Evolution of the Lightsaber Duel Special - General

hello yes i am a swordsman. Sword blades have weight to them, but a handy-dandy thing that they have is a pommel, which is used to counterbalance the weight of the blade, putting the center of balance usually somewhere around the crossguard, or just above it. Now you wouldn't be doing any flippy spinny shit in a real sword fight simply because it's not effective. Weight would have very little to do with it (Unless you're swinging a zweihander around), as most swordsmen are capable of wielding their blade easily. The pre-trilogy fights are mostly shit (in my opinion) for the fact that it relies so heavily upon such flashy fighting. I find it much more interesting to watch calculated parries and counter attacks than what Marzipas' gif shows.

[QUOTE=Corndog Ninja;49429533]Yeah, the prequels really do have problems with emotional weight. One thing that really annoys me is when people say "the Jedi restrain their emotions - fear, anger, etc - and are like calm monks" or "the stiffness of the Jedi is supposed to highlight Anakin's frustration with the council" because it's boring and leads to [I]suffocatingly[/I] bland performances when all the characters are told not to act. [video=youtube;7SqTR0DorSw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SqTR0DorSw[/video] Like, I've heard this described as a powerful scene because "Obi-Wan never shows emotion so this little bit of emoting is really striking" but really it just comes across as a flat performance.[/QUOTE] honestly the concept of them being super rational and honor-bound showed promise and could have been really interesting, the problem is they never actually resist any kind of temptation because they're not even characters. the one time obi wan goes out of his way to challenge someone to a fair duel, he winds up shooting them in the chest two minutes later with a weapon he himself says is uncivilized mace windu casually slices a guy's head off and leaves his son to grieve by the dismembered corpse there is no code of honor for them to abide by so they just wantonly kill people in the heat of the moment by any means necessary and with no hesitation. they're just T-800's with laser swords

I still think ESB had the best saber duels but I haven't seen TFA yet. It had that nice balance between the fast paced speed of the prequels and the skilled craft from the original trilogy. We saw a apprentice versus a master showing the difference in martial combat and usage of the force such as augmenting physical jumping strength/power to escape a sealing chamber and using telekinesis to throw objects at Luke to overwhelm him.

[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;49419083]They were way too danc-ey for me. That couple with the fact that 90% of the swings made have no way of actually connecting with the opponent just makes them all feel very... bleh.[/QUOTE] I think the Prequels handled dueling in 'realistic' way in that if you put two people who could sort of feel what was going to happen before it happened, could position themselves accordingly for it, it would sort of be an endless flashy dance. I mean the flashiness makes sense I think TFA's duels were perfect, though. They were fantastic

[QUOTE=cdr248;49426528]It's not about what it actually is, it's about what it's trying to convey. Star Wars is heavily based in arthurian legend and thus, Lucas wanted the fights to be similar to medieval sword fighting. Fights would be highly lethal but movement would have to be slow and deliberate due to the weight of the weapon.[/QUOTE] I personally dont want it to be like that. My sole opinion, but jedi knight/jedi academy/kotor jumpey and whizzling duels that portray jedi and sith more like space ninjas than space knights fit the theme much more. Especially how every duel in SW universe ends with a trick of sort, it's rarely a question of who fences better. [editline]1st January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Cone;49431164]honestly the concept of them being super rational and honor-bound showed promise and could have been really interesting, the problem is they never actually resist any kind of temptation because they're not even characters. the one time obi wan goes out of his way to challenge someone to a fair duel, he winds up shooting them in the chest two minutes later with a weapon he himself says is uncivilized mace windu casually slices a guy's head off and leaves his son to grieve by the dismembered corpse there is no code of honor for them to abide by so they just wantonly kill people in the heat of the moment by any means necessary and with no hesitation. they're just T-800's with laser swords[/QUOTE] Well uh, their code is not to fight honorary. The code is that they only fight when absolutely nececary. But when they do - they win. It's nothing unusual for a fighter to want to win, is it? This is what I really like about star wars. Superheroes (let's put it straight, jedi are the superheroes of the univerce) still have to kill. They are not pretentious questionably good batman-esque knights that follow their pretentious moral code even when it contradicts common sense. You can be super good in SW universe, but if you don't crush your enemy, he will crush you.

[QUOTE=kyle877;49429846]hello yes i am a swordsman. Sword blades have weight to them, but a handy-dandy thing that they have is a pommel, which is used to counterbalance the weight of the blade, putting the center of balance usually somewhere around the crossguard, or just above it. Now you wouldn't be doing any flippy spinny shit in a real sword fight simply because it's not effective. Weight would have very little to do with it (Unless you're swinging a zweihander around), as most swordsmen are capable of wielding their blade easily. The pre-trilogy fights are mostly shit (in my opinion) for the fact that it relies so heavily upon such flashy fighting. I find it much more interesting to watch calculated parries and counter attacks than what Marzipas' gif shows.[/QUOTE] pommels aren't for counterbalancing the weight of swords the balancing of a sword is dependent on it's shape. Medieval european blades, and most blades in general, get thinner towards the point. That's what gives them their center of balance. i mean if you really wanted the pommel to affect the balance of your sword you would need a big ass pommel

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49433875]pommels aren't for counterbalancing the weight of swords the balancing of a sword is dependent on it's shape. Medieval european blades, and most blades in general, get thinner towards the point. That's what gives them their center of balance. i mean if you really wanted the pommel to affect the balance of your sword you would need a big ass pommel[/QUOTE] [quote]The pommel (Anglo-Norman pomel "little apple"[1]) is an enlarged fitting at the top of the handle. They were originally developed to prevent the sword slipping from the hand. From around the 11th century in Europe they became a counterweight to the blade.[2] This gave the sword a point of balance closer to the hilt allowing a more fluid fighting style. Depending on sword design and swordsmanship style, the pommel may also be used to strike the opponent (e.g., using the Mordhau technique).[/quote] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilt[/url] educate thineself, peasant.

[QUOTE=kyle877;49433997][url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilt[/url] educate thineself, peasant.[/QUOTE] well yeah okay [I]maybe for rapiers[/I] but I thought we were talking about knights and by extension hand and a half swords [img]http://www.medievalcollectibles.com/images/Product/large/07-88HNH.png[/img] in which case the pommel really isn't primarily there for weight redistribution

have you ever actually used a sword?

[QUOTE=kyle877;49434025]have you ever actually used a sword?[/QUOTE] If I said yes, would that suddenly make pommels more or less heavy relative to the average medieval sword blade?

No, but it would certainly invalidate what you're saying. Observe: [t]http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/images/POB.jpg[/t] This is the point of balance. Every sword worth it's salt will have it's balance somewhere in this range. (barring the longer curved blades, meant exclusively for the choppy chop) [t]http://filmswords.com/images/comparison2.jpg[/t] This is an example of swords without pommels. Exposed tang. [B][I][U]they will not balance nearly as well as a sword with a pommel for pretty obvious reasons.[/U][/I][/B] The pommel is there to counteract some of the weight of the blade in order to make it a more efficient weapon and to make wielding it less of a chore. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y40snITLi6o[/media]

Count Dooku's scene was probably the best because Dooku was the best, I love fencing.

Episode 5 and 6 and surprisingly, Episode 1 had some good lightsaber duels Episode 4 was alright i guess. Episode 2 with yoda jumping around and Episode 3 with the emperor and Obi vs Anakin however was way over the top.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;49429780]Do you really think medieval knights swung their swords around like this?[/QUOTE] Considering they take after Kendo, then yes; not to this extreme however. Katanas and similar Japanese weaponry arent as heavy and allow for a lot of maneuverability.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;49433867]Well uh, their code is not to fight honorary. The code is that they only fight when absolutely nececary. But when they do - they win. It's nothing unusual for a fighter to want to win, is it? This is what I really like about star wars. Superheroes (let's put it straight, jedi are the superheroes of the univerce) still have to kill. They are not pretentious questionably good batman-esque knights that follow their pretentious moral code even when it contradicts common sense. You can be super good in SW universe, but if you don't crush your enemy, he will crush you.[/QUOTE] except that's not true. in RotJ Luke stakes his life twice on the hope that Vader can still be redeemed, and consciously refuses to kill him upon realizing what he'd become, something even foreshadowed in Empire. common sense would have been to kill Vader at the first opportunity - it's becoming a Jedi that lets Luke save him and ultimately stop the emperor. when you take out that central conflict between doing the easy thing and doing the right thing, you don't have a bunch of enlightened monks, you have [I]completely nothing[/I]. hey, anyone remember Mace Windu? remember how his complete lack of expression or perceptiveness was a result of conscious repression to quell personal conflict rather than, you know, just plain vapidity? remember all those times Qui Gon Gin applied his calm, restrained, collected Jedi teachings? you know, by being a ruthlessly pragmatic but also stupid and dangerous and extremely dull asshole? now i'm not saying that characters who want to win at any cost are necessarily bad, Han did shoot first. but it unquestionably makes for really really REALLY boring and robotic space monks.

[QUOTE=Cone;49434966]except that's not true. in RotJ Luke stakes his life twice on the hope that Vader can still be redeemed, and consciously refuses to kill him upon realizing what he'd become, something even foreshadowed in Empire. common sense would have been to kill Vader at the first opportunity - it's becoming a Jedi that lets Luke save him and ultimately stop the emperor. when you take out that central conflict between doing the easy thing and doing the right thing, you don't have a bunch of enlightened monks, you have [I]completely nothing[/I]. hey, anyone remember Mace Windu? remember how his complete lack of expression or perceptiveness was a result of conscious repression to quell personal conflict rather than, you know, just plain vapidity? remember all those times Qui Gon Gin applied his calm, restrained, collected Jedi teachings? you know, by being a ruthlessly pragmatic but also stupid and dangerous and extremely dull asshole? now i'm not saying that characters who want to win at any cost are necessarily bad, Han did shoot first. but it unquestionably makes for really really REALLY boring and robotic space monks.[/QUOTE] Mace Windu is indeed dull, but I disagree to Qui Gon Gin and Obi-Wan being dull. Luke wasn't very practical ever, but it was a good choice to attempt to save his father, the same way (ep 7 spoilers)[sp]Solo sacrifices himself to convert his son to the light side[/sp]. It's a common jedi play. In the end Luke was victorius with these impractical moves. The emperor was also absolutely impractical in RotJ. Instead of killing Luke he sort of sits and watches Luke convert his padawan to the light side and kill him. Vader is impractical when he constantly insists on meeting Luke 1 vs 1 and ignoring his friends blowing up Death Stars. SW isn't very practical in total. The backflips fit pretty well into that impractical universe where people disregard common sense (due to the Force establishing a balance throught their actions).

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;49434765]Considering they take after Kendo, then yes; not to this extreme however. Katanas and similar Japanese weaponry arent as heavy and allow for a lot of maneuverability.[/QUOTE] That's a myth, katana's are of similar weight or heavier than a longsword due to the thicker blade. Longswords overall offer more maneuverability than a katana in what you can do. Katanas are exclusively slashing weapons, you essentially only utilize the blade to attack. Longswords are slashing and stabbing, and their cruciform crossguards allow the sword to be used as a lever to get your opponent to the ground (hook behind the neck) or as a bludgeoning instrument (a murder strike). You could say its balanced by katanas being better for slicing through flesh because of their curved shape.

[QUOTE=Corndog Ninja;49429533]Yeah, the prequels really do have problems with emotional weight. One thing that really annoys me is when people say "the Jedi restrain their emotions - fear, anger, etc - and are like calm monks" or "the stiffness of the Jedi is supposed to highlight Anakin's frustration with the council" because it's boring and leads to [I]suffocatingly[/I] bland performances when all the characters are told not to act. [video=youtube;7SqTR0DorSw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SqTR0DorSw[/video] Like, I've heard this described as a powerful scene because "Obi-Wan never shows emotion so this little bit of emoting is really striking" but really it just comes across as a flat performance.[/QUOTE] It works better in writing, lack of emotions are a display of his discipline, but in his head his thoughts are running around. The books based off of the PT are a lot better than the movies, funnily enough.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;49429780]Do you really think medieval knights swung their swords around like this?[/QUOTE] Absolutely not with one hand, and definitely not on the battlefield, but swinging flashy moves to intimidate your opponent absolutely existed in duels. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aeMftUpvgA[/media] (skip towards end of video for a fast demonstration) [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nk5GnjaB7s[/media] (this is admittedly deliberately slowed down since they don't wear protective gear) That said, PT fights are still shit, for a host of reasons. Mostly of course that the saber fights in the prequel happen because "they need to happen, it's Star wars, duh!" where as the fights in the OT happen because it needs to say something about the characters in the fight. Obi wan is developed from the EP 4 fight, Luke and Vader is developed from the EPV and VI fights, there's a tonne of emotion in all of them, creating a shit-tonne of tension (esp for a first-time watcher). Not only that, but the cinematography is top notch in the OT fights, where Lucas will continously size up not only the opponents, but also where they will fight before the fight actually happens, which helps a great deal in not confusing the audience. Lot of PT fights take place in CGscapes with no real continuity, and thus we are forced to pay no attention to the actual place they're fighting in. This cinematography is what TFA lacks, by the way. The choreography is improved, sure but the actual filming of the fights are sub-par at best. Honestly, I have a background in theatrical and historical fencing (as in the martial art), I too could make a long video explaining why OT best, PT sucks and TFA is ok at best. Would anyone watch that?

[QUOTE=simkas;49419486]"Dynamic"? Well then good job, George Lucas has successfully tricked you into thinking they're good. "Dynamic" doesn't mean just pointlessly jumping in the air and waving the saber around for no reason other than just to be super flashy. You fell for Lucas' tricks.[/QUOTE] The ENTIRE point of watching a movie is to fall for the film-maker's tricks. [editline]5th January 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=MaverickIB;49419565]True masters of an art know how to utilize it in the simplest most energy efficient ways. Master Kendo practitioners aren't spinning around doing crazy stuff, they are relaxed and can often look "bored," giving the illusion of simplicity and ease despite being the complete opposite. The prequel fights would have made a little more sense if Anakin/young Obi were the ones jumping around spinning their sabers and shit while Qui-gon/old Obi/Maul stayed grounded with concise movements and strikes. The OT kind of showed that dynamic in the way Vader seemed like he barely moved at all when fighting yet oddly winning confrontations. He no longer needed to swing that shit all over the goddamn place, he knew how to win using little energy because he was a true master of the art. It's kind of like watching BJJ. Untrained individuals will squirm and move all over the place, desperately trying to change position or pull off submissions. Experts will sit there and seemingly not move at all, but the trained eye can catch them ever so slightly hooking a heel, setting up a pass, calmly controlling the fight.[/QUOTE] It's hilarious whenever Lighstabers are brought up everyone becomes a kendo master. Vader made the most of little energy becaues 75% of his body runs on energy cell. Do you know how boring your view of Star Wars is? "Everyone fights the same" is dumb, especially for a story that revolves around character interaction. Anakin is a huge hothead but it's somehow out of character for him to do flips and stuff, even though even in TPM he liked trick maneuvers.