now you want to legalize this [B]BULLSHIT[/B] and next up we're just going to take down the whole age of consent thing, right?
Guess what you get when you do that? decades of severe psychological damage to everyone, [I]complete and total societal collapse.[/I]
That's what you get when you allow shit such as homosexuality, atheism, and WORST OF ALL [B]PEDOPHILIA[/B] to exist in our world.
How about you all educate yourselves before you destroy the world we worked so hard to create, hmm?
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming/calm down" - Starpluck))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=BALLSANDASHWALL;32822625]
How about you all educate yourselves before you destroy the world we worked so hard to create, hmm?[/QUOTE]
Ironically, your post and reasoning are so dumb and uneducated I don't even know where to begin.
I'm against it.
While I agree that you can't and should not ban drawings, keep it to yourself.
My opinion also goes for the equally tasteless furry cub porn which is essentially the same thing, only people use "it's not a human so it's okay" card instead of "it's a drawing, not a real person". It still boils down to the same underage pornography and possibly implications of other debatable mental illnesses such as pedophilia.
[QUOTE=Crimor;32727779]I like how you call someone a sick fuck, simply because he has a different fetish than you do.
People should be more respecting of eachother, and instead of lashing out at others that has different opinions, verbally or physically, how about you respect their opinion/lifestyle/sexuality/fetish, and let them respect yours?[/QUOTE]
Lolicon isn't really considered a fetish to most people - it's more of a perversion because it's highly reminiscent of real children. Anatomically, they're underage, and it's obviously reasonable to assume that someone who is attracted to a realistic drawing of a prepubescent person may be inclined to lean toward that behavior in real life.
I don't know about this. I think people with an attraction to kids they can't control should get assessed psychologically and declared either safe or unsafe to be around children. People with urges they can control should be able to do what they want as long as they're not victimizing anyone, regardless of how sick society deems that person's fetishes may be.
On the other hand, if a person knows he or she has a real attraction to children and is fueled and encouraged by things like lolicon, I think that person has a responsibility to take certain steps in making it easier to resist, like abstaining from lolicon entirely. Know the risks, make sure they're not in a place where they're alone with kids often, etc. But if that person can get off to loli in private and never touches a kid, there's no problem.
That being said, I don't necessarily think lolicon actually translates into real life child molestation. For some people, it might satisfy those urges safely and keep the person from seeking out actual child porn, which would be a definite benefit in keeping loli legal. It would be nice if the demand for child porn went down because people with those inclinations found lolicon a safer but equally satisfying substitute.
Personally, lolicon really disturbs me. But I'm willing to see the positives and I don't think we should be so quick in criminalizing it.
[editline]16th October 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=BALLSANDASHWALL;32822625][B]WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.[/B]
Yes, YES, [B]YES IT ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE BANNED[/B].
What kind of sick fuck do you have to be to endorse this or even enable it to go on like you all propose we do? I didn't even know what the fuck this was before now, and I must be misreading here because it looks like what you are advocating is the legalization of [B]CHILD PORNOGRAPHY[/B]. I don't care if it's drawn it's the same damn thing. You idiots are allowing this to grow and corrupt our society when really we should continue to supress and burn it from existence altogether until there are no more pedophiles. First you give the fucking gays the right to marry, and now you want to legalize this [B]BULLSHIT[/B] and next up we're just going to take down the whole age of consent thing, right?
Guess what you get when you do that? decades of severe psychological damage to everyone, [I]complete and total societal collapse.[/I]
That's what you get when you allow shit such as homosexuality, atheism, and WORST OF ALL [B]PEDOPHILIA[/B] to exist in our world.
How about you all educate yourselves before you destroy the world we worked so hard to create, hmm?[/QUOTE]
Why do you hang around on a forum that is predominantly atheist and pro gay marriage? Not that I'm saying you should leave or anything. Obviously, we do need opposing viewpoints to have a debate.
[QUOTE=BALLSANDASHWALL;32822625] I don't care if it's drawn it's the same damn thing. [/QUOTE]
this definitely needs some explanation
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